Crafting in 2.0

[JimG]

Exactly. The problem I really have is that crafting has gone from a system that could potentially help gear my alts and guild to a system for players with tons of resources to make even more. It will be purely a system for making piles of credits by the players who have grinded out the most gear fastest.

Well, crafting has always been one of those things where you had to be flexible and focus on the new hot thing with each update. I crafted and sold a ton of augmented gear before they came out with the kits. When HK was released and people were getting him at low levels but he had all his level 50 gear, I crafted and sold a ton of droid armor. You've always had to sort of keep up with the times if you wanted to make money at crafting. For me, it's just gotten to the point that I no longer want to spend the effort it takes to stay ahead of the new crafting trends every time there's an update. So I basically only use it for gearing alts right now.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Or like it was from 1.2-1.7, make pve and pvp gear REable for exotic mats as well. Adding scarcity to these mats and gear isn't good for the game.

 

This update definitely made the mistake of catering to ONLY the top tier raiders, which are truly the minority of swtor.

 

Yeah, because only hardcore raiders will ever get the gear

 

Wrong, Hardcore raiders will get the gear first. Other raiders will get it at a slower rate.

 

Just like pre-2.0 people will get into top tier raid gear more slowly.

 

And as for the claim the PvPers get nothing they have the Partisan and Conqueror gear to work for.

[Andryah]

Well, crafting has always been one of those things where you had to be flexible and focus on the new hot thing with each update. I crafted and sold a ton of augmented gear before they came out with the kits. When HK was released and people were getting him at low levels but he had all his level 50 gear, I crafted and sold a ton of droid armor. You've always had to sort of keep up with the times if you wanted to make money at crafting.

 

Exactly.

 

For me, it's just gotten to the point that I no longer want to spend the effort it takes to stay ahead of the new crafting trends every time there's an update. So I basically only use it for gearing alts right now.

 

Yeah... not my cup of tea either. I am a GTN mini-gamer. I bailed on crafting early on in the game and only do specific items for leveling alts. I jumped back in for the great droid gear surge for a few weeks.... but knew that was going to be short lived.. so it was just one time opportunity filling short term market need.

[Khevar]

...

 

Yeah... not my cup of tea either. I am a GTN mini-gamer. I bailed on crafting early on in the game and only do specific items for leveling alts. I jumped back in for the great droid gear surge for a few weeks.... but knew that was going to be short lived.. so it was just one time opportunity filling short term market need.

For me it was an aspect of completionism and convenience. On my first toon, I noticed that gear availability on the GTN never matched my need. I would use quest rewards for a while, but when things got tough I'd go to the GTN to purchase stuff to fill in the holes. And all to often there was nothing in my level range and/or for my class.

 

I saw the limitations of only having one crafter and ended up making 4 more toons all at the same time, one for each crafing profession. I would level one, but periodically log into others and do missions and crafting on them. Oddly enough, I have a level 12 Powertech who managed to get Underworld Trading to 400 with a single companion. O.o

 

I would occasionally make money, but it was mainly for my own convenience. In fact, the main reason I started learning the grade 27 schematics is that I had 8 level 50s by then and I wanted to short-cut the gearing process for all of them. I sold stuff for a profit mainly to afford the raw materials to make gear for my own toons. And because I was in an active raid group, I also filled a lot of orders for friends and guildies for the gear I had learned.

 

In general, I recognize that the face of crafting has changed markedly, and I'm adapting to it. The biggest frustrations I have are things that I don't understand. What in all the nine hells of Beppu is Holinium used for? Why is it classified as a metal when it returns from a compound mission? Why is a "crit" rewarded by NOT giving the Turadium I so deparately want?

 

The lack of ability to craft Underworld gear doesn't bother me. And a funny side effect of the truly horrendous gear itemization on both Verpine and Black Market means that there is likely to be a need for crafted Arkanian unlettered mods and specific enhancements. It's too early the gearing of my main toon to lose a grade 69 drop for RE, but I hope soon I will be able to start doing that.

[Mallorik]

The only changes I agree with is not allowing the very top tier gear to be made and sold on the gtn, people need something to strive for and a reward for accomplishing their goals, outfitting yourself and all your alts with end game gear that you bought with credits you made from selling trinkets off the cartel market does not do that, in fact it is just p2w.

