Why 4 man Flashpoints? - Trinity system fail

[MidichIorian]

In any case we should be able to ignore the class rule when queueing in a premade. So you have 4 sents but are pretty confident in being able to run through a flashpoint anyway, let them try it and get the daily done if they make it.

[Lasica]

The majority of advanced classes in SWTOR can either tank or heal though. There are a grand total of 2 that are pure dps.

 

Now if we could just get dual-spec option...

[Tsillah]

I don't think there aren't enough healers or tanks. Especially if you're in a guild.

 

The problem lies elsewhere. PUGS are horrible to tank or heal. So I have 2 tank and 2 healers at level 50 and I rarely PUG. I avoid it when I can because I don't trust PUGS. Too much goes wrong there, so I don't want to put myself through that.

 

You tell me, but with 2.0 repair costs go up again. If I die twice in a fp I lose money instead of making money. If I die once it's about break even cause when you're geared it takes 10k to do 1 repair.

 

So if I go into the GF and get a PUG group, I run into tanks who dont taunt, DPS who break cc's or healers that DPS while the tank dies etc.. I play all roles so I've seen all of that. It's just not worth it.

 

There are enough healers and tanks...they just don't wanna play with clueless undergeared people and that's a risk you run when PUGGING and it costs time and money. Don't even get me started on mercs that use tanking gear with absorb and defense stats....seriously.

[Illyean]

BW/ES decided at an early design stage that rather than challenge the stale and boring norm they would just implement an even smaller scale cut back version of it, 4 man groups, 8/16 man ops, not really the epic Star Wars battles we were looking for! Dont get me wrong I enjoy them and for the most part they are pretty good examples of their type, but its nothing new and in fact its not even as good as the others who have been doing it for years.

 

FP's and OP's need to scale they need to be dynamic, not a scripted dance based on bring the correct mix of partners. They are new and interesting only until you complete them after that they are just a run through farm fest, I did one last night (maelstrom prison I think) and we flew threw it with hardly a stop to speak in about 20 minutes. All that work they put into building what is a good story and a great environment and no one even notices.

 

Now I know they are revamping some of them but they are just raising the gear check bar, they need to be re-thinking how these should work.

 

For example, take the over population of DPS and the lower compliment of heals and tanks, why not dynamically adjust the mobs around the group composition so that if you took more DPS and didnt have heals then you could burn down the higher HP mobs if you were clever with CC - not to the extent where any one composition of group was better than any other in terms of rewards but such that all could be viable, within reason.

 

It just needs better thought and design, nothing wrong with tank, spank and mend but there are other ways too

[JPryde]

Out of 8 classes, 3 can heal, 3 can tank, only 2 are limited to being only DD. (all 8 classes can be DD).

 

So with any kind of normal distribution, we should have a higher number of classes in game, that would at least be able to fulfill the role of tank or healer, even if they are not properly geared for it.

 

The decision, not to play a specialist, but rather go the pure-DD-route, is purely a players decision.

 

At this time in game, there is no chance to change all 4-player encounters to 5 or 6 player encounters. Not only would all enemies be needed to get revamped, but all healer and tank abilities as well.

 

With 4 basic classes, the decision to use 4 as the base number of encounters seems rather logical to me as well. Theoretically you could form a group with one of each basic class and every loot would automatically not be fought over. If you require 5 or 6 for a group, you are automatically forcing a double or triple on one class, which will automatically have to compete for the loot (and please don't tell me, that noone would care, people on this forums are complaining about everything !).

[Michirure]

(...)EQ copied these basics. WoW copied EQ and removed the Controller by spreading it's abilities to the other 3, and by spreading around more DPS to everyone to further simplify it.

TOR's game mechanics and concepts come from a direct line through those 3 games(...)

Sad, but true.

On a side note, groups or raids built around only tank, healer and dps tend to have less interesting encounter mechanics (at least in my opinion). Often the difficulty consists only in not hitting enrage timers. This is so.. meh.

 

I really loved the bard and enchanter classes in EQ2. Too true, raid bosses then (maybe still, I don't play it anymore) were control immune, but my coercer and both troubadour and dirge found a lot of other things to do. I fondly remember Veeshan's Peek or Byzola in SoH back. Not a single mob with a dull enrage timer and still challenging and fun. Well, at least back then. The memorys

 

In SWTOR I'd like to have bosses with more abilities, horribly hard hitting - and classes with more skills in their book to counter these. I don't know, not only this "bring enough dps and go to town"-encounters.

