[Balance] How to fix Balance (without screwing over sages)

[Majspuffen]

Thinking about it, even something like - Fully consuming 10 stacks of Force Suppression procs a SS that hits as Force Damage and costs 50% less force. Once again, have to apply dots, have to set up the burst and provides meaningful, logic-based gameplay ultimately putting the player more in control of their playstyle, as to a near spectator as it is now.

 

That's actaully a great idea, though I imagine it might be difficult for Bioware to properly balance... but having something like a stacking buff on yourself whenever your dots consume Force Suppression charges to reduce the cost of Shadow Strike and increase its damage. If we spread around dots on multiple targets and hit them with a Force in Balance, then we'd get a lot of single-target burst by being able to almost spam Shadow Strike.

 

It's a great idea. It's those things that makes hotkey-based MMORPGs fun to play. For that reason, I'm actually starting to look back to WoW. I want more complexity in my gameplay, I want to be able to make mistakes and be punished for it. That way, it feels rewarding when I play properly. Currently, Balance Shadows leave next to no room for mistakes.

[kmjdudeMizzou]

I think they should incorporate shadow strike back into Balance spec somehow, just to make the spec less boring and more fun to play. I'm not saying by returning infiltration tactics to allow balance shadows to be able to spend points into it, but maybe create a new skill tree option that personalizes shadow strike, just like how Infiltration spec and Combat spec have now....

 

Since Shadow Strike is a shadow-only ability, i feel like all three specs should be able to make use of it. There are several other abilities that are like that in other classes....Why turn balance shadows into melee sages???

[TW-Cool]

i was sort of pissed that infiltration got both project buffs, and the SS buff. they should get one, and we get the other

 

I agree! It's not fair that they got both. It does make more sense for them to get SS and we would get Project however SS added to our melee mix....

All of our dots and FiB are our ranged attacks. While for melee attacks we just have Double Strike that is worth doing. Saber Strike is there for filler and Whirling Blow is worthless unless your a tank, right? Of course we get to shine under 30%.

 

I guess I would be happy to have a Project buff instead of nothing though. We could do ranged damaged during the first 70% of the boss fight and then move closer once they are under 30%...

[Majspuffen]

It's all I can do to think of how fun Balance could be, since the spec is boring as hell in the actual game.

 

I've written a bit on the Assassins forums and I came up with some more ideas of a unique Shadow Strike proc befitting to the playstyle and ideology of the Balance Spec.

 

Disclaimer: I might be repeating myself but it has been a while since I posted in this thread. In all my suggestions, I want to see Crush Spirit and Lambaste removed in favour of a new talent that allows for Shadow Strike to be used for Shadows. This proc would be very similar to Infiltration Tactics, in terms of its proc rate.

 

The frequency of the talent's proc rate:

It could function like Infiltration Tactics; having a 30% proc chance on any direct damage with a 6 second internal cooldown. Or it could function in a way that suits the Balance spec better; having a 30% proc chance from either DoTs or from the consumption of a Force Suppression charge.

 

The effect:

It needs to reduce the cost of Shadow Strike. Either by 50-75%... or maybe 100%, whatever keeps the flow going best for our spec.

 

The additional effect:

Here is where I'll start brainstorming a few ideas. Some of these I may have suggested in this thread earlier, but I'll repeat them nonetheless.

 

Idea 1: Shadow Strike deals an additional x% damage over the course of 4/6/8 seconds.

Reasoning: the % would have to be balanced around the damage output of other classes, to ensure that we stay within the 5% grace limit. I would prefer a shorter duration, for a larger amount of damage per tick. This damage could also consume Force Suppression charges to increase its damage further, which synergises very well with the rest of our tree. Much better than the 1.7 Shadow Spec did.

 

Idea 2: Shadow strike deals its damage in Force Damage. This damage can consume and gain the benefit of our Force Suppression charges.