 

I think the other stuff was over the top and not needed.

[Thundergulch]

Here are the problems with this model though. Pvpers and casual players want to make money too. This system totally alienates some 70-90% of the game's population.

 

My answer isn't usually the popular one:

PVP'ers wouldn't need to craft end game raid gear if they don't raid.

Casual players don't need to craft end game raid gear if they don't raid.

There are ways to make money in crafting without crafting the end game stuff.

The problem I have is letting everyone get end game gear if they don't do the content... because I was decked out in full 63's before I even set foot into TFB. And this made that OP almost trivial once I learned the mechanics of the fight.

I didn't feel a sense of accomplishment beating the bosses in there because the gear that dropped wasn't an upgrade.

Set bonus aside, Marauder set bonus was terrible and i didn't need one.

[dscount]

Perhaps I've had some good luck, but I've also noted the purple crafting mat requirement has also been cut in half, so the ultimate return seems to be about the same...

 

That said, slicing is not one of the professions I have capped right now, and perhaps also you've run into a string of bad luck mission wise...

 

Umm.. Last time I checked a purple 22 Augment took 4 purple (Neural) and the new 28 augments take 4 purple (Thermal). If slicing is only returning ONE or TWO then it's dramatically LESS than the 2-4 that used to drop instead.

[IronAznSnsation]

My answer isn't usually the popular one:

PVP'ers wouldn't need to craft end game raid gear if they don't raid.

Casual players don't need to craft end game raid gear if they don't raid.

There are ways to make money in crafting without crafting the end game stuff.

The problem I have is letting everyone get end game gear if they don't do the content... because I was decked out in full 63's before I even set foot into TFB. And this made that OP almost trivial once I learned the mechanics of the fight.

I didn't feel a sense of accomplishment beating the bosses in there because the gear that dropped wasn't an upgrade.

Set bonus aside, Marauder set bonus was terrible and i didn't need one.

 

This post isn't only about the one quote you pulled out of the 1000 words I posted. Bioware seems really worried about fairness, and that's the point I was making with the alienation. Pvpers and casual players alike are going to complain if they can't do what hardcore raiders are able to do (and vice versa). Of course there are other ways of earning. In fact, you'll be somewhat hard pressed to earn ANYTHING without going for something other than arkanian. The only patterns worth making will be barrels, hilts, and MAYBE regular mods(non-lettered).

 

The whole point to my entire post was about how they trivialized end game crafting. Again: you can only craft Arkanian, and you can only farm the mats to make it once you're a good way into Arkanian or better via Scum and Villainy aka Darvannis HM (unless you're skilled and in Dread Guard). Even then, the mods/enh/armorings are so readily available via FPs or SM OPs, that there is no point to even crafting! (Hilts and barrels might be the exception). Hence the paradox I replied about a few lines later:

 

... There is a paradox inherent in such a system: to be able to farm these Generators, you need to the gear you are trying to make to be able to do it easily. In other words, you can't craft the gear for yourself til you basically have no need for the gear. Even if you can craft the gear, you will only be able to sell it to the rich, because of how readily available most of the gear is in HM 55 FPs and SM Ops. To sum up my point: they have created a system of crafting where it is no longer useful to directly gear up - it can only be used to earn currency once you've already surpassed the need to craft.

 

 

I agree with Mallorik that it's not so bad that they took away the BEST tier from crafting. It's that even the second highest tier, which is craftable, has been ruined.

 

The fact is, they've drastically changed the system and have killed the market. The GTN on our server is a ghost town. People don't even buy the lowbie stuff, as I'm told by fellow crafters, because it doesn't even work in PvP matches due to bolster changes.

 

To be honest, if you get a sense of accomplishment from gearing via flashpoints and operations, you need to not dip into the end game crafting, even if it is available. It's not really the fault of the crafters that you didn't feel you accomplished anything when you did TFB. I know plenty of players who would not get stuff crafted when they hit 50. I'm sure they're gearing the same way for 55.

