Darth Malgus vs Darth Bane vs Darth Vader

[LordQordisz]

I'd say Vader in all 3.

 

Now we are given in the SW Universe various points in Vader's life. Some where he was down and when he was up. There was a point in Vader's life when he was very dissappointed with his suit, "he was even going to have to call on the Force to move from place to place!" [TRoDV, p. 60] Also at this time as he was finding himself Vader's fighting, "was clumsy, and his strikes were mostly vertical... At various times his stances and techniques mimicked those of Ataro and Soresu but Vader appeared to lack a style of his own, and executed his moves stiffly." [p. 71] Vader did not like his suit, felt it limited him, and thought Sidious meant this and exclaimed to his master, "if this suit didn't restrict me to the point of immobility!" [p. 128]

 

Now I note some people say that vader's suit limited him, as Vader himself believed, or rather that his injuries did so. However, if we are to take what Sidious believed into account, Vader's limits were set by Vader himself.

 

"Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical." [p. 142]

 

Obviously these are some of Vader's early trials after he was first in jured and trying to adjust to his new suit. Being part machine I'd think Vader would have some stiffness in even his everyday movement as a doctor on the Death Star noted, "Uli stared at the tall, black-cloaked figure. He knew about Vader, of course. He'd seen vids of the man - if that was what he really still was under the suit, which looked like it contained some type of cyclic respiratory system, and probably bionic prosthetics as well, judging by his gait. The stiffness was subtle, but there if you knew where to look." [Death Star, p. 87]

 

From these 2 books alone one can glean some of the Force abilities Vader does possess such as: Force scream, bolstering his physical strength, foresight [although I believe he lost his ability after he was badly scarred], communicate with others through the Force, Force leaping, various telekenetics such as tear equipment apart or throw it at his opponents, deflect blaster beams with the Force, stopping someone's heart and breathing.

 

It is said that Vader "retained his knowledge of the Jedi arts" [TRoDV, p. 59] so some abilities like healing with the Force were probably still at his command.

[jedimasterjac]

I'm sorry, I don't think Vader could beat Bane. However, Malgus and Vader would be a close competition. I feel that Malgus could end up getting the upper hand, considering he has some minor force capabilities (Such as the force lightning seen in the Alderaan trailer), while Vader only had Force Choke. Malgus was also one of the greatest warriors of his time, meaning his saber skills could end up beating Vader, seeing as how his cybernetics slowed his movement. Bane, though, his power would depend on his time. At the peak of his power, he could beat all 3.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Let's face it this was never a debate in the first place, the way people are conducting themselves is just annoying me now - if Vader had Canon on his side or would be acceptable but he does not, so there is plenty of room to have this discussion. But instead I'm met with a barrage of stats and insults and quotes from bygone threads of people doing the sane thing. I'm out.

 

/unsubscribe

 

What? All of what I put is canon.

 

I'm sorry, I don't think Vader could beat Bane. However, Malgus and Vader would be a close competition. I feel that Malgus could end up getting the upper hand, considering he has some minor force capabilities (Such as the force lightning seen in the Alderaan trailer), while Vader only had Force Choke. Malgus was also one of the greatest warriors of his time, meaning his saber skills could end up beating Vader, seeing as how his cybernetics slowed his movement. Bane, though, his power would depend on his time. At the peak of his power, he could beat all 3.

 

No...Vader wins, again...his cybernetics didn't slow him down to the point where he couldn't keep up with faster opponents. Also his saber skills beating Vader? HA! No...Vader uses a mix of a style, that would be completely alien to both Bane and Malgus.

 

Anyway am done with this.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Kaedusz]

No...Vader wins, again...his cybernetics didn't slow him down to the point where he couldn't keep up with faster opponents. Also his saber skills beating Vader? HA! No...Vader uses a mix of a style, that would be completely alien to both Bane and Malgus.

 

 

I am not even sure if you are serious. lol

 

Vader is a clunky cyborg.A cyborg!!!Chosen one or not,his only flesh is basically his torso and head and it is damaged at that.Absolutely helpless piece of meat that will decompose in 1 second if Bane uses force lightning.You need flesh and organic matter to use the force properly.Just because he is the chosen one he will maybe come close behind Malgus and Bane.But he can't defeat powerful ancient Sith( and proper ones i may add) like them.

 

It took Cipher Nine,Grand Champion of the Great Hunt,Darth Nox and the Emperor's Warth combined to defeat Malgus.Vader who had problems with Boba Fett? I mean this is not even a competition and i am still very very amused by the Vader fanboy fanclub in this thread.

