It's great to PVE with no Damage Meters

[marshalleck]

You dont need a dmg meter to figure out "teh best rotation". Just look at what dmg your abilities do and use your brain regarding cast time resource use etc. It's not rocket sience...

 

Same with group dps, it's not hard to figure out who is slacking in a 4man group with two dps roles...

 

People just want a number where they can judge if you are good/bad/terrible instead of using common sense.

 

There's really only two things to say to people who claim "just watch the screen it's fine" as though it's that simple, the end.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism

[Ithillian]

Eh, I would love to have damage meters. I personally want to tweak my build and know for sure which one is better, not just which one feels like it's better.

 

Also, I enjoy knowing my dps doesn't suck, rather than just thinking it doesn't.

[Pendorax]

agreed

[Skeelol]

Eh, I would love to have damage meters. I personally want to tweak my build and know for sure which one is better, not just which one feels like it's better.

 

Also, I enjoy knowing my dps doesn't suck, rather than just thinking it doesn't.

 

Combat log was confirmed, which means a skada-like addon will follow offering all the information needed.

[Spydax]

Yay, now slackers can slack even more and be useless without being noted.

 

That's great! Can't wait for the Interface API -.-'

[squiek]

Sure, pugs wiping on normal raid encounters happen because of not so great people. We're not talking about that here, we're talking about quality raids.

 

Hardmodes which require everyone to play to their max.

 

There is no such content in WoW.

The diffuculty comes by those sneaky sleep attacks and general boredom of the game.

 

In WOTLK my guild rocked bosses so easy, that I lost my interest in this game.

The worst thing is those ppl thought they are good players. They never realized they play an easymode game with tools which make it even more easier :/

 

If pugs can clear hardmodes, there is something fishy.

Edited December 21, 2011 by squiek

[Darkvayder]

Still I never used dps tools - I give a **** on it. Your mastered way always works better than elitist stuff you can't master. As I said, WoW raid wipes are not because of damage, it's because of stupid people. The smart ones left when dps tools arrived. All what is left can hardly move out of flames or even do what a addon says - lolz.

 

But the best is, those ppl complain about wow easy mode while they use dps-meters and raid-support tools.

 

I lawled at how stupid this post is.

 

High end raiding takes the best from people and dps tools help for people to achieve this, in order for this game to thrive it needs to have high end raiding and PvP if it doesnt it will fail regardless of how many extra players having star wars in the front of the name brings in.

[Sniperfish]

Watch the game, you can work it out close enough. Nice to see something that isn't automating every area where alertness and intelligence are required.

[marshalleck]

Combat log was confirmed, which means a skada-like addon will follow offering all the information needed.

 

We're still going to need a UI API to get a log parser up and running. Combat log is half the solution. If they don't want to open up the UI API for modification, the next best alternative is a function that will dump combat logs to raw text format, then people can write a third party tool to parse the events out of game.

Edited December 21, 2011 by marshalleck

[Skeelol]

There is no such content in WoW.

The diffuculty comes by those sneaky sleep attacks and general boredom of the game.

 

Sure. That's why everyone's clearing hardmode raids the day they're out. Or... in reality.. not even 10% can actually clear them all, and that's after tons of nerfs months later and gear advancements on their part.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Skeelol

[squiek]

I lawled at how stupid this post is.

 

High end raiding takes the best from people and dps tools help for people to achieve this, in order for this game to thrive it needs to have high end raiding and PvP if it doesnt it will fail regardless of how many extra players having star wars in the front of the name brings in.

 

Yeah, the raid will fail because there is no dmg meter. Wait, how the hell could we beat Naxx classic few years ago? DMG meters are for noobs and nerds - you don't really get better on anything. As I said, those noobish dps tool usesers who can't figure out stuff on their own, are those who lie dead in raids because they fail to move. Maybe they looked for to long on numbers? mh..^^

 

Fact is, Bioware or Blizzard won't let chars fall down so you can't beat the content.

80% balance tweaks per patch because a retardin who does 1% less dmg but has group buffs which are not realized is not worth dps meters and the negative stuff it puts in the game.

Ppl will cry and tears are tears for me. No matter if it's "we want dps tools" or "my class sucks, 1% dmg less than others"...

