Lethality Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 no you don't. Stop making up reasons for having a dps meter ingame. We all know where this ends because we all played WoW. "LFM False Emperor min DPS 5K" Just play the game. I'm not making anything up. No amount of you "getting better just playing the game" will be able to beat my measurement, analysis and adjustment of the numbers. That is the nature of a rules based combat system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linuraleal Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 no you don't. Stop making up reasons for having a dps meter ingame. We all know where this ends because we all played WoW. "LFM False Emperor min DPS 5K" Just play the game. A million times this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clankyasp Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I can go for bio easily, while my team kills a boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Or you know, you can actually pay attention to players and figure out who is doing what. Ok tell me how you figure out which player is actually using a dps rotation and which player is just pressing random buttons and getting carried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 No! Enough of this begging for meters. Learn to do without or go back to that other game. Everquest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 no you don't. Stop making up reasons for having a dps meter ingame. We all know where this ends because we all played WoW. "LFM False Emperor min DPS 5K" Just play the game. Why shouldn't a player advertise their damage output if they're a damage class? Why should I not have the right to choose who I want to come with me based on their ability to output damage? That's the problem with your argument. Even if DPS meters would end up with people being judged based on their ability, you've yet to explain why that's a bad thing. Guess what, discriminating against unskilled people is okay. There's nothing wrong with a meritocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Guess what, discriminating against unskilled people is okay. There's nothing wrong with a meritocracy. It is when you are a bad player and you don't care to do the work to get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorqueoMilitaris Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Problem is, 16 people kills a boss, but 4 of them doesnt do anything, just using some basic skills, running around like an idiot, hits wrong button many times, makes the halers and tanks more busy. Other 12 kills the boss actually, but those 4 has same chance to roll on drops, and get them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnieT Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Pay attention to other people....that's a great counter argument. Yeah let me try and fight this difficult raid encounter while I pay attention to everyone in the raid to see if it looks like they're really doing any decent dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jettemakaron Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Problem is, 16 people kills a boss, but 4 of them doesnt do anything, just using some basic skills, running around like an idiot, hits wrong button many times, makes the halers and tanks more busy. Other 12 kills the boss actually, but those 4 has same chance to roll on drops, and get them And those 4 people are the ones that dont want a dps meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhiaden Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 My main problem with damage meters is that it leads to "omg, must top the meters" usually followed by overaggro and death. A dead dps is worse than an underpar DPS any day of the week. I play healer, so generally get an overview of what is happening in the whole group better than someone up close to the mobs, and from that view it is easier to see who is doing what spells, and you can spot the "Must be no1" people very fast. Of course, you also get that with healing, but generally, if a healer isn't pulling their weight it is more obvious. The main use I have found for dmg meters is finding out who the idiot is spamming a spell that the mob is immune to, or who keeps breaking CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorqueoMilitaris Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) Pay attention to other people....that's a great counter argument. Yeah let me try and fight this difficult raid encounter while I pay attention to everyone in the raid to see if it looks like they're really doing any decent dps. correct. Even if they are not do anything, or others has to pay attention them, they are just against their group, and sabotage their success. Edited December 25, 2011 by TorqueoMilitaris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nastrodamous Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 100 pages of people wanting to be carried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourniquett Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) If you are going to rely on the cliche of : "Only bads dont want the meters", its ignoring the many examples that have been given on the downside of introducing them into the game. Its not all about about people getting carried, or going afk, or autoattacking. While you might not agree with their POV, at least acknowledge the examples they gave, and dont fool yourself into thinking that its all about someones ability(or lack of) that shapes their dislike of meters. I know plenty of good players that dont want them. And this whole idea that you need recount to tell you who stood in the fire too long, or that the tank died b/c lack of healing, or that someone broke cc, then you arent paying attention. Chances are a few people in the raid saw xyz screw up for the 10th time. There are other ways to figure out who isnt carrying their weight. people not using consumables, people showing up in bad gear, frequent afk's, showing up late constantly, or gear that isnt using the right stats. You can figure out who is a schlep, and who is decent. Honestly, I dont care if someone is doing 2.5% less dps (the horror!) than they should due to sub-optimal dps rotation.. It doesnt matter. If the boss dies, we all win. B/c last I checked everyone is assuming that enrage timers are a good reason to have meters. We dont even know if bosses will have them in SWTOR. And if enrage timers arent present, who cares about exact % DPS? Alot of people left/are leaving wow b/c the game gradually went to crap. This is one of the issues, that many think contributed to that. So people not wanting their game contaminated with wow'ish cancers isnt necessarily bad. Edited December 25, 2011 by Tourniquett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 A hypothetical question to the people that are pro DPS gauges and combat logs: I'm a person who loves all the information one can get. However... Let's say I'm a person who doesn't like these tools. I even get into a guild which is compromised of good players who don't like these tools. Now we're really good people in this guild, so we decide we want to do a world-first raid completion or two. We're just that good. Now there's two scenarios of what happens: 1) Add-ons don't exist: We're on a level playing field with everyone else. Simple. 