Reasoning: This would be sort of gimmicky and highly useful in PvP. It suits the idea of Force and Melee synergy, which the Balance spec is heavily based upon, in my opinion.

 

Idea 3: Shadow strike deals an additional x% damage, stacking per active Force Suppression charge present on the target.

Reasoning: This too would synergy with the rest of our tree. Shadow Strike would be powerful enough to use on its own, but every now and then it might be best to wait with it for a second or two to ensure that we use the proc right after we've applied Force in Balance. This would make the gameplay a lot more involving... which, sadly, is apparently something Bioware deems as bad. But I digress, continuing on!

 

Idea 4: Shadow Strike applies a debuff to the target that increases the damage of our Force Technique by x%, stacking up to 3 times. Lasts x seconds.

Reasoning: This way, Battle Readiness would become a more powerful offensive ability. The increase of damage would have to be substantial, I believe. 100, 150 or 200% more damage. Whatever keeps us within the 5% grace limit.

 

Idea 5: (this idea is based on a different way of proccing than the others, as such I'll try to give it a more full-fledged description) Whenever our Force Suppression disappears from a target (be it through DoT consumption, killing the target or time simply running out) we gain 3 stacks of [buff] (maximum of 10). [buff] allows the use of Shadow Strike for free and causes 50% of its normal damage. Damage is increased by x% per active Damage over Time effect present on the target.

 

Reasoning: Have to make a new paragraph for this because it will require some explanation. The idea is that, as we fight we'll gather Shadow Strike procs that we will want to execute whenever we have all 3 dots on our target. It will make the gameplay a lot more involved, granted, but isn't that fun? This is also a make-shift solution to the problem with having no dispel-protection. Although, I dare say this idea would work better if Force in Balance was limited to 3 targets. A successful Force in Balance would net us a maximum of 9 charges, after a short period of time.

 

Ideally, this ability will do less damage than double strike when only one DoT is present. Equal damage to Double Strike when two dots are present and stronger than double strike when three DoTs are present. This turns the ability into a multi-purpose ability. We could use it when only two DoTs are present in order to preserve some Force, keep the rotation going without having to resort to saber strike. I realize this suggestion is rather "raw" and would have to be fine-tuned a lot... but it sure as hell would make the gameplay so much more fun.

 

 

I'll leave it at that, for now. It's not that difficult to be imaginative when it comes to this spec. The idea is awesome, mixing force and melee attacks in a wonderous synergy. I really want the gameplay to be more involved again. Right now, the spec is arguably one of the easiest in the game. So long as you can keep track of two dots and one CD, you can play this spec...

Edited May 18, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Elyx]

Honestly, they could just drop the cost of shadow strike. its damage is not directly correlational to it's cost, even in normal mode. the positional limitation itself should justify a HIGHER damage then a normal damage/force ratio would provide. if anything, it should be a defacto choice for any shadow spec who is behind the target.

 

I don't see any reason to not provide a specific buff to each spec if/when you use it. Infiltration could get the big damage spike/severely reduced cost, balance could get either a DoT increase, or a DoT consumption on use (this could give us some burst back were missing while not over boosting our damage), and Kinetic could get a mild damage debuff or something (like 2% reduced damage for X seconds).

 

While I don't think that SS should be a required balance ability, I can see why it is an iconic shadow ability, and I don't see any reason why it couldn't be an adaptive aspect of all 3 specs, as Puff said in his post.

 

I think the issue were going to run up against is the "# of skills used" that they quote. I don't necessarily agree with it, but someone in Bio thinks it's a big issue...that all classes have the same amount of button presses to use in their regular rotation. cause....you know...actual diversity would be bad. everyone gotsa be da same. so I like allot of the ideas, but not sure who they would fly against Bio's new authoritative stance on class complexity.

[sainik]

Necroing this thread, just because of the pathetic state balance shadows are in.