 

Vader uses a mix of a style, *that would be completely alien to both Bane and Malgus*.

 

are you kidding me?

Edited March 31, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Berronaxftw]

Vader would win cus he has a bad *** theme tune!

[MyDarkSunshine]

The following isn't directly relevant to the debate as such, but is to how many of the debates on these forums are reasoned.

 

Interestingly enough people use the word canon a lot here, especially in debates, and frequently use quotes from Lucas himself as "end game" arguments. In which case it may be worth considering the following (all taken from the wiki-page on the subject):

 

"The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

 

Guess that blows the Sidious can use Force storms in space idea out the window, as it does many of his more powerful abilities. Also means Luke didn't necessarily become an all powerful Grand Master either. Which means in any reasoned comparison of abilities these two are going to fall far short of their "best Sith and bestest Jedi ever" titles.

 

The point I'm trying to make here? Much of the facts taken for granted by these forum go'ers aren't necessarily true at all if we are taking Lucas' word as law: which by the way, is a horrible idea.

 

There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe.

 

If he doesn't get involved with this 'parallel universe' he clearly has no knowledge of the powers of other characters and consequently cannot accurately compare them to his own creations. Thus any statement made by Lucas regarding power levels is done so from a limited perspective. Sure, he created the franchise but as he admits:

 

After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story—however many films it took to tell—was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga.

 

His story isn't the only one, nor is his insight into and views of the universe he created.

[Aurbere]

The following isn't directly relevant to the debate as such, but is to how many of the debates on these forums are reasoned.

 

Interestingly enough people use the word canon a lot here, especially in debates, and frequently use quotes from Lucas himself as "end game" arguments. In which case it may be worth considering the following (all taken from the wiki-page on the subject):

 

 

 

Guess that blows the Sidious can use Force storms in space idea out the window, as it does many of his more powerful abilities. Also means Luke didn't necessarily become an all powerful Grand Master either. Which means in any reasoned comparison of abilities these two are going to fall far short of their "best Sith and bestest Jedi ever" titles.

 

The point I'm trying to make here? Much of the facts taken for granted by these forum go'ers aren't necessarily true at all if we are taking Lucas' word as law: which by the way, is a horrible idea.

 

 

 

If he doesn't get involved with this 'parallel universe' he clearly has no knowledge of the powers of other characters and consequently cannot accurately compare them to his own creations. Thus any statement made by Lucas regarding power levels is done so from a limited perspective. Sure, he created the franchise but as he admits:

 

 

 

His story isn't the only one, nor is his insight into and views of the universe he created.

 

You're forgetting one person: Leland Chee. He is as close to Lucas as you can get, and he has repeatedly said that Palpatine and Luke are the best. So we don't need George's word, we can just use Leland Chee (Continuity Keeper).

[Ventessel]

You're forgetting one person: Leland Chee. He is as close to Lucas as you can get, and he has repeatedly said that Palpatine and Luke are the best. So we don't need George's word, we can just use Leland Chee (Continuity Keeper).

 

DarkSunshine raises some very good points. Out of curiosity, what precisely has Mr. Chee said on this matter?

[Aurbere]

DarkSunshine raises some very good points. Out of curiosity, what precisely has Mr. Chee said on this matter?

 

I'd have to dig for the Luke one, but here is something on Sidious.

 

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

 

In the quote, Leland Chee says that Yoda is the most powerful practitioner of the Light Side. Which is true, considering the movies only, without GL's quotes.

 

However, it should also be pointed out that there are two universes here, as dictated by Leland Chee. There is the Film Continuity, and then there is the Film + EU continuity. Which basically implies that whatever is G-canon applies to the EU as well. So we have Lucas' quotes saying that Luke and Sidious are the best, which applies to the whole of Star Wars, even if Lucas doesn't pay attention to it.

 

So we can look at it as such:

 

Yoda: Most powerful Jedi Pre-Luke

Sidious: Most powerful Sith

Luke Skywalker: Most powerful Jedi

 

We can delve into the EU to back up said statements.

 

The issue I find with comparing EU characters to G-canon characters is that people decide to ignore G-canon and the EU of particular characters. Let's take Dark Empire for instance. Sidious' display of power clearly shows him to be incredibly powerful, but this is ignored (for whatever reason) in favor of saying Sidious got killed like a chump and that he would lose to anybody.

 

The same can be said of Vader. Much of his EU is ignored in favor of a "movie only" perspective. In the movies he moves slowly. In the EU, he fights normally, with a small decrease to mobility. Vader's EU capabilities are ignored, even though he is compared to EU characters. Which would mean that the EU characters themselves can be ignored, making any debate pointless.