 

period. i really don't want to explain those wow noobs why wow sucked for them, so they came to swtor. at least, figure out one damn thing by yourself ;D

Edited December 21, 2011 by squiek

[Skeelol]

Yeah, the raid will fail because there is no dmg meter. Wait, how the hell could we beat Naxx classic few years ago? DMG meters are for noobs and nerds - you don't really get better on anything. As I said, those noobish dps tool usesers who can't figure out stuff on their own, are those who lie dead in raids because they faild to move. Maybe they looked for to long on numbers? mh..^^

 

Clearly those people who failed to move and lie dead in raids are at the bottom of the dps meters.

 

Clearly they're not in favor of such a tool.

 

Clearly the ones that are against it are the ones who lie dead in raids and are at the bottom of the dps meters.

 

Logic does wonders.

[sosolidshoe]

I have to agree; I'm loving the game sans DPS meter - hell, I've turned off flytext as well. If you want to know "the best" rotation, ****, just use some nouse, some common sense, some intuition, and then -shocking suggestion I know- talk to other people about it.

 

Last night the Heroics group I was in wiped about three times on the same boss droid, and we had a great laugh. We still managed to figure out who'd ballsed up and adjust our strategy accordingly. I'd much rather play in an environment like that than one where dropping ten DPS below what the group leader thinks is ideal gets you kicked from the group, or you can't even get into a group because you don't meet some arbitrary number(if there's an API that lets modders make a DPS meter, there will be enough info available that they can also make some ******tery like Gearscore).

[Florial]

I found it refreshing to do Flashpoints without any form of Damage Meters, and I don't need any. I remember early raiding in WoW, and we did just fine without it. It's about being aware of other classes, know their playstyle, and recognize someone who is underperforming. Teach them how to play.

 

Damage meters is all about instant gratification e-peening and fascist Guildleader control freaks. Damage meters turn performance into a single number, not grasping half of what matters, and existing as an excuse for real nobs to kick without saying a word, either from a Guild or Party. !

 

I pretty much agree with you. I've played many MMOs throughout the years and have run many instances, raids, etc and it wasn't until WoW that I was introduced to the "joy" of damage meters and how prevalent they were in groups. For those players who have only played WoW and been accustomed to this environment, I feel a bit sorry for you. I think that some of the joy in just playing a game and having fun with your group members has been lost somewhere along the way. It is fairly easy (without damage meters) to see who is pulling the weight in your group or constantly afk. Damage meters, while useful in certain circumstances, have become a crutch for others.

 

The moment I see some player linking the damage meter results in party chat, I know that it is not going to be a fun run. When I see the results being spammed after each fight, I quickly know that the run will be fillled with flaming and harrassment. Thank goodness that most of my guilds haven't used meters in bad way---most folks are like me who quietly have them running in the background to tweak performance a bit. I had one guildie though in Rift who started spamming the results and making comments. They sort of ruined the run for the rest of us and I came to the conclusion that they were a control freak. I didn't run with them again.

[marshalleck]

I have to agree; I'm loving the game sans DPS meter - hell, I've turned off flytext as well. If you want to know "the best" rotation, ****, just use some nouse, some common sense, some intuition, and then -shocking suggestion I know- talk to other people about it.

 

Last night the Heroics group I was in wiped about three times on the same boss droid, and we had a great laugh. We still managed to figure out who'd ballsed up and adjust our strategy accordingly. I'd much rather play in an environment like that than one where dropping ten DPS below what the group leader thinks is ideal gets you kicked from the group, or you can't even get into a group because you don't meet some arbitrary number(if there's an API that lets modders make a DPS meter, there will be enough info available that they can also make some ******tery like Gearscore).

 

 

Cool story bro. If/when they do add a combat log and UI modification API, you can still play like an idiot and wipe three times on normal mode leveling content. Just turn off all the tools they give you and "intuit" your way through it.

Edited December 21, 2011 by marshalleck

[squiek]

Clearly those people who failed to move and lie dead in raids are at the bottom of the dps meters.

 

Clearly they're not in favor of such a tool.

 

Clearly the ones that are against it are the ones who lie dead in raids and are at the bottom of the dps meters.

 

Logic does wonders.

 

As I said. Dps tools don'T work. The ones on top1 are the ones who can play and who can focus on content, not numbers and forum cheese&whine.

 

I don't need a dps tool to tell me that acid darts for agents suck if I go for marksmen. It's pure logic.

Edited December 21, 2011 by squiek

[Toegrinder]

I want a damage meter so I know who is causing the raid to wipe, which healers are not healing up to par, and for my only personal "progression" so to say

 

Not to "link it and brag"

[TedLevine]

This is not about silly 4-mans and being a jerk towards others.

