Instant Whirlwind/Force lift/Flasbang

[HoboWithAStick]

Because the only developer working on class balance plays a sniper.

 

This is true,

[Monterone]

a) Revert instant force lift, if not give it to all specs. It's single target after all, remember?

b) Increased knock-back range. Pushing anyone next to you leaves them under 10m, where all classes can hurt you and badly. I'm sure this is a reasonable thing to ask given that sages knockback has the shortest knockback distance, is directional and has no root/snare effects unless you spend 2 points deeply in a tree.

c) Egressed force speed for all specs.

 

Vanguard does have more cc than a balance sage now, isn't that weird. Plus a window of root immunity that dps sages don't have AND 2 extra root breaks on top of the one sage has; well everyone has one CC break so sage is no exception there. Vanguards get 2 more.

 

Madness Overload could use a 6s slow on it. Well madness could use all you listed plus more.

 

Kinda strange Lightning tree gets 6s slow on Chain Lightning plus a 0.5s root on it, a mezz on own bubble, 5 seconds off of Speed, 30 seconds off of Barrier, 3s off of Force Slow (making it 6s slow every 9s), AND a 5s root on Overload.

 

Madness? A big fat nothing. Just lost an instant WW. Madness should have faster sprints and lower Slow cooldown -- it's a kiting class, those are kiting tools. Lightning gets extra roots and mezzes because it's a turret play style, right? I don't understand why it also needs better kiting and better getaway tools as well. Don't get me wrong, I think all sorcs need this, I'm not trying to take it away from Lightning, but it is obvious Madness has nothing in comparison.

 

I salute all you players who choose to play madness in 2.0! I sure won't be.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader View Post

Because the only developer working on class balance plays a sniper.

 

^^

This more than anything. I challenge Peckenpaugh to delete or shelve his Sniper and main a Sorcerer for 3-4 months.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Monterone

[JackNader]

The vast majority of sorc players are simply going to go hybrid. I know I will as full madness is now quite pointless given all the root breaks and lackluster kiting tools.

[Seengularity]

Why did inquisitors and consulars lose the instant 8 second "talented' CC, while Agents and Smugglers keep their default non talented instant flash bang?

 

Why make strong classes stronger and weak ones weaker? I understand that maybe instawhirl or lift was too OP for sins or shadows, but how can that be taken from madness and balance sages/sorcs? WHILE a stronger class still has theirs and its not even talented? EDIT: AND its aoe! while lift is not.

 

Hush... stop pointing out these things guy! Snipers need this 30m stun / accu reducing flashbang or else they'd suck (how dare you Sir).

 

Because the only developer working on class balance plays a sniper.

 

^ Yep, probably same guy that gave em execution moves @level 18, when no class should have this at such low level, and if a class should, it would be assassins (note I don't have a sin, nor will I ever).

 

The developers stated themselves that snipers are supposed to have a 30m ranged CC as it goes in line with the class design concept. Working as intended.

 

This guy is a *********** joke... PLEASE transfer your notomorrow sniper/gs toon over to the Bastion. Please.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Seengularity

[Monterone]

The vast majority of sorc players are simply going to go hybrid. I know I will as full madness is now quite pointless given all the root breaks and lackluster kiting tools.

 

Madness is a stealthless, squishier, no-cc version of Lethality.

[AdmiralParmesan]

Madness is a stealthless, squishier, no-cc version of Lethality.

 

Except lethality also has more burst and deals more of its damage internally.

[Monterone]

Except lethality also has more burst and deals more of its damage internally.

 

And gets nice crit boosts -- 12% crit chance on periodic damage! For one point. Sweet... Seriously, even if sorc ever got something like this in Madness it would be 3 points for less crit. There is some strange bias against sorcs.

 

And as a healer class also, gets an execute range talent for damage under 30%. However Madness shouldn't have that since they can super heal, right? Or at least that's what players say, those who have issues dealing with madness sorcs.

 

I'll be playing hybrid too, at least until they kill it again. The amateur class balance team seems more intent on killing hybrids than tackling the actual reason why we choose to play hybrid.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Monterone

[JackNader]

it's not that they have a bias against them. It's simply that they don't actually play the class. It's really really difficult to gain a proper perspective of how a class interacts with every other class if you don't devote a significant amount of your time in playing them.

[MusicRider]

And they are totally right, cause Yoda and Palpatine were the weakest jedi/sith and the most boring. *sarcasm*

[Smuglebunny]

I find the silence from BW on this disturbing. Given the issues they do comment on.