[Tachenko_Yuri]

So SWTOR like the majority of MMO's out there adhere to the trinity system: Tank, DPS, Heals.

 

Now, in SWTOR we have 4-man groups for regular Flashpoints, and 8 or 16-man groups for Operations.

For 4-man Flashpoint groups in particular these will consist of 1 tank, 2 DPS and 1 healer.

 

We all know that tanks and healers are in short supply, whilst DPS are a dime a dozen. So the question is simple really - why would their design revolve around having only 2 DPS for every Flashpoint group?

 

Would queue times not be faster from a DPS perspective if a Flashpoint group consisted of say a tank, 4 DPS and a healer? Or even 5-6 DPS?

I do not have the metrics of course, but any way you look at it - something could and should be done about the queue waiting times for DPS - and it is clearly not enough to make the tank and healer classes more appealing - people like those large damage numbers too much. And I suppose this is the inherent flaw in the trinity system.

 

So to re-iterate, why break from the norm (don't make me say WoW) when the outcome is a longer wait for DPS?

 

Yeah I'll tell you why.

 

It's not that there are too many DPS but too few tank/heals

 

Which reason can be attributed to many motives,some of which:

 

1) People unwilling to take responsabilites within the group. Easy to just nuke as much possible without any management.

2)People who actually tried tanking or healing but got put down cuz of some idiot kid starting kick votes for not holding aggro or not being able to heal properly when it's probably the kid itself that jumped head first into 2 FP mobs and got the wipe , a true Tachenko Story is when during mandalorian raiders, tank got a vote kick because he wasn't able to hold aggro unto the beasts, cuz obviously tank was busy holding braxx off. Tank got offended and rightfully so,quit, even if the vote failed. Can't blame him.

3)People that are too egocentric and don't like to be schooled by more experience gamers, and rather take multiple wipes than ask for the know-how for the various bosses. Personally, the know-how for the bosses is the first thing I ask for.

[Atramar]

2 steps to fix problem for op

 

roll a tank or a healer (or get a friend to faster ques)

benefit.

 

every time I hear some1 crying 'dps ques are long, why tanks/healers not queing' , I ask 'well, roll a tank/healer then' I hear 'no, tanking and healiung sux, I want to dps'

 

there you go

 

not to mention, half of those dps are terrible.. some probably do less damage then me with my jugg tank...

Edited March 28, 2013 by Atramar

[Tachenko_Yuri]

 

every time I hear some1 crying 'dps ques are long, why tanks/healers not queing' , I ask 'well, roll a tank/healer then' I hear 'no, tanking and healiung sux, I want to dps'

 

4) This

[Elear]

every time I hear some1 crying 'dps ques are long, why tanks/healers not queing' , I ask 'well, roll a tank/healer then' I hear 'no, tanking and healiung sux, I want to dps'

 

Every time I hear someone crying about long queue times as DPS, I wonder if I'm only one that sometimes gets instant pops on DPS or flashpoints with 2 healers(on queued as DPS, could be tanks too but harder to tell)

[Atramar]

Every time I hear someone crying about long queue times as DPS, I wonder if I'm only one that sometimes gets instant pops on DPS or flashpoints with 2 healers(on queued as DPS, could be tanks too but harder to tell)

 

actually, happened to me once, me on my tank, guildy as healer, we thought 'we gonna make some 2 dps very happy'

we got grouped with another '2 man', pt tank and operative healer... both marked as dps...

[Ocho-Quatro]

... something could and should be done about the queue waiting times for DPS - and it is clearly not enough to make the tank and healer classes more appealing - people like those large damage numbers too much. And I suppose this is the inherent flaw in the trinity system...

 

If pure DPS classes want to make Tanks/Healers "more appealing" then quite frankly, it's not really Bioware's job to do so. It's the DPS players themselves. Because, the single biggest reason that I cringe to queue in the GF with my tank or healer, is because of how bad the majority of the dps are. You have commandos who will alpha strike a group of adds with mortar volley, and then get angry at the tank because he's not holding initial aggro, and the healer is working double-time to keep the commando alive.... Or you have a sentinel who thinks it's a good idea to Force Leap to the Elites in the group to start a fight, and then wonder why they only lived for 6 seconds, and blame the healer for not healing, or the tank for not holding aggro. FAR too many pure dps players, have no understanding of how threat works, or the simple idea that expecting a tank to keep his taunts on cooldown is a BAD idea, and a bad expectation for the tank. (A good tank can/should hold the majority of the aggro without having to taunt, keeping taunt available for when a healer pulls, or to handle a mechanic... but taunt within the first couple seconds of a fight (which is what tanks HAVE to do to counteract bad dps players) is a bad way of tanking. If I had a nickle for every time I saw a Shadow stealth and go to sap a target, and either a DPS starts the fight before he makes it there, or, he makes it there, saps a target, and the dps immediately attacks THAT target... well, I would have a lot of nickles.

