Sith and Dark Side

[Arandariel]

Being halfway through the game, I noticed that Sith are so... nice.

For instance in their replies to some, Sith are too polite in many a case, and hell, they SOUND like Jedi.

 

Don't get me wrong, please, I have played oh so many a role-play, even VtM LARP, and evil does not sound like the Sith do in SWTOR.

If you have seen the movies, Vader nor Maul sound like Jedi.

Siddious, as another example, does not sound like a Jedi.

And for SURE they do not act so soft.

 

I imagine, based on the movies, a Sith as being the ultimate evil in the Galaxy, only serving his OWN purpose.

Even if he is under a master, he will only obey if he alone will make something out of it.

He is the uber-selfish being, hungering for power, hungering for destruction, hungering for total domination.

And if he sees a possibility, he WILL betray anyone, if that is in his favor.

 

If you see the Sith past, an apprentice ALWAYS will go against his master in the end, craving for the Master's position.

 

And I simply do not see it here.

Well, the elimination of Vermin I think his name was, was somewhat in the right direction, still.

 

I'd like to see a real evil being, rather than a simple crook, as Sith...

 

Ideas, comments, do post them.

But please be polite, refrain from flaming and insults.

 

Thank you.

[theUndead]

It is an interesting concept when talking about the Sith. See evil as well as good is very subjective and even more so in SW. See in the lore there is very grey area between what is truly "good" and "evil". One could argue that both the Empire and the Republic have both traits and this game in my view does a very good job of portraying it.

 

See evil as well as the dark side are and pardon the cliche just a point of view. What the Sith strive for is the continuation of their people now while it is true that the Empire is a harsher government one can not say with our a doubt that the empire is any less evil than the Republic.

 

Going further on the dark side one can argue that it is fact a more liberating way of life than the light side. For example the dark side teaches one to embrace their emotions such as passion, anger, sadness all the things that make us human. Then on reverse you have the light side where one is taught to be pure level headed. Both of these life styles as presented in SW have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Now if we anylise the Sith yes they are to many accounts the traditional evil doer who wields lightening and excutes anyone but as we can see te game shows one can still be mighty and be light sided casing point is a light sided Sith story which shows that rather than execute anyone you would rather see them alive to help the empire. The Jedi they both share equal amounts of good and evil. As I mentioned the dark side teaches to embrace emotion for stength and power within the force but you are aloud to love to feel passion you are unrestricted. Now on the reverse you have Jedi who teach detachment and purity for strength in the force.

 

So why did I tell you all of this? It is because there is no true evil in SW. Both factions kill huge amounts of people both Sith and Jedi have choices to either excute people or let them go. So although I undetstand your need for a true evil doer from a RP perspective but sadly the comeplexity of the stories does not allow it.

[Arandariel]

First off: I have a real problem with "Light Side Sith".

Because it is possible in game, does not mean that Lucas saw it in that regard.

Just consider the millions of Jedi turning to the Dark side, and the handful leaving the Dark Path.

Yes, a Sith should be able to chose light, but he should have to work for that, and bloody hard too!!!

Each Light Side point gained for a Sith should be divided by a million.

That would make it realistic to the galaxy of Lucas.

 

Furthermore, as I said before, which is proven: every Sith has killed it's master, or the master the apprentice if he was too weak.

 

Remember the Sith Wars.

Which were the very reason to the rule: There shall be only 2: a Master and his Apprentice.

 

Sith are per definition egoistic, and power-hungry, and yes, EVIL.

There's not a single one that is not (and I do not speak of the blasphemous "Light Side creeps" since these are an abomination in the SW-galaxy, see my first part of this post).

Think of Siddious, blowing up a planet just for the heck of it.

Because he COULD.

Not very Light Side, is it.

 

Harvest your anger, love your hate.

How good can that be?

 

Have you ever, btw, played the SW Role-play?

I have.

And no, Sith are in there not nice either.

 

Fear is my ally... yeah, how fearful is a do-gooder?

 

Now, disregarding this:

I did not say that a Sith should loose the things he has now, keep the possibility for light side even, but ADD a more dark path for him.

Make a Sith more like Maul, a LOT less like Luke Skyfaller.

Give at least the option to play the Dark Side as it was meant to be: the most creepy, evil side there is: The Devil Incarnated!

[Lordmird]

Sith are bad.