 

Here is what I could do (not sure if I am repeating suggestions in this thread already). My vision for balance shadow has been primarily a dot based spec, that feeds its dot damage from its melee and force abilities. So here is the idea: melee abilities proc 'buffA' and force abilities proc 'buffB' that aid burst and survivability respectively.

 

Universal Changes: SS proc standard for all shadows (without the 30 % damage boost).

 

1. (Burst Solution) Shadow Strike, Spinning strike (100 % chance) and all other direct melee abilities (20 % chance) apply 'BuffA' to you, increasing the critical chance of the next 6 dots by 30 %. 10 second rate limit.

 

Might have to change numbers to buff/nerf it

 

2. (Survivability Solution) Project (60% chance) and all other direct force abilities (20 % chance) apply 'buffB' to you, increasing the healing done by the next 6 focused insight heals by 400 %. Rate limit 20 seconds. (I hate to get another defensive ability/cooldown when we have heals built into our tree. I would much rather see them buffed.)

- Also bring back instant force lift

 

3 (Force regen) Consuming 'buffA' and 'buffB' charges restore 3 force. In addition using phase walk applies both buffA and buffB outside the rate limit.

 

There is good synergy. Also there is no requirement to use SS/project for people who do not want to use them (buffsA and buffsB can easily be obtained by other means) so no complexity change, but there is also amazing burst and survivablity potential.

 

Anyways. hoping for quicker fixes from BW.

[Ashuranrx]

My suggestions:

 

1. Burst - Shock/Project and Force in Balance/Death Field deal extra damage base on how many DoTs are on the target, maybe up to two.

 

2. Defense - Make Blackout universally usable outside of stealth and give 25% damage reduction when used. Infiltration can still refresh it.

 

3. Force regen - Hitting targets with Dots with melee attacks regens Force.

[thejollygreenone]

My suggestions:

 

1. Burst - Shock/Project and Force in Balance/Death Field deal extra damage base on how many DoTs are on the target, maybe up to two.

 

2. Defense - Make Blackout universally usable outside of stealth and give 25% damage reduction when used. Infiltration can still refresh it.

 

3. Force regen - Hitting targets with Dots with melee attacks regens Force.

 

i really appreciate that you made suggestions that didn't involve shadow strike or spinning strike. i say leave them to the martial skill tree, while the force user hybrid focuses on force, kinetic, and a splash of melee. i suppose not everyone would agree with that.

 

the blackout buff may be weird if smuggler didn't get a similar buff since they basically have a mirror ability. that's probably not as true as it seems to me, but at the same time it would be weird to give a flat buff to one stealth class' stealth level increase buff, but not to give it to the other. may be better if it was talented.

 

the force regen might be overkill if used in conjuction with the rippling force/lightning burns talent. they could remove the force boost to rippling force and add you're suggestion instead, and a slightly more potent version than is given with rippling force since that seems to be the complaint. my point is that having both may make force regen too easy.

[senatorkn]

It can be really good for PVP/PVE to make PW an AOE DOT (just like Plasma Probe from Engineer Snipers) with many kinds of secondary effects. It can slow targets/heal yourself depending on how many targets in the area/put an armor or heal debuff or you can suggest your ideas.

[TW-Cool]

My suggestions:

 

1. Burst - Shock/Project and Force in Balance/Death Field deal extra damage base on how many DoTs are on the target, maybe up to two.

 

2. Defense - Make Blackout universally usable outside of stealth and give 25% damage reduction when used. Infiltration can still refresh it.

 

3. Force regen - Hitting targets with Dots with melee attacks regens Force.

 

Sounds like good suggestions to me. Simple, yet effective. However, when it comes to defense we do have our deflect ability and that other one for 3 seconds of "invulnerability" and our battle readiness to increase health in an emergency. So, I'd prefer #1 and #3 more if we had to make a choice.

[Majspuffen]

I am of a mind that Balance Shadows should mix melee and force attacks, one boosting the other... kind of like pre 2.0 ... but at this point I just want to see the skill ceiling raised. It's hard to stay optimistic when we've been ignored for so long.

