Consular tanking... O.o does it really work?

[Beastfury]

Actually kinetic ward is pretty bad at early levels i barely bother with it. Without high shielding you adding 15% chance of 20% damage reduction. That is 3% damage reduction, if you have zero shield chance which you don't in which case it goes up a bit to MAYBE 4%. That is hardly game breaking at this level.

[Inarai]

Actually kinetic ward is pretty bad at early levels i barely bother with it. Without high shielding you adding 15% chance of 20% damage reduction. That is 3% damage reduction, if you have zero shield chance which you don't in which case it goes up a bit to MAYBE 4%. That is hardly game breaking at this level.

 

Kinetic Ward is too cheap not to use. It doesn't even have a real cost anymore when you get One With The Force 3 - you gain more in the GCD than the ability costs. Even if the benefit is minor at first, there is literally no reason not the maintain it if for no other reason than to get into the habit of doing so - and sometimes even a tiny sliver of health can make all the difference.

[Skulltap]

I've been tanking only a few things while focusing on leveling, but threat has only been an issue when dps is on the wrong target.

 

As far as the spec is concerned, there are a couple tier 1 and tier 2 talents in the Balance tree that are very complimentary for tanking. The most obvious being Jedi Resistance, offering 2% damage reduction. While it's not a lot, it's better than nothing since our armor deficit will always be there when compared with other tanks.

 

One of the biggest things that will change the tanking experience is resource management. A solid rotation or priority isn't concrete at this point so saving anywhere is paramount to success. For this there are two "must have" talents. One With the Force in the KC tree and Psychokinesis in the Balance tree.

 

Psychokinesis reduces the cost of two of our most used abilities, making it extremely helpful in every way.

 

As far as target priority, has anyone seen or established a target icon priority that is intended to be used worldwide to establish a kill order?

[Inarai]

As far as the spec is concerned, there are a couple tier 1 and tier 2 talents in the Balance tree that are very complimentary for tanking. The most obvious being Jedi Resistance, offering 2% damage reduction. While it's not a lot, it's better than nothing since our armor deficit will always be there when compared with other tanks.

 

http://db.darthhater.com/items/39108/rakata_survivors_robe/

 

Rakata Survivor's Robe

Bind On Pickup

Chest

456 Armor (Rating 140)

Durability: 80/80

Total Stats:

+88 Willpower

+143 Endurance

+49 Defense

+51 Accuracy Rating

 

http://db.darthhater.com/items/27620/rakata_war_leaders_body_armor/

 

Rakata War Leader's Body Armor

Bind On Pickup

Chest

861 Armor (Rating 140)

Durability: 120/120

Total Stats:

+99 Strength

+124 Endurance

+57 Defense

+51 Critical Chance

 

http://db.darthhater.com/items/39348/rakata_supercommandos_body_armor/

 

Rakata Supercommando's Body Armor

Bind On Pickup

Chest

861 Armor (Rating 140)

Durability: 120/120

Total Stats:

+132 Endurance

+112 Aim

+31 Defense

+51 Accuracy Rating

 

 

 

http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/1130/combat_technique/

 

Combat Technique

Instant

Assumes a combat technique, giving your attacks a 50% chance to deal 34 internal damage and heal you for 47. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Increases your armor rating by 150%, shield chance by 15% and threat generation by 50%. While active, melee bonus damage is reduced by 5%. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber. Does not break Stealth.

 

 

Thus: 456*2.5 = 1140. Or, if it means the rating of 140, that's 140*2.5*~3.26 = ~1141.

 

So... What armour deficiency?

[PaintOnASign]

Please don't open with Shadow Strike. That is the WORST way to eat up half your Force.

 

CC aside, I open with Force Breach (its AoE and you start your first debuff), then I start fishing for Particle Acceleration proccs, which means, spam that Double Strike. If you're tanking multiple targets, tab target those DS's. Once you get a PA procc, use Project on the main kill target.