 

Granted... there ARE plenty of bad tanks and healers in this game. They are not all perfect. BUT since there are so many more DPS players across the board, you have a higher probability of running into the bad ones in far more GF encounters. So the good tanks/healers, decide not to queue unless they are with full, or near full guild groups.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Ocho-Quatro

[Cleet_Xia]

There is no shortage of tanks or healers playing the game. The specs are actually some of the most common, based on the PUGS that form for the Heroic missions that are part of the dailies in Section X & the Black Hole area.

 

There IS a shortage of tanks and healers who are willing to PUG through the GF.

 

If roughly 25% of the dps players are total jack-hats (which is a pretty fair estimation according to players that main on a healers or tanks), there is a 50% chance that a GF PUG will have at least one idiot DPS in the group. So half the time a tank or healer queues up ~ they don't really enjoy the experience. And everytime they queue up ~ they're prepaired ot have a bad experience and possibly end up leaving the group. Why would they queue up for a PUG with odds like that?

 

If the number of DPS players per group were increased, it would just increase the probability of having another bad experience for healers and tanks. That doesn't equal groups forming more rapidly for DPS players using the GF. That does equal fewer tanks and healers using the GF to join PUGs.

 

If anything they need to design some 3 person content that only requires 1 DPS and a DPS companion, and some content that is tuned for 4 DPS players without a healer or a tank.

[DarthTHC]

Neither tanking nor healing are terribly challenging in this game, at least not until you get into HM operations.

 

My advice for those who feel inconvenienced by waiting on queue as a DPS is to go ahead and roll a tank and/or healer. Be part of the solution instead of a value-less, complaining bystander.

[Malkavier]

There is no shortage of tanks or healers playing the game. The specs are actually some of the most common, based on the PUGS that form for the Heroic missions that are part of the dailies in Section X & the Black Hole area.

 

There IS a shortage of tanks and healers who are willing to PUG through the GF.

 

If roughly 25% of the dps players are total jack-hats (which is a pretty fair estimation according to players that main on a healers or tanks), there is a 50% chance that a GF PUG will have at least one idiot DPS in the group. So half the time a tank or healer queues up ~ they don't really enjoy the experience. And everytime they queue up ~ they're prepaired ot have a bad experience and possibly end up leaving the group. Why would they queue up for a PUG with odds like that?

 

If the number of DPS players per group were increased, it would just increase the probability of having another bad experience for healers and tanks. That doesn't equal groups forming more rapidly for DPS players using the GF. That does equal fewer tanks and healers using the GF to join PUGs.

 

If anything they need to design some 3 person content that only requires 1 DPS and a DPS companion, and some content that is tuned for 4 DPS players without a healer or a tank.

 

Even better, some that a tank and healer can queue with their DPS companions, and completely leave the DerPS idling on Fleet. Yes, I play all three types of the Trinity. I think my least favorite to play is tank, due to stupid Leap Monkeys.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

His point was instead of 4 man groups why not allow 5 or 6 or even 7 man groups instead of just 4. Argument being that it will allow more people to find a group, which would make for shorter queue times.

 

Luke, Ben, Han, Chewie.

 

Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie.

 

4 is the Star Wars group size.

[DarthTHC]

Even better, some that a tank and healer can queue with their DPS companions, and completely leave the DerPS idling on Fleet. Yes, I play all three types of the Trinity. I think my least favorite to play is tank, due to stupid Leap Monkeys.

 

When I get idiots like that on my tank, I warn them once. Their second warning, if the group hasn't vote-kicked them yet, is telling the healer not to heal them in party chat. Their third warning, again if the group hasn't vote-kicked them yet, is a vote kick.

 

Every single one of my pets is a superior DPS to an impatient or griefing player.

[genesiser]

You know, normally when I play an MMO, I play a tank class. It's what I've always done and always enjoyed. Then, I played this game and found tanking in this game very frustrating. Now, I didn't get aggravated because I couldn't hold threat or I would die, but instead I was always getting stunned or knocked back or some other loss of control to my character and if there's one thing I get annoyed with when playing these games, it's getting cc'd.