[DarthSpekulatius]

I am of a mind that Balance Shadows should mix melee and force attacks, one boosting the other... kind of like pre 2.0 ... but at this point I just want to see the skill ceiling raised. It's hard to stay optimistic when we've been ignored for so long.

 

going back to pre 2.0 Balance, how it could have been made simpler without making it ordinary:

 

what about giving an Visual Indication if an Ability is affected by a Buff?

Shadow-strike: it could have an red Background without Proc and the current symbol while a Proc is up,

something similar for Mind crush while Force Strike and Project while Unearthed Knowledge is active.

that would improve the ease of use as well as allowing for using things without proc if we choose to do so.

 

and if they can do it depending on a Buff they might be able to do it depending an a Debuff the Enemy we currently have targeted has (not the perfect solution for Dot tracking but I don't think it's a Bad one either).

 

after all Kinetic got SS probably because there is an easy to spot indicator, since in general if you are tanking it's either available or unavailable depending upon the Proc.

 

if were possible to give Icons another status aside from usable, unusable and onCD, ...

if that were possible we might see Shadow Strike again in the Balance Rotation,... some Years down the Road.

 

and even regardless of getting SS&Project back it would be nice for DoT tracking, and not just for Shadows.

[UrbanSaint]

I agree with this thread in the fact that the main reason I think balance shadows are gimped is due to the fact that Shadow Strike is of little to no value in our rotation since it costs half your force by default. In my head a "Balance" shadow would use Force and Melee attacks regularly with one augmenting the other, so a proc (let's call it "Mind and Body" for example) where all your DoT's have an 15/25% chance to reduce the cost of shadow strike and/or increase its damage would make this spec more viable and overall just more fun to play. Heck I would even say make an ability in this tree (lets call it "Mental Breakdown" for example) that procs a Spinning Strike that can be used on targets at any health (similar to what Vigilance Guardians, Combat Sentinels, and Dirty Fighting Gunslingers get). I think defensive abilities are fine as is but other defensive procs could be useful.

 

FiB>Force Breach>Double Strike until you get instant Mind Crush>Server Force gets old and dry to the point where I am seriously thinking about coming up with some random fancy hybrid spec just so I can actually use other abilities XD. And dont get me started on how useless that Whirling Blow proc is >.>

 

Just my 2cents

[sainik]

Ok here is another idea

 

(copying over from the idea of breaching shadows in infil tree).

 

When force technique does damage, builds breaching shadows. At 3 stacks,

 

- the next ability with activation time activates instantly and costs no force (so mind crush, force lift and phasewalk), and consumes all stacks (So reduce the cooldown on mind crush to 7.5 secs for balance)

- next melee ability costs no force and does 10 % more damage per periodic effect on the target, and consumes all stacks.

 

In any case, a bump.

[TW-Cool]

When force technique does damage, builds breaching shadows. At 3 stacks,

 

- the next ability with activation time activates instantly and costs no force (so mind crush, force lift and phasewalk), and consumes all stacks (So reduce the cooldown on mind crush to 7.5 secs for balance)

 

I dont care about Force Life or Phasewalk at all on my Balance Shadow. Just saying. I'd alter your suggestion and simply say our next DoT ability of any choice cost 0 force and has no activation (so Mind Crush, Sever Force, and Force Breach). This idea could even replace BW's changes with cleansing. Giving one of our DoTs a free cast undoes the fact that someone just cleansed it.

[sainik]

I'd alter your suggestion and simply say our next DoT ability of any choice cost 0 force and has no activation (so Mind Crush, Sever Force, and Force Breach).

 

Of course. I myself hate my ideas minutes after I post them. Just putting ideas out there. The developers are professional, and they will easily figure out how much of these are trash

 

OK here is another: Shadow strike consumes all dots on the target, dealing x% of the remaining damage on the consumed dots (instantly).