 

This becomes easier once you get Whirling Blow, as you get PA proccs a lot more frequently. This is also assuming you keep up Kinetic Ward 100% of the time. Whoever said its not worth it, is a fool. Any kind of help is, ultimately, helping. It is pretty much free, and it doesn't respect the GCD. Shielding is going to be very important for us, as we're naturally better at it.

 

Anyway, yes, Shadow tanking works. But it is squishier at low levels than say, a Guardian or a Vanguard. Not impossible to play though, by any means.

Edited December 22, 2011 by PaintOnASign

[CrookedRain]

My shadow is now level 31 and I love tanking. Though I often meet players who won't believe a shadow can tank, they think we are purely a damage class. Player versus player is great too. Though I had some problems with AoE tanking since many players won't focus fire my target and demand that I tank better ...

 

On a sidenote: I totally hate Theran or what our second companion is called. Dialog options don't always show that my consular is going to say something about force philosophy and he seems to have pretty broken ethics.

[BauxJangles]

I have a question about shadow tanking. For me i have never been a tank but i am trying to decide if i would like to tank. This will be a very noob question and might sound dumb. My question is when i am pulling a group of enemies how do i keep aggro on them do i need to switch targets a lot and use different attacks on them or do i use AOE to keep the enemies on me? Also should i ever be using my auto attack on groups or single targets? Thank you if you answer this i know it may be dumb but like i said i never tanked before.

[coruscantnights]

I have a question about shadow tanking. For me i have never been a tank but i am trying to decide if i would like to tank. This will be a very noob question and might sound dumb. My question is when i am pulling a group of enemies how do i keep aggro on them do i need to switch targets a lot and use different attacks on them or do i use AOE to keep the enemies on me? Also should i ever be using my auto attack on groups or single targets? Thank you if you answer this i know it may be dumb but like i said i never tanked before.

 

You have taunts (special abilities) to keep targets on you. If you go full Kinetic Combat (the tank tree), you get a very good AoE taunt.

[choboon]

Hopefully you're specced into Kinetic combat and at level 30 your talents should look something like this.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601bIbckbco.1

QUOTE]

 

Why rapid recovery and not elusiveness ?

What combat techniques are in question here ?

I am also levelling a Kinetic build and cant figure out all skills yet. (just lvl 10 o0)

[BauxJangles]

I was told that jedi shadow when tanking is only good used as an off tank is that actually true?

[Skulltap]

http://db.darthhater.com/items/39108/rakata_survivors_robe/

 

Rakata Survivor's Robe

Bind On Pickup

Chest

456 Armor (Rating 140)

Durability: 80/80

Total Stats:

+88 Willpower

+143 Endurance

+49 Defense

+51 Accuracy Rating

 

http://db.darthhater.com/items/27620/rakata_war_leaders_body_armor/

 

Rakata War Leader's Body Armor

Bind On Pickup

Chest

861 Armor (Rating 140)

Durability: 120/120

Total Stats:

+99 Strength

+124 Endurance

+57 Defense

+51 Critical Chance

 

http://db.darthhater.com/items/39348/rakata_supercommandos_body_armor/

 

Rakata Supercommando's Body Armor

Bind On Pickup

Chest

861 Armor (Rating 140)

Durability: 120/120

Total Stats:

+132 Endurance

+112 Aim

+31 Defense

+51 Accuracy Rating

 

 

 

http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/1130/combat_technique/

 

Combat Technique

Instant

Assumes a combat technique, giving your attacks a 50% chance to deal 34 internal damage and heal you for 47. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Increases your armor rating by 150%, shield chance by 15% and threat generation by 50%. While active, melee bonus damage is reduced by 5%. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber. Does not break Stealth.

 

 

Thus: 456*2.5 = 1140. Or, if it means the rating of 140, that's 140*2.5*~3.26 = ~1141.

 

So... What armour deficiency?

 

So what you forgot to figure in was that those other two tanks have abilities like Combat Technique that they use. Vanguards use Ion Cell, boosting armor by 60%. So... 861*1.6=1377.6. That deficit. The Jedi Guardian uses Soresu Form, which is also a 60% increase to armor. Again we get 1377.6.