 

 

PS All the people arguing about how augments are/are not cheaper to craft, again this thread is about 30 grade item modifications. You are extremely off topic....but yes it is 4 thermal regulators per augment and there is only 1 thermal for each slicing crit, which is also ridiculous because they don't happen often....BUT this is completely off topic, based on the context of what I've written, and only slightly related through the fact that the forum post is titled "Crafting in 2.0" instead of "End game crafting in 2.0" or "How Bioware completely gave the middle finger to end game crafters" Talking about this and other glitches, such as Hollinium, is a moot point. Bioware is working on the problem, according to the DEV TRACKER. Please refrain from including these topics in your replies. Thank you!

 

OFF TOPIC THOUGHT:

 

You know what's really funny? They take 2 steps forward with the launch of 1.2, by allowing crafting of all end tiers. Then a year later in 2.0, they take 3 steps back, ruining all markets and bugging a bunch of the missions. Well, at least my biochem can have a reusable stim/adrenal that doesn't suck again. It only took them since 1.1 (mid January of last year)

 

Edited April 18, 2013 by IronAznSnsation

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Pvpers and casual players alike are going to complain if they can't do what hardcore raiders are able to do (and vice versa).

 

Why are they going to complain?

 

If I don't run HM/NiM Ops why should I be able to get BiS gear that is only really needed in those ops? Why should I get the crafting mats that drop from those Ops (which allows me to craft gear that is needed for those Ops)?

 

Now the very best PvE gear comes from doing the hardest PvE content, if you don't want to do that stuff you can still get PvE gear that is almost as good and that is more than sufficient for the rest of the PvE content.

 

28 Gear is pretty easy to get and is more than sufficient to do all the PvE content in the game.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[AlrikFassbauer]

Me, I'm currently fine whith what I can craft (u50).

Why should I go out and craft expensive stuff when I didn't even reach those levels yet ?

 

I craft for fun; nothing else matters to me.

[IronAznSnsation]

Why are they going to complain?

 

If I don't run HM/NiM Ops why should I be able to get BiS gear that is only really needed in those ops? Why should I get the crafting mats that drop from those Ops (which allows me to craft gear that is needed for those Ops)?

 

Now the very best PvE gear comes from doing the hardest PvE content, if you don't want to do that stuff you can still get PvE gear that is almost as good and that is more than sufficient for the rest of the PvE content.

 

28 Gear is pretty easy to get and is more than sufficient to do all the PvE content in the game.

 

I point out that this isn't the point of the post, and some other guy comes and quotes the part of my reply that has nothing to do with it. Awesome.

 

Also, the very best craftable gear comes from the hardest PvE content. It's actually the second best gear, and most of it is available in FPs in Ops, which is one of the points of my post. Why make 30s so hard to craft if the gear is so easily obtainable.

 

Also, 28 gear is only sufficient if you're skilled and familiar with the content. It's only a baby step in front of dread guard. Trust me when I say that you can have no carries in your group, if you want to run with just 28s. Scum and Villainy HM is balanced for near full Arkanian. If you thought EC EV KP and TFB were the only ops, then yes 28s are good enough for all PVE content. "More than sufficient" isn't accurate when talking about full 28s.

Edited April 18, 2013 by IronAznSnsation

[Thundergulch]

This post isn't only about the one quote you pulled out of the 1000 words I posted.

 

If you expect me to reply to every point that you made in your wall of text blog post, you're S.O.L.

[Jaizo]

Crafting in 2.0 ?

 

What was done to it............nothing....

 

FAILURE!

[Andryah]

Why make 30s so hard to craft if the gear is so easily obtainable.

 

Because if they continue to allow crafters to produce content that nullifies the need to run end game content... most people won't run end game content... and will then proceed to QQ that there is nothing to do.

 

It's a delicate balancing act.. they have gotten better with it.. but it's hard to balance and they may never get it perfect.. because players are clever and always find the path of least resistance.

 

You are looking at this from a crafters perspective. The game is bigger and broader then just crafting though.

[Levity]

The change in crafting that I posted was about the limited supply of Mass Manipulation Generators, which only appear in SnV HM. As 28 mods are only slightly better than Dread Guard, it is not really a integral step in the gearing process. Grade 30 items, even the A and B versions, are, however, a significant improvement from the 27 tier. These require 4 Exotic Equalizers and 1 Mass Manipulation Generators. SnV is completable with a coordinated and knowledgeable group in DG, but the effort is a strain without Arkanian. Mass Manipulation Generators can only be used to create Arkanian ie Grade 30 items. There is a paradox inherent in such a system: to be able to farm these Generators, you need to the gear you are trying to make to be able to do it easily. In other words, you can't craft the gear for yourself til you basically have no need for the gear. Even if you can craft the gear, you will only be able to sell it to the rich, because of how readily available most of the gear is in HM 55 FPs and SM Ops. To sum up my point: they have created a system of crafting where it is no longer useful to directly gear up - it can only be used to earn currency once you've already surpassed the need to craft.