 

x could be like 30 (or 50 ?)

Not sure how it impacts pve, but found the idea to be an interesting mechanic for pvp.

[Osoygatitalove]

A lot of people were alarmed by the low DPS Balance Shadows parsed. Bioware patted us on the head and said that in a raid environment, we'd deal the same amount of damage as everyone else, since our damage will supposedly sky-rocket during the execute phase.

 

This is bad design, in my opinion. As such, I have a simple suggestion that will not only give balance higher sustained damage and less "sky-rocket" damage during the execute phase, but also restore some of the lost fun to the spec.

 

Simple suggestion; Replace "Crush Spirit" with a new talent that allows for the use of Shadow Strike.

 

And if I am to expand upon this idea a bit, I'd suggest something like this:

[Talent name]

Your damage over time abilties have a 15/30% chance to grant [buff name], reducing the force cost of your next Shadow Strike by 75%. In addition, your Shadow Strike will deal x% more damage per active damage over time debuff present on your target.

 

This way, Balance shadows also gets to use Shadow Strike, and they get a Shadow Strike with its own distinction. What do you think?

 

chance on dots to refresh force cloak for 1.5 seconds.

 

nuffsaid.

[Atiris]

Of course. I myself hate my ideas minutes after I post them. Just putting ideas out there. The developers are professional, and they will easily figure out how much of these are trash

 

OK here is another: Shadow strike consumes all dots on the target, dealing x% of the remaining damage on the consumed dots (instantly).

 

x could be like 30 (or 50 ?)

Not sure how it impacts pve, but found the idea to be an interesting mechanic for pvp.

 

Interesting concept. It's like a nuke; you build up the dots and then absorb them into your shadow strike for a huge burst. However, the downside to this is that it doesn't appeal to the "dot" concept and will change the mechanics of the spec entirely. The whole point of Balance is to have sustained damage over time. For PvP, it's about spreading your dots around and then target one person once the group is dotted. This is reinforced by the fact that wrath (forgot the sage's comparison to the spell) procs from affliction.

 

If they go with your suggestion, you are getting rid of the dot mechanic. You will be encouraging people to apply the dots and then get rid of them for a larger shadow strike. Sure, the big number is nice, but you risk taking away a lot of the spec's damage by getting rid of its DoTs. Secondly, shadow strike will be the only burst since you won't have the benefit infiltration has with breach and project. So you not only get rid of DoTs by changing them into stacks instead, but you also make Balance a poor copy of the infiltration.

 

I think the idea is nice, but instead of getting rid of the dots, why not have the damage of shadow strike scale with the number of dots afflicting the target?

[RyderQuanTy]

Just make lambast refresh all dots

[sainik]

If they go with your suggestion, you are getting rid of the dot mechanic.

 

This is true, that idea ends up changing too much.

 

The idea of scaling damage with number of dots is nice. Another idea is for shadow strike to apply a very short term crit buff on dots (like zen for watchman sentinels), since balance shadows do not have any crit boosts whatsoever in the tree.

[Atiris]

This is true, that idea ends up changing too much.

 

The idea of scaling damage with number of dots is nice. Another idea is for shadow strike to apply a very short term crit buff on dots (like zen for watchman sentinels), since balance shadows do not have any crit boosts whatsoever in the tree.

 

That can work too. Like 5 seconds of crits from every dot applied to the target? Another idea is that Shadow Strike applies another dot to increase the amount of dots stack on them. So you have breach, Jedi version of crushing darkness and creeping terror and then the shadow strike dot. But I think the Zen reference idea and the Shadow Strike's damage scaling with the # of dots may add the biggest boost in burst damage.

[sainik]

But I think the Zen reference idea and the Shadow Strike's damage scaling with the # of dots may add the biggest boost in burst damage.

 

I agree. I like the crit boost/zen reference as it would do slightly more than just burst, it will give a small amount of pro-active survivability via focussed insight.

