Smuglebunny Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Quick question for game makers. Why did inquisitors and consulars lose the instant 8 second "talented' CC, while Agents and Smugglers keep their default non talented instant flash bang? Why make strong classes stronger and weak ones weaker? I understand that maybe instawhirl or lift was too OP for sins or shadows, but how can that be taken from madness and balance sages/sorcs? WHILE a stronger class still has theirs and its not even talented? EDIT: AND its aoe! while lift is not. This is my question. I just want this logic explained cuz Im not aware of logic working in this way. I have, a sin and a GS and a sage and an Op. Give back lift/whirl. Edited March 27, 2013 by Smuglebunny
JackNader Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 Because the only developer working on class balance plays a sniper.
NoTomorrow Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Different classes are different. Your stun is 10m range, our stun is 4m. Your force speed allows you to maneuver, our leap is a jump to a specific point. Sorcerer can cleanse warrior mezz, operative can cleanse imperial agent mezz. Stop comparring appels and orranges. Or should I also question you why does deception have a 4s mezz on 15s CD? Because the only developer working on class balance plays a sniper. I've yet to see a quality post from you on this forum. If I'll add you to ignore, nothing of value will be lost. Edited March 27, 2013 by NoTomorrow
Helig Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Operative FB is 10-meter range, and I don't see issues with it (aside the fact that Warrior mez is BPAoE and lasts only 6 seconds). However, full-range 8-second AoE mez *is* tad strong, I'll give you that. I do believe that it should be 10 meters class baseline. Edited March 27, 2013 by Helig
NoTomorrow Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 Operative FB is 10-meter range, and I don't see issues with it (aside the fact that Warrior mez is BPAoE and lasts only 6 seconds). However, full-range 8-second AoE mez *is* tad strong, I'll give you that. I do believe that it should be 10 meters class baseline. The developers stated themselves that snipers are supposed to have a 30m ranged CC as it goes in line with the class design concept. Working as intended.
cycao Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 Totally sucks I know that I will sure miss it as a madness sin but I am replacing utility (instant WW) with utility (phase walk) so at the moment i think it sucks but once I get used to phase walk I probably will be in the same place I am right now. Also lol to the notomorrow almost complaining about low slash.
Cretinus Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 Stop comparring appels and orranges. Or should I also question you why does deception have a 4s mezz on 15s CD? Yeah. Stop comparing apppels and orrranges! Or should he ask you why deception has a 4 sec mezz on a 15 sec CD? Hmmmmm? Well? Is that what you want? Should he ask you that? Should he? No? Then stop comparing apppels and orrranges! Else he will ask you.
Technohic Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 I find it incredibly stupid to remove instant whirlwind. I even play mainly a sniper and a gunslinger I have been working on and still find it stupid along with the fact that sniper seems to remain the only viable ranged class and the gap seems to grow from it to sorce to merc.
LarryRow Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 Also lol to the notomorrow almost complaining about low slash. All you have to do is mention anything sniper related to get NoTomorrow to show up and defend his class. Fortunately, most of us see it for the self-serving rubbish that it is.
Helig Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) The developers stated themselves that snipers are supposed to have a 30m ranged CC as it goes in line with the class design concept. Working as intended. Dunno, I just find area denial far too easy as Sniper/GS. I already slaughter people much faster than I do on my Sorc and Commando, with even greater impunity. 30-meter ranged CC doesn't need to be AoE. Edited March 27, 2013 by Helig
Glower Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 I already miss my one-target insta-WW... WHY... why you remove it, bioware?
MusicRider Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Yes the nerf to instant FL/WW was completely unjustified, the contrary it should be instant by default. If that would create imbalance with some of the trees of shadows then it could be a passive ability to sages (or extra trainable ability level) and remain as a skill in the shadows balance tree. About flashbang it is by far the best mezz in the game, it should either be 30m single target or 4m aoe, with the latter being better for snipers as it remains a perfect anti-gang defence, but not both. Edited March 27, 2013 by MusicRider
Glower Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 The developers stated themselves that snipers are supposed to have a 30m ranged CC as it goes in line with the class design concept. Working as intended. Elite Sniper defender achievement - unlocked!
WaywardOne Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 I wish all of the mezz abilities other than the stealther's saps would be pve only. There's way too much (aoe) cc in pvp atm.
UltimateKrucible Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 What? where does it say its being removed?
cycao Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 What? where does it say its being removed? Not seen the 2.0 patch notes because its there.