[Kaedusz]

 

However, it should also be pointed out that there are two universes here,* as dictated * by Leland Chee.

 

 

you kidding right?

 

Star Wars is a bunch of stories made up by different people almost always disconnected from one another roughly put together to form a barely coherent universe.If someone thinks he can dictate to me how i perceive and interpret things ,beyond the movies,hes got another thing coming.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Kaedusz

[MyDarkSunshine]

Interesting, appreciate the response. A shame we cannot access the continuity database.

 

In the quote, Leland Chee says that Yoda is the most powerful practitioner of the Light Side. Which is true, considering the movies only, without GL's quotes.

 

However, it should also be pointed out that there are two universes here, as dictated by Leland Chee. There is the Film Continuity, and then there is the Film + EU continuity. Which basically implies that whatever is G-canon applies to the EU as well. So we have Lucas' quotes saying that Luke and Sidious are the best, which applies to the whole of Star Wars, even if Lucas doesn't pay attention to it.

 

I can follow your reasoning up to the bold part. G-canon applies to the EU to a certain extent I can agree, for instance Lucas made it clear no one should interfere with how Anakin was conceived and details like that. However I disagree that by extention of Film canon being the highest tier of canon, it should dictate things about the EU that do not necessarily contradict it. Okay, somewhat vague, let me explain.

 

If the EU were to directly contradict the movies, for instance claiming that during the time period covered by the movies a Sith existed more powerful than Sidious, I'd agree that the EU is wrong. However to claim that Force users might have existed, even Sith, in other periods of time that could rival Sidious seems perfectly reasonable.

 

I also disagree that Lucas can comment on, with any degree of authority, things he clearly and admittedly has no knowledge of. It simply doesn't follow in any reasoned debate that someone with no knowledge of a subject can be quoted as a reliable source.

 

As such, the quote regarding Sidious and Luke being the most powerful remains true within the confines of Lucas' knowledge: the movies and time period leading from Anakin's birth to his redemption. There is simply no logical reason to assume it applies across the entirety of vast creation that is now Star Wars.

 

Slightly off-topic continuation of trail of thought follows:

Other such quotes like "golden age of the Jedi" etc should also be considered in the same vein- that one in particular is open to interpretation and I've seen some very good reasoning to claim it is true, and equally good reasoning suggesting it must be false.

 

More black and white however are things like using both the light side and dark side in unison. Plenty of reasoning (without Lucas' quotes being required, I might add) why it cannot be done and merely stretchy reasons why it might be possible... Of course this does not prohibit it being possible if a writer can come up with an inventive enough explanation, but it is reasonable to assume it cannot be done until proven otherwise.

 

So we can look at it as such:

 

Yoda: Most powerful Jedi Pre-Luke

Sidious: Most powerful Sith

Luke Skywalker: Most powerful Jedi

 

We can delve into the EU to back up said statements.

 

Based solely on Mr. Chee's comments it might be more accurate to say the following:

 

Yoda: most powerful light side practitioner of his time.

Sidious: most powerful dark side practitioner of his time.

Luke Skywalker: arguably most powerful Force user of his time.

 

Why "of his time", do I hear you ask? Because it is simply more realistic to measure them as such. Sportsman are only effectively compared against those they compete against, and Scientists are only compared in a similar fashion. Who was the best scientific mind in the history of mankind? It simply isn't possible to be certain. Yes, we're talking fiction vs non-fiction but that is reasoned debate for you.

 

The EU might well suggest that Luke is indeed the most powerful Jedi ever, and there is no problem with arguing such and drawing on his capabilities & achievements to reason this conclusion. In fact such reasoning should be encouraged and valued far more than the bad form that is "but Lucas/Chee said this!".

 

It is also worth noting such things are never absolute. The EU might suggest Luke is far more powerful than [insert anyone else] but that does not necessarily mean he would beat them in a landslide victory. As Drew says, such things come down to the demands of the narrative. Not to mention the fact no one is omniscient or omnipotent, there is always a way for a character - even a powerful one, to lose.

 

The issue I find with comparing EU characters to G-canon characters is that people decide to ignore G-canon and the EU of particular characters. Let's take Dark Empire for instance. Sidious' display of power clearly shows him to be incredibly powerful, but this is ignored (for whatever reason) in favor of saying Sidious got killed like a chump and that he would lose to anybody.