 

Just make lambast refresh all dots

 

While the ability to refresh dots is nice, I usually do not have an issue maintaining dots in a pvp setting (where there is higher room for error in dot clipping), especially since the dots are low cooldown and force efficient. If there had to be something with whirling blow in the balance tree, I would allow whirling blow to spread force breach from one target to all (maybe a slight reduction on force cost ?) . Depending on the number of targets it could be more force efficient, and definitely gcd efficient and allows balance to build up aoe pressure very quickly.

 

But personally I would like to move whirling blow to infiltration, as that is the tree with absolutely no aoe pressure. Balance already has a powerful aoe nuke in FiB, and doesn't need more imo. It depends on what the developers vision is for each of the trees, I guess.

[Atiris]

I agree. I like the crit boost/zen reference as it would do slightly more than just burst, it will give a small amount of pro-active survivability via focussed insight.

 

 

 

While the ability to refresh dots is nice, I usually do not have an issue maintaining dots in a pvp setting (where there is higher room for error in dot clipping), especially since the dots are low cooldown and force efficient. If there had to be something with whirling blow in the balance tree, I would allow whirling blow to spread force breach from one target to all (maybe a slight reduction on force cost ?) . Depending on the number of targets it could be more force efficient, and definitely gcd efficient and allows balance to build up aoe pressure very quickly.

 

But personally I would like to move whirling blow to infiltration, as that is the tree with absolutely no aoe pressure. Balance already has a powerful aoe nuke in FiB, and doesn't need more imo. It depends on what the developers vision is for each of the trees, I guess.

 

I think you have a good idea with attacking breach and discharge to whirling blow. I've been promoting an idea for Sorcerers that would allow them to spread a dot to multiple targets, whether it is just one dot or several dots. I think your suggestion with whirling blow will have that same affect.

 

I am a strong advocate in believing that DoT orientated specs should be focused around the idea of applying dots to multiple targets in order to apply pressure to healers. After all, all their damage is sustained and therefore, doesn't match another class with burst damage. The best way to counter or balance this is give them better AoE ability. This will add extra pressure to the healer by giving them more to heal.

[Majspuffen]

Ok here is another idea

 

(copying over from the idea of breaching shadows in infil tree).

 

When force technique does damage, builds breaching shadows. At 3 stacks,

 

- the next ability with activation time activates instantly and costs no force (so mind crush, force lift and phasewalk), and consumes all stacks (So reduce the cooldown on mind crush to 7.5 secs for balance)

- next melee ability costs no force and does 10 % more damage per periodic effect on the target, and consumes all stacks.

 

In any case, a bump.

 

I like this idea. It is similar to how Shadow Orbs function for Shadow Priests in World of Warcraft. You have two abiliities that consume shadow orbs, one being a CC and one being for damage. It's a nice design and I would gladly see something like it for Balance Shadows...

 

... but unfortunately Bioware does not care about depth!

[Quazi-moto]

DPS Fix:

Balance:

Lambaste: applies mind crush to targets hit by your Whirling Blow

Force Supression: Force in Balance refreshes mind crush on affected targets

I had posted this in the 2.5 changes thread.

 

As you would need less use out of mind crush, I would also like to see Force strike change to give sever force a chance to tick twice.

 

I would like to see sever force moved down and replace a lower tier skill. Psychic Absorption could be replaced.

In it's place as the capstone, a new skill, Force Resonance. This skill takes current dot's on target and creates a resonating force dot that mirrors the sum of the individual dot. Lasts for 6s. 45s cd. This gives some bursty feel that doesn't make balance bursty.

 

Benefits:

a) mind crush is now applied via whirling blow

b) sever force has more RNG to do extra damage

c) FIB is critical to maintain mind crush (5 limits the extent of maintaining mind crush on large groups)

d) New mechanic of some quick bonus damage for the work done to put those dots up in the first place.