 

The entire instant whirlwind/lift nerf should simply be reverted. Simple.

[AdmiralParmesan]

Bumping for the sake of bringing light to this issue. Make the instant whirlwind baseline, or make it a high teir ability for full madness sorcerers. As of currently full madness is probably one of the worst specs to bring in a rated warzone.

 

It has very limited burst, now very little control and limited group livability. The spec needs something to bring it back to relevance or it will simply be forgotten as a dueling spec/pve spec only.

[stringcat]

Hush... stop pointing out these things guy! Snipers need this 30m stun / accu reducing flashbang or else they'd suck (how dare you Sir).

 

It's a mezz. Snipers' stun is 4m. The accuracy reduction on the mezz is talented and sucks; I don't know anyone who takes it. The fact that you used the terms interchangeably tells me you don't know enough about the game to contribute useful feedback.

[Natharon]

Quick question for game makers.

 

Why did inquisitors and consulars lose the instant 8 second "talented' CC, while Agents and Smugglers keep their default non talented instant flash bang?

 

Why make strong classes stronger and weak ones weaker? I understand that maybe instawhirl or lift was too OP for sins or shadows, but how can that be taken from madness and balance sages/sorcs? WHILE a stronger class still has theirs and its not even talented? EDIT: AND its aoe! while lift is not.

 

This is my question.

 

I just want this logic explained cuz Im not aware of logic working in this way.

 

I have, a sin and a GS and a sage and an Op.

 

Give back lift/whirl.

 

Just because you state you have the class you want nerfed or ability copied from doesn't justify it. Thats like me saying HIB bolt should be a ranged AOE because I have a Guardian and he can Smash multiple people. Your logic is as flawed as the developers.

[dscount]

Yes there are two nerfs to shadows that also affected sages for no reason. No more instant force lift and armor reduction. As a result of these and other changes, sages have lost cc (a vanguard has more cc than a sage) and a lot of group utility with the removal of group bubble stun, and they are also more squishy. It is good that bubble stun goes, but no other class got such a nerf to their group utility in all patches; it was such a great group utility that every team wanted a bubble stunner in it. In return they got a) force barrier which is great for survivability if you have a healer around and has no other priorities, and it can also situationally help with objectives; and b) some good burst on their turret tree.

 

However, given the conditional usefulness of the barrier and these significant nerfs to the class they should either have:

-- The highest burst of all classes in a mobile spec

or

-- At least three more cc/kiting abilities given the buffs to the anti-kiting mechanisms. My suggestions have always been which can be included easily in 2.0:

a) Revert instant force lift, if not give it to all specs. It's single target after all, remember?

 

I agree. Removing more than giving us is complete garbage. Please put it back into Sorc/Sage Trees.

 

I also ECHO the same point made below by Smuglebunny:

I find the silence from BW on this disturbing. Given the issues they do comment on.

 

The entire instant whirlwind/lift nerf should simply be reverted. Simple.

[jolleebindu]

Because the only developer working on class balance plays a sniper.

 

maybe, maybe not, but I highly doubt anyone on the dev team has a Sage or Merc with valor 70 or up.... and it shows. Heck make it 60 even.

 

Yes there are two nerfs to shadows that also affected sages for no reason. No more instant force lift and armor reduction. As a result of these and other changes, sages have lost cc (a vanguard has more cc than a sage) and a lot of group utility with the removal of group bubble stun, and they are also more squishy. It is good that bubble stun goes, but no other class got such a nerf to their group utility in all patches; it was such a great group utility that every team wanted a bubble stunner in it. In return they got a) force barrier which is great for survivability if you have a healer around and has no other priorities, and it can also situationally help with objectives; and b) some good burst on their turret tree.

 

However, given the conditional usefulness of the barrier and these significant nerfs to the class they should either have:

-- The highest burst of all classes in a mobile spec

or

-- At least three more cc/kiting abilities given the buffs to the anti-kiting mechanisms. My suggestions have always been which can be included easily in 2.0:

a) Revert instant force lift, if not give it to all specs. It's single target after all, remember?

b) Increased knock-back range. Pushing anyone next to you leaves them under 10m, where all classes can hurt you and badly. I'm sure this is a reasonable thing to ask given that sages knockback has the shortest knockback distance, is directional and has no root/snare effects unless you spend 2 points deeply in a tree.

c) Egressed force speed for all specs.