 

EQ was a zergfest that required 0 skills. Even the current LFR in WoW provides harder content than that joke of an MMO.

 

You my friend are not the sharpest knife in the drawer if you believe EQ was easy. I lived with the top raiding guild on our server at the time, Silent Redemption. I was at every raid, and I can tell you with all certainty, EQ mechanics were way harder than any game has put out since. Wow was a cakewalk compared to EQ, I walked through WoW with my eyes closed, and in EQ they did it with 100 to 200 people. Don't ever try to say it can't be done without parsers and logs, we did it, and having the challenge of defeating such a difficult encounter brought out the best in people, not like parsers that only bring out the worst. Best group of guys I ever played with, todays MMOers, wimps compared to those guys.

[Meatrose]

I'm not someone who cares (at all) about "e-peen" and this is not why I want to mention my background. The reason I'm mentioning it is the fact that a lot of people seem to somehow come to the conclusion that a person who does not fully embrace the World of Warcraft kind of meters has to be someone who can't perform well enough to earn a spot in groups or raids. Well, now that that's been said, let's get started.

 

I think of myself as a fairly experienced WoW-player, having one level 85 character of each class and having been an active raider from early vanilla to early wrath, and even though I've always been in the top segment of the dps meters and have never been kicked or asked to leave a group I am really glad that the WoW kind of dps meter is not in SWTOR, yet. I'll explain why (and note that I'm not saying that I don't want meters at all because that is not the case).

 

1) I play to have fun and no matter how well I am doing personally I don't think it's fun if I'm in a group where someone (there's almost always at least one) who is picking on some poor guy for being at the bottom of the dps meter. To see all the "l2p" or "learn your class" comments being thrown around to people who are often still performing reasonably well in my opinion (but just happen to be at the bottom of the all-knowing meter) takes most of the fun out of grouping. Games should be fun and contrary to increasingly popular belief; an MMORPG is a game in which you get to experience a different kind of life in a different world, not an alternate life set in a different world.

 

2) The kind of dps meter that keeps track of everyone's statistics for everyone to see tend to tempt dps players to forsake good teamplay for every little increase in dps that can be achieved. This includes but is not limited to:

 

* Not moving out of "fire" early enough to avoid taking unnecessary damage in order to "just finish this high damage casting sequence to increase my numbers on the meter", thus putting strain on the healers which leads to a decrease in overall group performance.

 

* Spamming AoE abilities in a multi-target encounter even though one or some of the targets should be nuked down as fast as possible due to various fight mechanics.

 

* Not giving the tank the chance to properly set him/herself up by securing the top slot on the mobs threat table. Big-arse Pyroblasts and Soul Fires already painting the sky red when the tank is still running up to the target comes to mind...

 

* Making CCing much harder due to, once again, spamming AoE abilities as soon as there are multiple targets, thus making the fights less strategic and more AoE-intensive, both in terms of damage and healing.

 

3) The meters in WoW are invaluable assets for many of us but also tools for rude players to take the fun out of the game for others. However, should those of us who do use them for good and to improve ourselves suffer simply because there are those who use them to create a negative impact on the community?

 

Suggestions:

 

Implement a meter for dps and overall damage as well as healing that is keeping track of the players own numbers and make it non-linkable. This allows everyone to monitor one's own performance and it's an invaluable asset when it comes to trying out different specs and ability priorities. It's also a great way to learn how to adapt to, let's say, encounters that include a lot of movement.

 

Also implement an additional meter for raid/groupleaders that keeps track of everyone's level of activity. Show the leader how much of the time (in combat only of course) the players are "not casting" any abilities. One of the most important ways to improve one's performance is the classic rule of thumb; "ABC" - Always Be Casting. It doesn't necessarily have to be exact values, there could be like three different ranks; green, yellow and red for instance. All values can be misleading however as a lot of factors need to be taken into consideration, such as movement (as that usually means that casters will be unable to cast most of their spells and melee won't be able to attack the target when they're running away from a cleave or AoE attack).

 

I'm guessing it wouldn't be hard to make it an exact value though and that would just require the raidleader to take above mentioned factors like movement into consideration when trying to evaluate the numbers. Now that I think about it though, this meter could or should also display damage taken or healing received (should not include overheal) to the leader as the fact that let's say a ranged dps is getting a lot more heals than the other ranged classes usually means that this player could learn a thing or two about the first rule of raiding; "don't stand in the fire" but also how to position him/herself properly due to fight mechanics.

