Subscribers feeling hard-done? Here's an idea on how to regain our favor...

[Darka]

I think its safe to say the way TOR performed it caused a few rethinks in the way things would go, how much different I am not sure, whether TOR was a massive success or not i still think we would have seen a Cartel Market, but I do agree that we would have seen many things that were CM make an appearance in game via loot.

Id be interested to see the images of the wall of armour sets and see what is in game now via CM of them

[Machine-Elf]

I'm curious as just what pre-1990 MMORPGs existed and what that has to do with his point of Achievements = Titles..

 

Sorry, I was being facetious

 

I can say that it's common with Eastern MMOs such as Aion, Mabinogi and the like. Though with them the titles actually boost specific stats.

 

World of Warcraft made the achievement system noticeable in Western MMOs. And yes, it was mostly just vanity titles. They also had mount rewards and some special vanity pets and items

They were mostly vanity items but, as you said, they weren't restricted to just titles — they included pets, stats changes, and mounts. Basically what's available in the cartel market now.

Titles are a hallmark of days past, back when having a virtual avatar in the first place was a novelty in and of itself. Nowadays, they signify close to nothing. I'm convinced a good portion of SWTOR's player-base, in which I include myself, does not even use nameplates (they tend to clutter an already extremely visually busy game).

Edited March 31, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Uldihaa]

Oh, I agree! I'd love to see mounts and pets in the Achievement rewards.

 

And the title things are annoying. I use them, but only ones that I feel fit my character or are unusual. I'd really like it if they ripped a page from Eastern MMOs and apply stat boosts to Titles, ideally to those titles only available through Achievements; and maybe the Cartel Market Pac titles.

[Machine-Elf]

Oh, I agree! I'd love to see mounts and pets in the Achievement rewards.

 

And the title things are annoying. I use them, but only ones that I feel fit my character or are unusual. I'd really like it if they ripped a page from Eastern MMOs and apply stat boosts to Titles, ideally to those titles only available through Achievements; and maybe the Cartel Market Pac titles.

Oh good! We're in agreement, then...

[Machine-Elf]

Any other takers?

[danielearley]

I don't think the fact that the items were developed by a separate team negates the possibility of them having been originally intended as rewards for the achievement system.

 

You really think they went through the trouble of coming up with hundreds of different achievement types with the sole intention of rewarding players with titles?

 

Maybe you're right...who knows, right?

 

The fact that we have never got any rewards other than titles would point to the fact your wrong and they were never intended for the achievements.

 

I'm not sure where you got this idea other than wishful thinking.

 

However you are right it would be cool to get things for these achievements.

[Machine-Elf]

The fact that we have never got any rewards other than titles would point to the fact your wrong and they were never intended for the achievements.

 

I'm not sure where you got this idea other than wishful thinking.

I've had it ever since the first batch of Cartel Market items rolled out, before any of us even knew of the achievement system's existence. When I started seeing items that any half-baked development team would deem as misplaced and rupturing with the game world's internal set of rules (Imperial Throne Rooms being made available to the Republic, Red Glowing Eyes for fully Light Side characters, and so on...) I knew instantly that these things had been repurposed from some kind of prior reward mechanism. I didn't expect it to be a full on achievement system though, since we already had one, albeit rudimentary.

 

Then there's the speed with which all these items were created. It's obvious that they'd been in the works for quite some time (but then again, everything in MMOs has been around forever before it's actually pushed out to live servers), and consequently intended for something else other than the Cartel Market.

 

Finally, my suspicions were confirmed when the achievement system showed up on the PTS, and I noticed four empty rewards slots for each and every single achievement, reward slots which were obviously intended for something else other than titles and cartel coins (since they're four) and which have now conspicuously disappeared.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Really? Can you cite a few (pre-1990) examples, please?

 

Why pre-1990?

 

LoTRO launched with an achievement system that in some cases gave a small stat bonus but in others gave just a title or let you buy a cosmetic outfit or mount. However the achievements that gave access to cosmetics were actually reputation with a faction. That changed when it went F2P when it also started awarding small amounts of the equivalent of CC

Edited April 4, 2013 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[Machine-Elf]

Why pre-1990?

 

Again, I was being cheeky.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Machine-Elf]

But what you should really read is my previous post, the one above yours.

[danielearley]

I've had it ever since the first batch of Cartel Market items rolled out, before any of us even knew of the achievement system's existence. When I started seeing items that any half-baked development team would deem as misplaced and rupturing with the game world's internal set of rules (Imperial Throne Rooms being made available to the Republic, Red Glowing Eyes for fully Light Side characters, and so on...) I knew instantly that these things had been repurposed from some kind of prior reward mechanism. I didn't expect it to be a full on achievement system though, since we already had one, albeit rudimentary.

 

Then there's the speed with which all these items were created. It's obvious that they'd been in the works for quite some time (but then again, everything in MMOs has been around forever before it's actually pushed out to live servers), and consequently intended for something else other than the Cartel Market.