 

This means that talents are necessary for us to get up close to the straight mitigation that Heavy Armor wearing classes can access.

[Kitru]

This means that talents are necessary for us to get up close to the straight mitigation that Heavy Armor wearing classes can access.

 

You're forgetting that Shadows get an additional 5% defense, which makes up for the lack of armor.

[Skulltap]

Defense rating isn't mitigation though, since it comes out as deflected or glanced damage that never gets directly mitigated before the rating does what it does. So, while you're right that we get the bonus Defense, the effect that the armor has on the incoming damage is still less for us. Edited December 23, 2011 by Skulltap

[Kitru]

Defense rating isn't mitigation though, since it comes out as deflected or glanced damage that never gets directly mitigated before the rating does what it does. So, while you're right that we get the bonus Defense, the effect that the armor has on the incoming damage is still less for us.

 

Yes, we get less effect from the armor in question, but that's because we get 5% more avoidance than the other tanks. We may have less armor, but that lower armor is acting upon a smaller amount of incoming damage, which balances it out.

 

For simplicities sake, let's assume we take 1000 damage over the course of a fight. We will have 30% mitigation from armor and 30% mitigation from defense. The other tanks will have 35% and 25%, respectively. The Shadow tank will only be hit by 700 points of damage and use armor to mitigate that value down to 490. The other tanks will only be hit by 750 points of damage and mitigate that down to 487.5. Combined with the native healing that Shadows get that neither of the other tanks get, that's pretty balanced as I see it.

 

(Yes, I realize this is ignoring shield chance, but that's because it's just a simplified demonstration to show that the loss of armor in exchange for additional dodge chance isn't actually that bad).

[GFWarper]

My question is when i am pulling a group of enemies how do i keep aggro on them do i need to switch targets a lot and use different attacks on them or do i use AOE to keep the enemies on me?

It depends on your group/playstyle. If your party follows your marks (don't you have targeting device yet? buy it in social shop now!), you just keep using Force Breach on cooldown and rarely taunt/hit side targets.

If your party uses AOE, you either switch targets all the time or heavily use AOE strikes like Whirling Strike or Force in Balance. For silver mobs a pair of AOE stikes over Force Breach is enough for 30-.

If you are in worst pug situation where everyone hits his/her own target... well, you are screwed and it's intended to be so

 

There's nothing wrong in switching targets as tank, but this way you hinder groupmates assist option - they can't just select you and press Alt+T to aquire right target.

 

Also should i ever be using my auto attack on groups or single targets?

If you run out of force power, yes. There is nothing wrong in saber strike, hitting like this you regenerate through combat technique and deal some additional gamage.

[Elyx]

Most of this is for baux, who was concerned about AoE threat.

 

well, My newb tank is only 20 so far. I love the shadow playstyle though! also have plenty of experience in tanking other MMO's, some for many years.

 

I've also tanked every FP up to hammer effectively. early ones were in balance spec, but I figure ill be respeccing to kinetic once i get closer to 30 and the runs get tougher to manage without kinetic specific talents.

 

It helps out a ton early on to get used to target switching, as stated above. hit mob A with Double strike. throw project at Mob B, hit mob A again, chuck rocks at mob C, etc. use of force breach liberally (if CC isn't nearby). throw stun on a mob to reduce the incoming damage. learn how to line up opponents so you knock them back in a line when you use wave.

 

I've had little issues at these levels with holding aggro (much easier on my SC then on my guard), even in AoE situations...unless DD are focus firing on an off target. chose ranged to CC, and pull back melee into packs. be aware...this is one of the biggest issues. know when that range attacker breaks CC, and be prepared to throw a ranged attack at him to hold aggro long enough for dps to re-CC. be aware when a mob focus fires the healer. the healer may be able to handle it, but that's a few extra seconds that they aren't healing YOU. I'd rather yank aggro and have a few extra seconds of the mob running back to me and give the healer a few extra seconds to heal themselves, or me.