ArchangelLBC Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Not seen the 2.0 patch notes because its there. Actually I don't think it is since the PTS notes never detailed skill tree changes. Nevertheless it is indeed gone. The talent which made it instant will not reduce it's cast time but not all the way, which is definitely a mistake imo. If they wanted to put it out of the reach of hybrids all they had to do was move it higher. As for flashbang, I think the honest answer is that devs just don't always, or even often, think of such huge disparities. In PVE it could be considered balanced vs the casted mez of sages and commandos because sage and commando CC lasts for 60 seconds. In PVP this is not the case obviously, and I don't think the devs appreciate what a huge difference in utility that gives flashbang vs the other two, and that's before you consider that flashbang is AoE. Why would I believe this? Well look at the changes coming in 2.0 which make grav round give its full armor debuff in one cast and the armor debuff lasts 45 seconds. This brings it in line with sniper/gunslinger armor debuff, and this after Penny spammed the tooltips for both abilities. What I mean is the devs kind of designed a lot of this stuff awhile ago, certainly before the full impact of different abilities could be appreciated, and they've been so busy since (because AP apparently does everything himself as far as implementation goes) that they haven't gone back and addressed some of these big disparities. Edited March 27, 2013 by ArchangelLBC
itsmymillertime Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) They nerfed the instant WW because 23/1/17 hybrid was so OP. You could stealth mindmaze an opponent, and start capping a node and if the player broke the mindmaze, he would be instantly WW and the player could not prevent the cap. No class should have 2 instant 8 second cc that does not fill resolve. It was called the zap cap spec, and for good reason. Edited March 27, 2013 by itsmymillertime
cycao Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 They nerfed the instant WW because 23/1/17 hybrid was so OP. You could stealth mindmaze an opponent, and start capping a node and if the player broke the mindmaze, he would be instantly WW and the player could not prevent the cap. No class should have 2 instant 8 second cc that does not fill resolve. It was called the zap cap spec, and for good reason. What about scoundrels with sleep dart + flash bang? I only took nodes like this against clueless players who were within melee range when guarding a node and when you do that you are asking to get capped on.
UltimateKrucible Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 They nerfed the instant WW because 23/1/17 hybrid was so OP. You could stealth mindmaze an opponent, and start capping a node and if the player broke the mindmaze, he would be instantly WW and the player could not prevent the cap. No class should have 2 instant 8 second cc that does not fill resolve. It was called the zap cap spec, and for good reason. That makes sense - although its only ever a viable tactic on EHG, as all the other WZ nodes have 8 second+ cap times. But it only makes sense in the context of an "OMG nerf this!" reaction from the PvP devs rather than a reasoned response.
Glower Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 They nerfed the instant WW because 23/1/17 hybrid was so OP. You could stealth mindmaze an opponent, and start capping a node and if the player broke the mindmaze, he would be instantly WW and the player could not prevent the cap. No class should have 2 instant 8 second cc that does not fill resolve. It was called the zap cap spec, and for good reason. LOL! But sorcs insta-WW nerfed too, no one cares about sorcs? Or just move insta-WW little higher in skill tree?
Marisblood Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 Different classes are different. Your stun is 10m range, our stun is 4m. Your force speed allows you to maneuver, our leap is a jump to a specific point. Sorcerer can cleanse warrior mezz, operative can cleanse imperial agent mezz. Stop comparring appels and orranges. Or should I also question you why does deception have a 4s mezz on 15s CD? I've yet to see a quality post from you on this forum. If I'll add you to ignore, nothing of value will be lost. Flash bang is non talented CC but whirlwind, lift is a talented CC, so learn to read carefully first of all. Stop comparing other talents like force speed (op get a more strong movement speed then any other class in 2.0 yet sins do not have an instant/talented CC). So who is geting a buff always and who is nerfed all time? Sins need a dam buff in their dps trees like all classes have. Why so much hate for a broken dps class allrdy?
JackNader Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=615188&highlight=pts+closing&page=2 Read the very first sentence of Peckenpaugh's post. Also if you actually scroll down and read the upcoming Merc changes he's listed it is pretty clear the guy is flat out ignoring all the hundreds upon hundreds of threads on the changes needed to make Merc playable. Edited March 27, 2013 by JackNader
JackNader Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) All you have to do is mention anything sniper related to get NoTomorrow to show up and defend his class. Fortunately, most of us see it for the self-serving rubbish that it is. I know right. Some of us actually want to balance this game. If warzones fill up with 4 - 5 snipers he'll still be in here claiming snipers are working as intended and L2P. The guy also has only played a fraction of the classes in this game. He has absolutely no idea what it's like playing from the perspective of other classes. Edited March 27, 2013 by JackNader
foxmob Posted March 27, 2013 Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) The developers stated themselves that snipers are supposed to have a 30m ranged CC as it goes in line with the class design concept. Working as intended. how the *bleep* is that any different from any other ranged class? why was commando cryo grenade nerfed to 10m? irrc, the sage stun/mezz was ranged nerfed as well. what in the hell makes snipers so damn special? I'm not really objecting to your ranged mezz, but this is too apples to apples (albeit granny smith vs red delicous), but W-T-F? there's something seriously amiss here. edit: every ranged class (perhaps aside from madness), is designed to cast from range. cast. channel. ONLY the sniper has remotely effective tools to do this. every other ranged class has to work twice as hard to pull off 2/3rds the dmg. Edited March 27, 2013 by foxmob
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