 

The same can be said of Vader. Much of his EU is ignored in favor of a "movie only" perspective. In the movies he moves slowly. In the EU, he fights normally, with a small decrease to mobility. Vader's EU capabilities are ignored, even though he is compared to EU characters. Which would mean that the EU characters themselves can be ignored, making any debate pointless.

 

This is also bad form on their part. Just because you (not you specifically, general 'you') do not like a story does not mean the story's insights into characters should be ignored in a debate based on the overall story of the universe. I may personally dislike Sidious after becoming a clone, Luke being so powerful, or what happened to Revan and Meetra- but the stories of these events are still perfectly valid sources to draw on in such debates.

 

That said, G-canon in the form of "Lucas/Chee says..." should be taken with a pinch of salt and not be considered sacrosanct. They both have valuable insight into the universe that is well worth considering, I just find dictation of power levels without reasoned evidence to be in bad taste.

 

Apologizes to the original post for going off topic. I'd love to reply but I do not know enough about the characters involved to do so in any depth, or in any way not already covered. However I could see why certain participants in the debate were getting frustrated and felt the need to comment.

Edited April 1, 2013 by MyDarkSunshine

[Wolfninjajedi]

Edit: Nvrm that is a convo between you and Aurbere shall not get involved.

 

But anyway...you can't really for movie characters anyway ignore the EU of them when in a debate. The EU and movies aren't separate from one another, its all the same thing. Taking away the EU from them, is pretty much ripping a huge chunk of the character away and leaving them bare bones. Its best to instead, state the time period of the character so therefore what they do after isn't involved just the things that happen before and during that time.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ventessel]

An interesting observation to make, after watching a lot of the bonus content and behind the scenes videos from the Star Wars saga, is that the prequel era Jedi are considerably more skilled than Luke is ever shown to be in the films.

 

George Lucas himself said that the reason the fighting is deliberately faster and more intense in the prequels is because he wanted to show "fully trained Jedi" as compared to Luke, who was only approaching that level by the time of RotJ. His duel with Vader on the DS was meant to show him as a Jedi who had been largely self-taught, but was strong enough to be considered equal with the earlier, better trained Jedi who existed during the "golden age".

 

The things Lucas said about his reasoning behind the various duels, from Bespin all the way to Mustafar, really gives new perspective on the powers of the Jedi we see. Luke is never intended to be all-powerful, he is merely exceptionally strong in the Force, and Lucas assumes he will eventually grow into that mantle, but it is not shown in the films. By Lucas' own statement, Luke would get floored in a duel with any of the Jedi from the prequels, although by the time of his second duel with Vader, Lucas said that Luke was around the level of a trained Jedi Knight.

 

So rather than using single phrases from visual dictionaries and other guidebooks which make blanket statements, I think it would be much more reasonable to do as DarkSunshine suggests and evaluate the characters we see based on the actual things they are capable of doing.

 

This does mean that characters like Vader require a more complex analysis because they only display a fraction of their power in the films, and are shown to be much more competent in the EU. But it does make some sense that Vader was holding back during his duels with Luke because he didn't want to kill him, just turn him to the Dark Side. The problem was that he made Luke a bit too angry, and was overwhelmed by his son's assault.

[Wolfninjajedi]

That is what I keep trying to tell people Vent about Luke, they no listen! I keep saying that Luke was able to fight equally with his dad, and how he was powerful by ROTJ but they keep blowing it off even after I put forth the evidence. Edited April 1, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ventessel]

That is what I keep trying to tell people Vent about Luke, they no listen! I keep saying that Luke was able to fight equally with his dad, and how he was powerful by ROTJ but they keep blowing it off even after I put forth the evidence.

 

I mean, he was still relatively untrained in the Force and whatnot, but in terms of pure saber skills he could mostly keep up. When he got aggressive, he was really able to do some damage. However, even George Lucas has said that Vader was crippled and not fighting with anywhere near the ability he had demonstrated prior to his injuries.

 

It's just in the EU works about him (which are a little... fanboy-ish) that he is portrayed as this god of battle. He's really just become very cautious in his swordplay and learned to use cybernetic strength to compensate for his lack of speed. As Anakin, he could afford some sloppiness and recover from it, but as Vader, he has no room to make errors or he'll die.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I mean, he was still relatively untrained in the Force and whatnot, but in terms of pure saber skills he could mostly keep up. When he got aggressive, he was really able to do some damage. However, even George Lucas has said that Vader was crippled and not fighting with anywhere near the ability he had demonstrated prior to his injuries.