 

I think the practice of getting used to cycling targets with your attacks is one of the biggest. AoE's are nice, but in a game where AoE's break CC (no WoW EZ mode here), it's better to select the targets you want to hit and smack em a few times with your beat stick. if CC is far enough away, you can use force breach. wave can be temperamental...if you just spam it, you usually end up knocking mobs in all directions. practice lining it up so you can knock the melee back into the ranged attackers, as an example, or vice versa. circle the mobs so you have them pinned between you and a wall before using it. they'll blow back into the wall, and the extra few seconds it takes them to get up save you health and the healer power.

 

if its a heavy fight, or you know your healer is weak out of the gate, use your medpacks early on...the sooner you pop one, the sooner it goes off CD so you can use it again. one medpack can easily be 1/3 to 1/2 of your health bar, which can save the healer a ton of power use over a longer fight.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Elyx

[Skulltap]

Yes, we get less effect from the armor in question, but that's because we get 5% more avoidance than the other tanks. We may have less armor, but that lower armor is acting upon a smaller amount of incoming damage, which balances it out.

 

For simplicities sake, let's assume we take 1000 damage over the course of a fight. We will have 30% mitigation from armor and 30% mitigation from defense. The other tanks will have 35% and 25%, respectively. The Shadow tank will only be hit by 700 points of damage and use armor to mitigate that value down to 490. The other tanks will only be hit by 750 points of damage and mitigate that down to 487.5. Combined with the native healing that Shadows get that neither of the other tanks get, that's pretty balanced as I see it.

 

(Yes, I realize this is ignoring shield chance, but that's because it's just a simplified demonstration to show that the loss of armor in exchange for additional dodge chance isn't actually that bad).

 

I was agreeing with you, since my original post was about talents and class abilities being necessary for us to make up that ground. As you pointed out we get some healing through Combat Technique and then later on through Harnessed Shadows in the KC tree. Overall I think that all three tank classes are starting on level ground. Seeing how they stack up in Operations will point out drawbacks for each class. I think that no matter which tank you end up playing you're going to have to understand the class much more than in other MMOs that I've played in the past.

[Kylar_Steern]

Hi I have a question if I want to be a tank so I can go talent?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601Mc0MZGMrRkhrrtz.1

[Kitru]

Hi I have a question if I want to be a tank so I can go talent?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601Mc0MZGMrRkhrrtz.1

 

That's Infiltration (and not even a particularly good Infiltration spec). Infiltration is not a tank spec. It is a DPS spec. If you want to be a tank, you're going to need to go at least 20 or more points into Kinetic to pick up the important tanking talents, like Kinetic Ward, Shadowsight, Double-bladed Saber Defense, Impact Control and other talents that make you harder to kill.

[Kylar_Steern]

That's Infiltration (and not even a particularly good Infiltration spec). Infiltration is not a tank spec. It is a DPS spec. If you want to be a tank, you're going to need to go at least 20 or more points into Kinetic to pick up the important tanking talents, like Kinetic Ward, Shadowsight, Double-bladed Saber Defense, Impact Control and other talents that make you harder to kill.

 

hey thanks for the advice, and I can not suggest a solution? if you do not mind, thank you

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601bIrokrskbZhGbMk.1 ?

Edited December 24, 2011 by Kylar_Steern

[darkov]

This is the spec I'm heading for now after being taught a few lessons by the bosses in the Taral V flashpoint...

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601rIMskbskbZZf0cRM.1

 

The main thing I learned from it was that against large groups of mobs we will struggle more than a heavy armour wearing tank until we have all of our self-healing abilities/skills and this goes for tanking certain bosses in the game as well.

 

The simple problem is that Kinetic Ward either loses its charges too quickly or it doesn't lose them at all. And if you can't block the damage, for whatever reason, you are getting hit harder than a heavy armour wearing tank would get hit for. The self-healing mitigates this, but most of the good self-healing comes quite late for us, very late if you're looking at Slow Time or Battle Readiness.