 

Now, when I posted these things there was plenty of time to realise all three. Realistically speaking given the time now, I can only see the first two being achievable. Wishfully egressed force speed for all sages will come in one of the patches.

 

i agree with the idea that they should add another/different/boosted kiting ability to sages (given the buffs to rooting/kiting immunity that have been given out) - since they have a few tools to escape in their "set of abilities" i don't see another being "over-powering" beyond the fact that it would allow them to deal with the new "get on target/stay on target" abilities for melee'ish classes.

Edited March 30, 2013 by jolleebindu

[Sweeet]

Quick question for game makers.

 

Why did inquisitors and consulars lose the instant 8 second "talented' CC, while Agents and Smugglers keep their default non talented instant flash bang?

 

Why make strong classes stronger and weak ones weaker? I understand that maybe instawhirl or lift was too OP for sins or shadows, but how can that be taken from madness and balance sages/sorcs? WHILE a stronger class still has theirs and its not even talented? EDIT: AND its aoe! while lift is not.

 

This is my question.

 

I just want this logic explained cuz Im not aware of logic working in this way.

 

I have, a sin and a GS and a sage and an Op.

 

Give back lift/whirl.

 

Because you have a 10m stun, whereas we only have a 4m stun. It's give and take, deal with it.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Sweeet

[Tyrias]

Because you have a 10m stun, whereas we only have a 4m stun. It's give and take, deal with it.

 

But Debilitate also has a baseline 45s cooldown instead of a 1m cooldown of the Sorc stun. So it ALREADY balances out with your "give and take" rule. It doesn't make sense to use that to explain why a Sniper would get a 30m, AoE, instant cast mez, where a Sorc will, in 2.0, have a 30m, single target, casted mez.

 

It makes especially little sense when you consider that if anyone should be working with more hard casts and less instants, it should be the sniper who has cover and as such interrupt immunity.

[jolleebindu]

But Debilitate also has a baseline 45s cooldown instead of a 1m cooldown of the Sorc stun. So it ALREADY balances out with your "give and take" rule. It doesn't make sense to use that to explain why a Sniper would get a 30m, AoE, instant cast mez, where a Sorc will, in 2.0, have a 30m, single target, casted mez.

 

It makes especially little sense when you consider that if anyone should be working with more hard casts and less instants, it should be the sniper who has cover and as such interrupt immunity.

 

interesting point, but now i'm picturing my sage using dirty "force" kick on some marauder/sentinel... that is funny

[xxIncubixx]

I find it incredibly stupid to remove instant whirlwind. I even play mainly a sniper and a gunslinger I have been working on and still find it stupid along with the fact that sniper seems to remain the only viable ranged class and the gap seems to grow from it to sorce to merc.

 

this exactly, the only ranged class that is viable IS sniper... Merc is garbage , and sorc DPS is Meh at best.

[Feztonio]

you have bubble stun. you turn your entire team in into instant and continual aoe flashbangs.

[KettleBelll]

Because the only developer working on class balance plays a sniper.

 

/thread

[Monterone]

But Debilitate also has a baseline 45s cooldown instead of a 1m cooldown of the Sorc stun. So it ALREADY balances out with your "give and take" rule. It doesn't make sense to use that to explain why a Sniper would get a 30m, AoE, instant cast mez, where a Sorc will, in 2.0, have a 30m, single target, casted mez.

 

It makes especially little sense when you consider that if anyone should be working with more hard casts and less instants, it should be the sniper who has cover and as such interrupt immunity.

 

Exactly, if you wanna compare apples to apples... snipers are in cover, and they have entrench, they cannot be interrupted...

 

Wouldn't it make sense that if a single target interruptable cc has a cast time, then a Flash Bang in cover which cannot be interrupted should also have a cast time?

 

Or the one that can be interrupted should be instant?

Edited March 30, 2013 by Monterone

[AdmiralParmesan]

you have bubble stun. you turn your entire team in into instant and continual aoe flashbangs.

 

This shows that not only have you not read the patch notes, but you also don't know anything about the sorcerer specs. The bubble blind (backlash) is no longer given to allies on the PTS (which is what we are discussing). The bubble stun only applies to the sorceror if they cast it on themselves.

 

Furthermore the spec discussed here is the madness spec and it's lose of the instant whirlwind, not the lightning spec which has the bubble stun in its spec tree.

 

 

Maybe you should do some research before acting like you understand a class you obviously don't have a 50 with.