[Spartanik]

What the Sith strive for is the continuation of their people

The people in the empire? yes. The sith ? hell no Its not much of a continuation of their people, but more wanting the darkside to be the ruling force in galaxy and not the light side.

You see this conflict begun long ago since the time of the force wars and the exile of the dark jedi, that later on went and discovered the sith race and branded themselfs lords of the sith.

 

The whole empire vs republic is more like a symthom of this conflict.

[Arandariel]

The people in the empire? yes. The sith ? hell no Its not much of a continuation of their people

Then please do elaborate the destruction of many a Sith empires?

Rakata for one?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rakata

 

Even in SWTOR the Sith thrive on things like destruction, manipulation, betrayal.

Or is SWTOR in that regard ALSO a lie?

 

If I am wrong, then do explain why the rule "There shall only be two"?

Where does it come from?

Where did that start?

What was the reason beyond this rule?

To make an empire?

To maintain that empire?

To make sure the galaxy would be bathed in the Dark Side???

 

I truly suggest you read up on the SW lore...

And read it as is, do not make your opinion on it, for peace is a lie...

That sentence alone says everything.

Sith strife for just that: conflict.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Arandariel

[SithKoriandr]

It is an interesting concept when talking about the Sith. See evil as well as good is very subjective and even more so in SW. See in the lore there is very grey area between what is truly "good" and "evil". One could argue that both the Empire and the Republic have both traits and this game in my view does a very good job of portraying it.

 

See evil as well as the dark side are and pardon the cliche just a point of view. What the Sith strive for is the continuation of their people now while it is true that the Empire is a harsher government one can not say with our a doubt that the empire is any less evil than the Republic.

 

Going further on the dark side one can argue that it is fact a more liberating way of life than the light side. For example the dark side teaches one to embrace their emotions such as passion, anger, sadness all the things that make us human. Then on reverse you have the light side where one is taught to be pure level headed. Both of these life styles as presented in SW have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Now if we anylise the Sith yes they are to many accounts the traditional evil doer who wields lightening and excutes anyone but as we can see te game shows one can still be mighty and be light sided casing point is a light sided Sith story which shows that rather than execute anyone you would rather see them alive to help the empire. The Jedi they both share equal amounts of good and evil. As I mentioned the dark side teaches to embrace emotion for stength and power within the force but you are aloud to love to feel passion you are unrestricted. Now on the reverse you have Jedi who teach detachment and purity for strength in the force.

 

So why did I tell you all of this? It is because there is no true evil in SW. Both factions kill huge amounts of people both Sith and Jedi have choices to either excute people or let them go. So although I undetstand your need for a true evil doer from a RP perspective but sadly the comeplexity of the stories does not allow it.

 

Actually, I'd say in SW good and evil are pretty straight forward. Even in RL, good and evil is generally pretty straight forward.

[Arandariel]

Indeed.

Think Ceaușescu, modern day War- and crime lords, for evil.

And think of Mother Theresa, many a monk/sister for good, just to name examples.

 

Or can you say that for example Escobar (the dead drug lord) was an impersonation of good?

Or for that matter, if Mother Theresa was the impersonation of evil?

 

Name ONE Sith that did good.

Just one...

 

Another thing:

Back in the seventies, movies were always about good vs evil.

Think of Star Trek movies, Superman, the Four Fist series (Bud Spencer/Terence Hill), westerns, you name it.

And SW is in that regard absolutely no difference.

 

Over the later period (2000 appx.) the SW galaxy has been corrupted by fools that took SW 'to a next stage', losing the basics.

Fools that made Sith into a more noble thing, and Jedi into a more evil thing, coloring things in shades where it was originally white vs black.

I've read a few 'non-cannon books' as well, and ALL did just that, making up a story entirely not correct to what George Lucas has thought us.

In one, the Force were 2 seperate streams: the Dark Side Stream and the Light Side Stream, despite in part four Yoda said: "There is only the Force", thus only ONE stream.

 

I tend extremely to the original, by GL created SW, the one where the RP books are based upon, and tend to ignore and despice the added stuff fan books, since no, they are incomplete, and sometimes even dead simply wrong.

 

In any case, Anakin slew the Younglings, I ask you: is that the act of a noble being?

And this is how I see my own Sith: Evil incarnated.

But the game made him a wuss...

 

I just like the option to become a Sith as a Sith was intended, and live a virtual live of Hell on Coruscant.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Arandariel

[Durhon]

Revan.