 

I for one would welcome meters such as the ones I'm suggesting with open arms. The ability to monitor and evaluate your own performance and the ability for a leader to see if someone is obviously slacking or putting unnecessary strain on the healers is really useful. I think that the good ol' target dummy should also be added to the game in some way, shape or form. They won't be able to tell you what your performance will be in an actual encounter but they will let you compare different specs and ability priorities and when you want to try something different you don't want to have to get in a raid to see what difference it makes only to find out that "man this clearly backfired".

 

In the end it's really sad though that the creators of a game can't simply insert a standard raid/group-wide dps/damage/healing meter without infusing the community with a lot of hostility, rudeness and uncalled for elitism (as opposed to the useful/called for kind of elitism). In an ideal world all players would be mature, polite and sensible but we all know that such an environment will never exist inside a non-underground, successful game with millions of players. Some of those (going out of my way in order to not generalize here) that have enough free time to basically live their lives in-game will always be suffering from bad self-esteem or feel bad about themselves for other reasons and therefor act out i various ways in order to reach some state of self-validation and this often includes taking on a von-oben, elitist attitude and using available tools (could be dps meters or something completely different) to devalue other, often less experienced players.

 

I'm sorry for the long post.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Meatrose

[-Arcane-]

fantastic, I can finally enjoy flashpoints without some kid linking his meter every 3 mins to brag.

 

what a blast, thanks for not including a combat log bioware!

 

 

Yeah its awsome, you can be totally usless and be carried by your team and they WILL NEVER KNOW!

 

 

 

Give combat log asap Bioware.

[Skeelol]

As I said. Dps tools don'T work. The ones on top1 are the ones who can play and who can focus on content, not numbers and forum cheese&whine.

 

I don't need a dps tool to tell me that acid darts for agents suck if I go for marksmen. It's pure logic.

 

The ones at the top are the ones who care about squeezing everything out of their class/character/gear etc.

 

Not the ones who don't want dps meters to even exist. They live for the dps meters, for being nr1. It's just how it is.

 

I don't know in what kind of content you played, or what guild you were part of, but it couldn't have been even in the top 1000 worldwide.

 

You my friend are not the sharpest knife in the drawer if you believe EQ was easy. I lived with the top raiding guild on our server at the time, Silent Redemption. I was at every raid, and I can tell you with all certainty, EQ mechanics were way harder than any game has put out since. Wow was a cakewalk compared to EQ, I walked through WoW with my eyes closed, and in EQ they did it with 100 to 200 people. Don't ever try to say it can't be done without parsers and logs, we did it, and having the challenge of defeating such a difficult encounter brought out the best in people, not like parsers that only bring out the worst. Best group of guys I ever played with, todays MMOers, wimps compared to those guys.

 

You can keep writing replies, won't make it true.

 

Hardmode (non nerfed and close to release date) content in WoW is harder than anything any other MMO has had to offer.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Skeelol

[squiek]

Yeah its awsome, you can be totally usless and be carried by your team and they WILL NEVER KNOW!

 

 

 

Give combat log asap Bioware.

 

Is there a problem if the flashpoint was successfull? if they never know, it was fine.

[Phishass]

I am one of those players that would spend hours in front of a target dummies crunching numbers, spent way too much on respects because one points was out of place. I want to be able to squeeze everything out of my toon and expect others to strive for perfection as well. But to do that we need meters. For those of you that say to just play the game and enjoy it. I am, very much so but still would like the meters for end game perfection. Also those of you out there have to remember there dps and overall damage, they go hand in hand. Anyone can pop off a few good hits then die and say but I have good dps stats. Can u sustain it?

 

Meters? Yes

[Skeelol]

Is there a problem if the flashpoint was successfull? if they never know, it was fine.

 

This just proves why most people don't want them in the first place. I guess i'll just spam my normal attack too!

[Painstorm]

fantastic, I can finally enjoy flashpoints without some kid linking his meter every 3 mins to brag.

 

what a blast, thanks for not including a combat log bioware!

Let me correct that a bit, since you probably meant:

 

fantastic, I can finally enjoy flashpoints where I don't have to focus at all. I can watch TV while firing a random spell once every 10 sec, I can take small breaks during the fights if they get too boring and can update my facebook status while the rest of the group carry me.

 

what a blast, I don't need to know anything about my class, my spells or boss mechanics since no one can ever call me on it, thanks for not including a combat log bioware!

Edited December 21, 2011 by Painstorm