2) Add-ons do exist: How do we compete with people who use combat logs, dps meters, whatever else you can think of? As far as I'm concerned, if there's all kinds of tools in-game I will use them. And I will abuse them. If I find the game good enough, I will abuse them to the point that will make people think I'm a cheat. I played spreadsheets online (also known as EVE online to some people), and I'm a sysadmin. I know my way around numbers and scripting. However, what about the people from scenario 2? How will they compete with me? They find it fun figuring everything out for themselves, rather than combat logs and damage meters doing it for them. That does take quite a bit more time and effort though. Therefore if they do want to compete, the tools become mandatory. Last time I checked, mandatory is not optional. Mandatory "optional" things are bad for a game, since all that happens around them is bickering and flamewars between the haves and have nots*. Mandatory 3rd party add-ons are even worse. *My reasoning on this: Since the tools are present, game is sooner or later balanced around the tools. Then what happens is, game stays about as hard as it would be without tools for the people that use them, but much much harder for the people that don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) I think it's great to play without add-ons because doing so avoids the garbage time required to download and update them (especially after major patches) as well as the resource requirements to run them. I just want to log in and play the game, not babysit a library of 3rd party idiot buttons. Having a few core add-on functions built into the game (combat log, UI customization, global default profile/settings creation & maybe a non-linkable damage meter) could alleviate this. As long as their inclusion doesn't hog bandwidth or impact the game's current combat mechanics and progression system... I'm game. Edited December 25, 2011 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorqueoMilitaris Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 but who talks about 3rd party addons here? a simple dps/aggro meter, implemented by bioware would be nice, everyone can use it, dont need to download anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) but who talks about 3rd party addons here? a simple dps/aggro meter, implemented by bioware would be nice, everyone can use it, dont need to download anything...Unfortunately a handful of WoW end game lifers who appear rather adamant about wanting TOR to be an extension of WoW (yuck...) I second your motion completely about integrating some rudimentary add-on functions into the game. Edited December 25, 2011 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 A hypothetical question to the people that are pro DPS gauges and combat logs: I'm a person who loves all the information one can get. However... Let's say I'm a person who doesn't like these tools. I even get into a guild which is compromised of good players who don't like these tools. Now we're really good people in this guild, so we decide we want to do a world-first raid completion or two. We're just that good. Now there's two scenarios of what happens: 1) Add-ons don't exist: We're on a level playing field with everyone else. Simple. 2) Add-ons do exist: How do we compete with people who use combat logs, dps meters, whatever else you can think of? As far as I'm concerned, if there's all kinds of tools in-game I will use them. And I will abuse them. If I find the game good enough, I will abuse them to the point that will make people think I'm a cheat. I played spreadsheets online (also known as EVE online to some people), and I'm a sysadmin. I know my way around numbers and scripting. However, what about the people from scenario 2? How will they compete with me? They find it fun figuring everything out for themselves, rather than combat logs and damage meters doing it for them. That does take quite a bit more time and effort though. Therefore if they do want to compete, the tools become mandatory. Last time I checked, mandatory is not optional. Mandatory "optional" things are bad for a game, since all that happens around them is bickering and flamewars between the haves and have nots*. Mandatory 3rd party add-ons are even worse. *My reasoning on this: Since the tools are present, game is sooner or later balanced around the tools. Then what happens is, game stays about as hard as it would be without tools for the people that use them, but much much harder for the people that don't. Your hypothetical reason is invalid because it is a situation that wouldn't happen. If you were a guild interested in world firsts, you'd be a guild that used tools to enhance your raiding. It would be like being a race team who refuses to use the tools required to tune a car's performance and expecting to compete in the Daytona 500. Or being a football team who doesn't analyse film. The type of player who goes for the gold is the type of player that uses every tool available to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halacs Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Basically the nay-Sayers don't want the "zomg look at my uberness" and post meters all the time or kick those that they deem not "leet enough" And the folks that want them don't want to carry "baddies" or they want it to gauge what's going wrong during an encounter and use it to gauge performance to min/max their own toon. That about right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunsun Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Meters are essential for any serious progression guilds. It's hypocritical to make difficult PvE group content if there's no feedback on who needs improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourniquett Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Your hypothetical reason is invalid because it is a situation that wouldn't happen. If you were a guild interested in world firsts, you'd be a guild that used tools to enhance your raiding. . No offense, but your example isn't the best. How many guilds are realistically going for world firsts? like .5% of the gaming population. Its well under 1% regardless. Less than 1% are going for server firsts, even. So you are basically using a nonexistant player base, as reasoning to introduce something that affects the rest of the gaming population? I have heard some decent arugements for meters, this aint one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 (edited) Meters are essential for any serious progression guilds. It's hypocritical to make difficult PvE group content if there's no feedback on who needs improvement.Many talk the "true" progression guild participation talk but have insufficient resumes to walk the walk. It's work... real full time job type work. WOWProgress.com estimated that only 14% of WoW characters (not players) raided full time. Not sure that's a large enough percentage for Bioware to substantiate going crazy with appeasing end game lifers on the metering front. At least to the extent that true progression guilds would like. Though a simple (and unlinkable in chat) damage meter/combat log would be a nice addition. Edited December 26, 2011 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinworm Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Yeah I really enjoy not knowing if I'm getting better or worse, or trying different tactics to see how effective they are, and instead being stagnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaegaknight Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 fantastic, I can finally enjoy flashpoints without some kid linking his meter every 3 mins to brag. what a blast, thanks for not including a combat log bioware! I'm thankful for the lack of addons and little tools to be quite honest. All of these things dumbed gamers down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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