 

Finally, my suspicions were confirmed when the achievement system showed up on the PTS, and I noticed four empty rewards slots for each and every single achievement, reward slots which were obviously intended for something else other than titles and cartel coins (since they're four) and which have now conspicuously disappeared.

 

I now can see your thinking, so why didn't you include this information in your original post?

[AlaricSevGirl]

I'm a sub and I have no issues with the game. I still continue to every day, they hove no need to regain favor from me.

 

Agreed and I'm wiling to pay for retro armor, for example the batlemaster stalker armor that was in the game originally. I love that armor (white with feathers) and wish I knew someone who could make it. I don't see it on the GTN. I'd love to have it in game but not as an achievement. I'd like to put it on my up and coming sage.

 

I love the game. Tried to play GW2 again and just saw what was lacking from GW2. They are both excellent games but SWTOR draws me in.

[Machine-Elf]

I now can see your thinking, so why didn't you include this information in your original post?

Didn't expect it would be that hard for people to buy, I guess. Remember, in my mind, the whole thing was self-evident.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Machine-Elf]

Edited OP for clarity

[Machine-Elf]

Feedback required.

[Machine-Elf]

Come on guys...someone get the ball rolling again.

[Vandicus]

Rewards from the achievement system are legacy wide, ergo if command thrones had been rewards for sith inquisitor/warrior storylines, they still would have been available to the other side. Your theory still doesn't mesh. I really think you're reaching with this.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Nothing Bioware can do will regain favor with subscribers because people are fickle and will hate anything you try to do for them.

 

It's just a pointless effort. If they put things on the achievement system, someone will complain they don't have time to farm achievies to get them and request that they be in Cartel packs with a higher drop rate. They do that, someone complains that they are now over burdened with the item and need to have the drop rate nerfed while another complains that now their special item is no longer special and request it's removal from the pack altogether.

 

You know what would actually work? If people just played the game and enjoyed what they liked and stop sweating the small stuff.

[Machine-Elf]

Rewards from the achievement system are legacy wide, ergo if command thrones had been rewards for sith inquisitor/warrior storylines, they still would have been available to the other side. Your theory still doesn't mesh. I really think you're reaching with this.

Sure they would have still been made available to the other side but — while not entirely in keeping with the game's narrative and general aesthetic presentation — it actually would have made some semblance of sense within the context of the Legacy System (your Republic character "inherited" the Sith Throne Room by unlocking the achievement with an Imperial alt, etc...).

 

In any case, my theory being right or not is immaterial. What should be of most relevance is whether or not subscribers are receptive to the idea of having cartel market items which have gone past their sell-by date be made available to them through the achievement system. I can see no reason why they wouldn't.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Machine-Elf]

Nothing Bioware can do will regain favor with subscribers because people are fickle and will hate anything you try to do for them.

 

It's just a pointless effort. If they put things on the achievement system, someone will complain they don't have time to farm achievies to get them and request that they be in Cartel packs with a higher drop rate. They do that, someone complains that they are now over burdened with the item and need to have the drop rate nerfed while another complains that now their special item is no longer special and request it's removal from the pack altogether..

Well I guess the central message here is that BioWare's folks might as well pack their bags and call it quits, then.

[Vandicus]

Sure they would have still been made available to the other side but -- while not entirely cohesive in terms of the game's narrative and general aesthetic -- it actually would have made some semblance of sense within the context of the Legacy System (your Republic character "inherited" the Sith Throne Room by unlocking the achievement, etc...)

 

In any case, my theory being right or not is immaterial. What is should be of most relevance is whether or not subscribers are receptive to the idea of having the old cartel markets which have expired their sell-by date be made available to them through the achievement system. I can see no reason why they wouldn't.

 

Those who have purchased them with cartel coins or credits would undoubtedly be upset. The prices they paid were based on the understanding that the items were relatively rare and therefore valuable. I do think that releasing cartel items in-game through commonly available means will greatly detract from future cartel market sales(why buy it now for an exorbitant price when it can be had easily later?). I would like them to develop more rewards for achievements(though this could eventually result in serious item bloat for new characters), but I don't think moving old CM items to the achievement system is a viable way of doing so.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Well I guess the central message here is that BioWare's folks might as well pack their bags and call it quits, then.

 

Actually, the central message is "Players need to cool their Tauns Tauns and just enjoy the game, rather than demand the game be tailored their way".

 

Though I wouldn't fault Bioware if they just shut down the game tomorrow. After the Retake debacle, the Dragon Age hate and now SWTOR being bashed at every turn, it's a wonder why they still create wonderful game environments, fantastic stories and engaging characters for a public that can't even appreciate the hard work Bioware does and even have the audacity to claim they are "lazy developers pushing out the bare minimum for maximum profits".

 

Honestly, does anyone realize that if it wasn't for Bioware, you'd be in the Real World right now?

 

And we all know the Real World suuuuuucks.

[Machine-Elf]

Actually, the central message is "Players need to cool their Tauns Tauns and just enjoy the game, rather than demand the game be tailored their way".