 

Granted, I was tanking when the game first came out and after two months of playing I left and then came back about a month ago and I have no idea if the npcs still CC like they used to. But anyway, if it wasn't for all the cc the enemies use, there would be at least one more tank out there queuing up to make queue times a bit less for the dps. Hopefully they tone down the CC in the expansion or just get rid of it for PvE because all it does is frustrate a player.

[Hyfy]

Luke, Ben, Han, Chewie.

 

Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie.

 

4 is the Star Wars group size.

 

Well then by your logic our 8 and 16 man ops groups break lore and should be removed from the game. This game has already proven that deviation from the movie "lore" is acceptable. So why not allow for a more diverse group with larger party sizes. Sorry but your argument just doesn't hold water.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Hyfy

[Hyfy]

When I get idiots like that on my tank, I warn them once. Their second warning, if the group hasn't vote-kicked them yet, is telling the healer not to heal them in party chat. Their third warning, again if the group hasn't vote-kicked them yet, is a vote kick.

 

Every single one of my pets is a superior DPS to an impatient or griefing player.

 

If I get the DPS that decide that they are going to be the tank by virtue of jumping the gun and getting agrro first I just back off and let them tank. When they get pissed off at me for not ranking I let em know to either let me.get aggro first or they can go ahead and tank while I watch.

[ElitehunterDS]

Please go ahead and do some of the flashpoints without a single healer or tank. Wonder how long you'd last against some of the bosses. Dps cannot heal either as they are supposed to dps according to your rules.

3 dps + 1 heal HM lost Island 6 month ago, what is your point?

Tank are overrated.

 

Seeing that the maximum i got queued is 25min i dont see the issue, compared to my wow days, 35-120min..

Edited March 28, 2013 by ElitehunterDS

[Syas]

So SWTOR like the majority of MMO's out there adhere to the trinity system: Tank, DPS, Heals.

 

Now, in SWTOR we have 4-man groups for regular Flashpoints, and 8 or 16-man groups for Operations.

For 4-man Flashpoint groups in particular these will consist of 1 tank, 2 DPS and 1 healer.

 

We all know that tanks and healers are in short supply, whilst DPS are a dime a dozen. So the question is simple really - why would their design revolve around having only 2 DPS for every Flashpoint group?

 

Would queue times not be faster from a DPS perspective if a Flashpoint group consisted of say a tank, 4 DPS and a healer? Or even 5-6 DPS?

I do not have the metrics of course, but any way you look at it - something could and should be done about the queue waiting times for DPS - and it is clearly not enough to make the tank and healer classes more appealing - people like those large damage numbers too much. And I suppose this is the inherent flaw in the trinity system.

 

So to re-iterate, why break from the norm (don't make me say WoW) when the outcome is a longer wait for DPS?

 

5 isn't norm. EQ1/Lotro is 6 for example.

 

Why 4? Because their model supports that. I am sure the fact that there are 4 base classes per side figures into that design method.

[Kurokage]

If I get the DPS that decide that they are going to be the tank by virtue of jumping the gun and getting agrro first I just back off and let them tank. When they get pissed off at me for not ranking I let em know to either let me.get aggro first or they can go ahead and tank while I watch.

 

I'm currently leveling up a healer, so when a DPS jumps the gun and doesn't let the tank do his job, then I just don't heal him. Healing two people instead of three makes my job a lot easier, and sometimes allows me to at least keep the tank and the other DPS alive in a situation where we would have wiped.

 

Incidentally, if they change the system to add more DPS to groups, making it 3-4 or even 5-6 DPS with still just one healer and tank, I'm going to respec all my healers to DPS. Because being the only healer in a group with that many DPS would be an absolute nightmare, especially during lower levels when all you have are a couple of single-target heals. Being a tank wouldn't be much fun either, with so many extra DPS generating threat.

 

The best way to queue faster is to roll a healer or tank. Help fix the problem yourself rather than begging the devs to screw over healers and tanks just to speed up DPS queues.

[slafko]

If anything they need to design some 3 person content that only requires 1 DPS and a DPS companion, and some content that is tuned for 4 DPS players without a healer or a tank.

 

Because that's a lot easier than people actually learning how to play.

[slafko]

If I get the DPS that decide that they are going to be the tank by virtue of jumping the gun and getting agrro first I just back off and let them tank. When they get pissed off at me for not ranking I let em know to either let me.get aggro first or they can go ahead and tank while I watch.

I'm currently leveling up a healer, so when a DPS jumps the gun and doesn't let the tank do his job, then I just don't heal him.

The game needs more people playing by these standards.