 

I still wouldn't care to play a Vanguard or Guardian, but just be aware that our tanking relies a lot on chance, whether that is shield chance or heal chance, it is still something that is out of our control and in the odd fight here and there, the chance is going to be against you.

 

Of note though, our agro control is far superior to anything else out there

[SWB-NL]

hey thanks for the advice, and I can not suggest a solution? if you do not mind, thank you

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601bIrokrskbZhGbMk.1 ?

 

You end up spending a lot of talent points in talents which don't help you all that much. Lots of buffs to Shadow Strike , stealth play and burst potential. Might be nice for PvP, but for tanking it's utterly pointless since you won't get any tangible benefits from those talents after the first couple of seconds at best, if not at all. (tanking shadows do not use Shadow Strike since when tanking it's not possible to get behind the target consistently)

 

You'd be much better off taking Balance as a secondary spec, since the lower talents there actually offer nice benefits to add to your tanking talents in Kinetic Combat. (Jedi Resistance, Psychokinesis and Upheaval work well with the skills shadow tanks use.)

[Kitru]

hey thanks for the advice, and I can not suggest a solution? if you do not mind, thank you

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601bIrokrskbZhGbMk.1 ?

 

The Infiltration tree is largely worthless for Kinetic Shadows. A large number of those talents are devoted to making Shadow Strike better and Kinetic Shadows don't use Shadow Strike ever because, as tanks, the enemies should never have their backs to you. Infiltration Tactics is terrible for tanks. All that you're really getting from that spec is cheaper Project (something quite nice, though it doesn't mix as well as you might think with Particle Acceleration since PA only has a 50% chance of activating) and a bit of extra Force from Blackout with Masked Assault. In exchange, you're losing a *lot* of threat generation and mitigation in the form of Slow Time, Force Synergy (every PA Project guarantees it), Jedi Resistance, and Upheaval (Project is our best damage and threat power; make it better is always good).

 

Also, Vigor is a completely worthless talent for any spec. The additional 10 Force you start a fight off with offers no real benefit because, as any spec of Shadow, you should never be at max Force except at the beginning of a fight. The extra 10 Force doesn't even increase your alpha abilities considerably because the most effective attacks you get as a Infiltration have remarkably low costs thanks to the impressive cost reductions available to them.

 

This is the best tank spec for Shadows at the moment. It levels incredibly well too because it gets to the most important talents the fastest and then just fills in the rest with the useful stuff from Balance. Something to remember is that Mental Fortitude is next to worthless: at level 50, it amounts to about 450 additional health, which isn't going to be appreciably useful unless you regularly plan on being taken down to about 2% health with regularity. Applied Force for additional damage, and therefore threat, with your primary ST and AoE melee attacks is way more important: that 6% adds up quickly.

[Skulltap]

Skipping Slow Time isn't going to work out for end game tanking, though it's probably acceptable for flashpoints and such. Once you get into operations your dps will, or at least should be, doing a huge amount of damage. This damage is going to generate a lot of threat. While Guard will help with the worst offender in this scenario you can't rely too heavily on it. You have to be able to generate a lot of threat, and that's one of the nice benefits of Slow Time. The other being that you're not getting hit as hard once the debuff from Slow Time is applied.

[SWB-NL]

That was actually something I was wondering about earlier today looking at the talent trees. Purely from a DPS point of view, Force in Balance seems quite nice as it does more damage than Slow Time and is slightly cheaper in terms of force, and also provides a fairly small heal. On the other hand Slow Time gives the debuff, affects more targets and has a lower cooldown from what I can see. (And I'd guess in high end operations the debuff is going to be the dealbreaker in itself) It's also cheaper in terms of talent investment (1 vs 3 points), though to get to 31 points you end up with a couple of highly optional talent points spent in Kinetic Combat.

 

Either way, I ended up wondering which ability will actually provide more threat per target per use. Force in Balance obviously has the higher damage, but Slow Time according to the tooltip provides high threat. Anybody got any idea about the threat multiplier on it? (Assuming it's going to be a multiplier anyways and not a static threat bonus, given how many scaling issues that gave in other MMOs)