 

Though I wouldn't fault Bioware if they just shut down the game tomorrow. After the Retake debacle, the Dragon Age hate and now SWTOR being bashed at every turn, it's a wonder why they still create wonderful game environments, fantastic stories and engaging characters for a public that can't even appreciate the hard work Bioware does and even have the audacity to claim they are "lazy developers pushing out the bare minimum for maximum profits".

 

Honestly, does anyone realize that if it wasn't for Bioware, you'd be in the Real World right now?

 

And we all know the Real World suuuuuucks.

I'll always cherish BioWare for having brought to us two videogame masterpieces that will forever stand the test of time, the original KOTOR and Dragon Age: Origins.

 

That isn't to say I'll blindly swear by all of their future pursuits. Dragon Age 2 made a mockery of the original, and the Mass Effect franchise—while at times showing glimpses of their original brilliance as developers—ultimately served as a testament to the dip in quality their games took following EA's corporate take-over.

 

A fully voiced, story-driven MMO based on the Star Wars IP has the potential to become BioWare's greatest and most immersive gaming experience yet. It could be a world-wide entertainment phenomenon, the likes of which no one has ever seen.

 

Yes, it can still happen.

 

But in order for that to take place the people in charge have to grow a pair and hold strong to their original, grandiose vision for the game, and I'm afraid we've been seeing that slip away as a feasible prospect more and more, the clearer the game's current direction becomes.

 

Finally, I don't want the game to be tailored my way. I want it to be tailored everyone's way. If you read any of my other posts they're all focused on making the SWTOR product a more attractive experience for everyone, new players in particular, instead of worrying about how to improve my own insular experience with it.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Darth_Moonshadow]

I'll always cherish BioWare for having brought to us two videogame masterpieces that will forever stand the test of time, the original KOTOR and Dragon Age: Origins.

 

That isn't to say I'll blindly swear by all of their future pursuits. Dragon Age 2 made a mockery of the original, and the Mass Effect franchise—while at times showing glimpses of their original brilliance as developers—ultimately served as a testament to the dip in quality their games took following EA's corporate take-over.

 

A fully voiced, story-driven MMO based on the Star Wars IP has the potential to become BioWare's greatest and more immersive gaming experience yet. It could be a world-wide entertainment phenomenon, the likes of which no one has ever seen.

 

Yes, it can still happen.

 

But in order for that to take place the people in charge have to grow a pair and hold strong to their original, grandiose vision for the game, and I'm afraid we've been seeing that slip away as a feasible prospect more and more, the clearer the game's current direction becomes.

 

Finally, I don't want the game to be tailored my way. I want it to be tailored everyone's way. If you read any of my other posts they're all focused at making the SWTOR product a more attractive experience for everyone, new players in particular, instead of worrying about how to improve to my own insular experience with it.

 

Did it ever occur to you that the current direction IS the vision they wanted? Or do you have your own vision of the game and placed that vision in Bioware's hands and say "I know this is what you wanted, you're just straying right now."

 

You don't want the game tailored to everyone, you want it your way and you assume everyone else will go along with it because you met a few people who said "Oh hey that's a good idea". Just because the forumites think you have something doesn't mean the players will. Someone will ALWAYS complain and then they'll be right here on the forums, saying that this thread is the wrong way to go about it and their idea is the better way.

 

You not have all the facts, studies or statistics to make a smart decision in the design of this game. Not a single one of us does. You know who does? Bioware. Because they are actually IN the business and they have people who do that. Bioware knows what they are doing. You don't. No offense intended.

 

Just let Bioware do what they do. If you don't like it, you don't have to stay. If you like it, stay and have fun.

 

They got this. Let them work.

[Machine-Elf]

Those who have purchased them with cartel coins or credits would undoubtedly be upset. The prices they paid were based on the understanding that the items were relatively rare and therefore valuable. I do think that releasing cartel items in-game through commonly available means will greatly detract from future cartel market sales(why buy it now for an exorbitant price when it can be had easily later?). I would like them to develop more rewards for achievements(though this could eventually result in serious item bloat for new characters), but I don't think moving old CM items to the achievement system is a viable way of doing so.

I acknowledged this issue in my original post.

 

Yes, a small portion of us who paid for the Cartel Market items are bound to express some measure of discontentment with the prospect of their losing value as a result of being included as rewards for the achievement system, but the truth is that old CM items are already practically worthless as it stands (you can find most of them in the GTM for chump change). Plus, I'm only proposing for this to be implemented further down the line, by which time the items will have been made completely defunct and devoid of almost any value.

 

And as for it detracting from future Cartel Market sales: First, I'm not entirely sure that it would. I have a pretty good feeling most of the folks who now spend copious amounts of money on the CM do so entirely on impulse, driven by a desire for instant gratification. As such, they are the kind of people whose consumption habits are not likely to be hindered by the potential later inclusion of Cartel Market items into the achievement system.

 

Secondly, as I stated before, BioWare would have to make sure to communicate clearly to player that their inclusion into the achievement system is, if not a one-time deal, then a rare enough occurrence so as to not give way to a free-loader mentality. Notice how players are not detracted from buying World of Warcraft expansions on release, even though they're bound to be made available for free sometime in the future. Same principle should apply here.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Machine-Elf