 

I suppose you could argue that you can use these mats to gear your alts and guildies who need them, but even with a run on SnV HM, you can only hope to craft a maximum of 3 items per week, and there are 8-16 other people in that raid with you.

 

I'm going to disagree on this. People with money don't mind spending their money to gear a character. I just spent 2 mil buying all 66 mods/enhances because I just got sick of the crap equipment from the HM FPs. I noticed a humungous increase in my dps from 63-66 mods/enhances since I was able to optimize a lot easier from buying what I want compared to settling with a bunch of pos mods from the FPs. I guarantee people are still making money off of these mods/enhances.

 

I also disagree with crafting the end game gear. You stated it makes people who put more time into the game become more able to make credits with this system.... That's how it always is, and it was even more so present with people making end game mods/enhances/hilts/barrels. If you are a casual player, then you don't need the end game gear, the tier lower will do it for you just fine, and you STILL get ult. comms from doing weeklies etc. so you still have access to gearing to the ultimate gear via casual means. Just becomes it's not a click and buy scenerio doesn't mean it bars people from their ability to acquire.

 

Edit: If not apparent, my point in the first paragraph was that people can craft even lower lvl mods/enhances/hilts/barrels and be profitable, so what's the issue? If you are being profitable off of crafting (which is what crafters usually want to do) then who cares if they can't craft elder game till they are in it? Which BTW that system hasn't changed.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Levity

[Khevar]

...

 

Also, the very best craftable gear comes from the hardest PvE content. It's actually the second best gear, and most of it is available in FPs in Ops, which is one of the points of my post. Why make 30s so hard to craft if the gear is so easily obtainable.

 

...

(emphasis mine)

 

Just a comment on this. Since 2.0 has dropped, I've now gotten a number of Black Market drops from flashpoints that have been so poorly optimized, I've kept my old DG stuff in. Even the Elite Comms I can spend will get me gear filled with lettered mods and endurance-heavy enhancements.

 

I looked over at the Verpine gear, and it is similar. So many lettered mods. :/

 

I think that players who have learned good grade 30 enhancements and unlettered mods will be able to provide better gear than most stock Verpine and even some of the Underworld stuff. So if anything, the truly horrendous gear itemization has meant that end-game crafting isn't dead, despite not being able to made level 72 gear.

[tanerb]

I.

[*] Leveling gear: Ka-boom, there went the market. So easily obtainable now via planetary comms. Want purple Rakata mods for your new level 50? Go do some heroics on Dromund Kaas. Want some lower level mods? Go do some heroics on Dromund Kaas. There's no weekly cap anymore so this is even easier. (For the record, I'm glad the cap was removed. Besides, Dromund Kaas is awesome!) Note if these mods were BOP, the situation would be very different!

 

On my server the market for crafted mods has totally collapsed at all levels.

 

Same in my market and I really don't understand why this is done. I am not saying they shouldn't be available via comms but there should be some kind of convertability. Right now planet comms are very easy to get and needs to be spend asap . So whatever comm vendors are selling lost the entire worth compared to things they don't sell. And what is the criteria? why not implants and augments too?

[Uvirith]

EA doesnt want casuals to make money without the cartel market. whats a more perfect way to ensure that than to move crafting to the hardcore-raiders, the ones who dont buy that much at the CM anyway.

IF you think about it, the marketingdepartment at EA is genius. I admire them

[Ziso]

Another issue is I had my free 500 coins yesterday so grabbed a cartel pack and still getting "rare" grade 6 materials that are worthless. Some of the "rare" ones I have stacks of 500+ by missions trying to get purples and prices on GTN you can hardly give them away. Least before when you needed molecular stabilisers you had a chance of some from packs but now the "rare" crafting materials are way way behind whats needed.