 

It's just in the EU works about him (which are a little... fanboy-ish) that he is portrayed as this god of battle. He's really just become very cautious in his swordplay and learned to use cybernetic strength to compensate for his lack of speed. As Anakin, he could afford some sloppiness and recover from it, but as Vader, he has no room to make errors or he'll die.

 

Which is why Vader was such a monster in combat, he wasn't arrogant or sloppy(at least not until he got used to his suit), he wasn't the same as he was pre-Mustafar he learned from his mistakes, and used what he had going against him instead of fighting it. Though Luke untrained in The Force? He wasn't, he was able to use mind trick, levitation, force jump, force absorb(abit brief). telepathy, and so forth. Of course this is mostly shown during between the movies....

 

Also that is another thing, even if someone doesn't read the EU stuff. TIME STILL PASSES in the movies...so taking that into account, still shows that Luke grew stronger...hell this is even stated by Palpatine and Vader.

 

"He has grown strong, only together can we turn him to the darkside of The Force."

 

"Indeed you are powerful as the Emperor as foreseen."

Edited April 1, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[that_Spartan_IV]

1. Vader.

2. Vader.

3. Vader.

 

He could've killed Luke at any chance if he weren't his son. For everyone saying he lost to an untrained Luke in Episode VI, I'll just quote Luke when he talks about the Bespin duel: "You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before and I don't believe you will now."

 

Luke: "I sense the good in you, the conflict."

 

Even the Emperor in Episode III says to Yoda "You will not stop me, Darth Vader will become more powerful than EITHER OF US!" *byooomlightsabernoise*

[Wolfninjajedi]

1. Vader.

2. Vader.

3. Vader.

 

He could've killed Luke at any chance if he weren't his son. For everyone saying he lost to an untrained Luke in Episode VI, I'll just quote Luke when he talks about the Bespin duel: "You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before and I don't believe you will now."

 

Luke: "I sense the good in you, the conflict."

 

Even the Emperor in Episode III says to Yoda "You will not stop me, Darth Vader will become more powerful than EITHER OF US!" *byooomlightsabernoise*

 

 

Vader was perfectly fine with killing Luke as per the ROTJ novelization.

 

“You are unwise to lower your defenses,” Vader warned. His anger was layered, now—he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight...then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.

 

--Taken from Return of the Jedi

 

Also that quote from Palps was in regards to Vader without being in the suit, when he was in his suit he lost that potential to become more powerful than Yoda/Sidious.

 

Another thing, but Luke was NOT UNTRAINED. People really need to see past this...time passed, Luke advanced in his skill as a Jedi and by ROTJ was a fully trained Jedi Knight, he wasn't untrained by any stretch.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[that_Spartan_IV]

Vader was perfectly fine with killing Luke as per the ROTJ novelization.

 

Also that quote from Palps was in regards to Vader without being in the suit, when he was in his suit he lost that potential to become more powerful than Yoda/Sidious.

 

So the line "I sense the good in you. The conflict." means nothing now? Because I'm pretty sure that if there was a conflict (Which Luke sensed) then Vader would NOT be okay with killing Luke.

 

These novelizations hurt the canon more than Ja-.....eeeh nevermind

[Wolfninjajedi]

So the line "I sense the good in you. The conflict." means nothing now? Because I'm pretty sure that if there was a conflict (Which Luke sensed) then Vader would NOT be okay with killing Luke.

 

These novelizations hurt the canon more than Ja-.....eeeh nevermind

 

Just because he says the line, doesn't mean it's true. Vader did reply back "There is no conflict, you underestimate the power of the darkside, if you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny!"

 

The novelizations are canon = to the movies, so they don't really hurt anything.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[that_Spartan_IV]

Just because he says the line, doesn't mean it's true. Vader did reply back "There is no conflict, you underestimate the power of the darkside, if you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny!"

 

The novelizations are canon = to the movies, so they don't really hurt anything.

 

I always thought he said that to try to push his feelings for Luke away, which makes more sense than Luke straight up lying.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I always thought he said that to try to push his feelings for Luke away, which makes more sense than Luke straight up lying.

 

The point being is that, Vader was still willing to kill Luke regardless of what Luke was saying to him. Luke was using reverse Dun Moch on Vader(if I recall correctly).

 

At any rate, this is kinda de-railing the thread here and we already know who wins.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[that_Spartan_IV]

The point being is that, Vader was still willing to kill Luke regardless of what Luke was saying to him. Luke was using reverse Dun Moch on Vader(if I recall correctly).

 

At any rate, this is kinda de-railing the thread here and we already know who wins.

 

Then we agree to disagree.

 

 

(Also Exar-Kun is over-rated >.> )