[IronAznSnsation]

(emphasis mine)

 

Just a comment on this. Since 2.0 has dropped, I've now gotten a number of Black Market drops from flashpoints that have been so poorly optimized, I've kept my old DG stuff in. Even the Elite Comms I can spend will get me gear filled with lettered mods and endurance-heavy enhancements.

 

I looked over at the Verpine gear, and it is similar. So many lettered mods. :/

 

I think that players who have learned good grade 30 enhancements and unlettered mods will be able to provide better gear than most stock Verpine and even some of the Underworld stuff. So if anything, the truly horrendous gear itemization has meant that end-game crafting isn't dead, despite not being able to made level 72 gear.

 

I already made the point about barrels, hilts and maybe non-lettered mods selling. People will spend money, but crafting isn't just money. It's utility and convenience. Again, I've conceded that the top tier need not be craftable, but I feel like the rest is, as Mallorik said, over the top. They've drastically reduced the demand for the top craftable tier by putting them in all forms of PVE. That's part of the the original post. Read through all the OP and replies if you want my full opinion. It's a lot to catch up on, but I think we'll avoid a lot of backtracking replies..

 

Second, black market/arkanian lettered mods are better than DG. Here is the math:

Dread - 56 Main stat and 44 power/crit

30a mods - 77 Main stat and 29 power/crit

For a loss of 15 power, you gain 21 main stat. Then add the 1.1x multiplier for sin buff and a your class multiplier (6% Sin 9% Agent etc), and you can see that the new 30a mods are better than Dread Guard. The endurance is just a bonus.

 

But you are right about Verpine and Underworld gear. The non-lettered Arkanian will be better than lettered top tier. If you're having to earn all the gear, devs love to waste your time min/maxing.

Edited April 19, 2013 by IronAznSnsation

[JuicyJustice]

no aznsensation, you are not allowed to quit this game

[Amberres]

Like said before.

 

Give us the opportunity to create - crafting only - sets with unique (small) set bonuses.

[asbalana]

EA doesnt want casuals to make money without the cartel market. whats a more perfect way to ensure that than to move crafting to the hardcore-raiders, the ones who dont buy that much at the CM anyway.

IF you think about it, the marketingdepartment at EA is genius. I admire them

 

That may backfire badly. Credits are made from CM resales. If the credits are shifted to the hard core who you say do not buy much CM stuff, then the rest of the players will have less to buy CM stuff on the GTN. If the resale market goes down, then there is less reason to spend cash on the CM to convert to credits.

 

The changes to the crafting system and to the comm system have been extensive, has anyone seen an offical post or comment as to the reasons?

[Khevar]

...

 

Second, black market/arkanian lettered mods are better than DG. Here is the math:

Dread - 56 Main stat and 44 power/crit

30a mods - 77 Main stat and 29 power/crit

For a loss of 15 power, you gain 21 main stat. Then add the 1.1x multiplier for sin buff and a your class multiplier (6% Sin 9% Agent etc), and you can see that the new 30a mods are better than Dread Guard. The endurance is just a bonus.

 

...

This is true. It's just such a shame to go from grade 27 to grade 30 and get a piddling 6 point stat increase, when the unlettered mod is a 15-point increase.

 

With 9 spots for an upgraded mod you can either add 135 points to your stat budget or 54 points.

 

Similar with the enhancements. There are so many endurance-heavy enhancements. Going from an Initiative 27 (60/44) to a Proficient 30 (72/29) actually reduces the stat budget by 3 points.

 

So the crafter that learns the Agile Mod 30 or the Initiative Enhancement 30 is going to bring so much to the players that are trying to gear up.

[Gun_Kitty]

Slow the players down and force them to complete the most difficult content in the game. Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

Completing NiM TFB and HM S&V would make me feel like i have really accomplished something so few have done to be able to get the mats from these operations and craft the gear everyone wants and not many people can make. sound like a win win to me.

 

and it is true that spending 700-850k to get a mod or armoring that will drop in a FP that takes 20 min to complete, does not make sense to me. However getting the 72 lvl items will actually make more sense once we start to see more of those items on the GTN.

 

I think we all need to realize that it is a good thing that we are not all farming NiM TFB and HM S&V 3 weeks after launch of 2.0, because it just adds to the longevity of SWTOR and in turn keeps players playing the game.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Gun_Kitty