[Arandariel]

Revan was no Sith.

I said: a Sith.

 

Revan was a Jedi turned Sith, then back to Jedi.

 

Again, do know what you write, please....

[Timarick]

Indeed.

Think Ceaușescu, modern day War- and crime lords, for evil.

And think of Mother Theresa, many a monk/sister for good, just to name examples.

 

Or can you say that for example Escobar (the dead drug lord) was an impersonation of good?

Or for that matter, if Mother Theresa was the impersonation of evil?

 

Name ONE Sith that did good.

Just one...

 

 

I do see your point, but I can see his too. Palpatine DID take the power for himself, but, to quote Lucas, "He made the trains run on time," so he was, as Hitler was (and we KNOW how evil he was) "using democracy to destroy democracy," and a lot of people forget, Hitler did great things for his people, until his madness and bigotry got the best of him and he desired power as all dictators do: He got Germany out of the depression by 1931, restored Germany's national pride, heck even held the Olympics in his country during a time when such an idea was questioned in the Great Depression.

 

Yes we know he still went on to do evil things, but like Palpatine, there's a whole other aspect to it. So while he is evil incarnate, one cannot merely say that there wasn't SOME good in his merits. Palpatine did rid the Empire of corruption by controlling all the pieces of said corruption that wasn't the Hutts or Black Sun (and even then he still had a good deal of influence with both)

 

Despite it being a dictatorship, the Empire (as shown in the EU) DID have a thriving economy and while human-centric, still had plenty of support in territories to the point where even though he died on Endor, it took nearly 20 years for the Empire to agree to peace with the New Republic, and even then they weren't entirely gone either.

 

Yes, the Sith are evil, selfish, and ultimately out for themselves first. But that doesn't say aspects of that could mean that their subjects could in some ways benefit. You can't be a king without a kingdom, even the Sith know this. So you have to give SOME things to them to allow them to function in society that is subserviant to you but still living and able to exist on its own. Which Palpatine did. Now naturally not every species or people benefitted or enjoyed and thus Civil War broke out, but nevertheless, it took an entire generation to go by before full out Civil War could break out, and another generation before it ended. Food for thought really.

[Arandariel]

True, I agree there.

Still, both Hitler as Siddious were evil, no?

The way both did things to get to a point, made them to be evil.

Hitler too burned children, gassed them, you name it.

These things we, as 'civilized beings', consider these to be the absolute evil, correct?

And that is my point: a Sith in SWTOR cannot do this.

OK: now, I do not want to go on a child-killing spree!!!

But my point is: the things that Anakin did to become Sith are not even remotely present in SWTOR.

Yes, there is some betrayal, yes, there is some killing, but it's not remotely close to the evil the Sith have done throughout the millenia.

 

I am a God-fearing man.

Indeed, I am Christian.

But in RP, I LOVE to be the absolute opposite.

Dunno why.

Heck, even as God-fearing Christian, I listen to Black/Death Metal and Punk.

Albeit I do love Classic and opera as well.

Even Fun's We Are Young or One Direction's One Way Or Another I like.

But I, as a God-fearing human, have a dark side as well...

And in games, this comes floating on the surface...

 

Maybe just a let-out of frustration, as I see the world crumbling down around me...

Anger needs a let-out, or it consumes a man...

 

If anyone feels insulted, I am sorry, I did not mean to be insulting, as stated, I am stuck in the seventies view of the SW galaxy, and the Sith History in general, as 42 year young role-player.

If you can creep out a GM to the point he leaves a session, well... then that was a successful session.

Because... Fear. Fear is my ally.

 

*grins*

[Timarick]

except a lot of people are angry teenagers in the game or disgruntled 40-somethings, 20-somethings, etc etc who feel they have been cheated and want to get back at the world but still be made out to be the good guys.

 

Notice how many of the Sith are fat and usually bald? It's BioWare's wink to its own audience. In character Sith are self-indulgent and blah blah blah, but the goal they went with is to "we're not "evil", we just want to be accepted for our own way of doing things"

 

I don't agree with it either, but sadly everyone hates each other and you have to be "civilized" in the RP world. I've seen a guy go in and be the Darth Maul kind of Sith and he got torn to shreds by a bunch of egotistocal, snarky, tards who say "dude, **** off. You're a tool." as if the traditional way of Sith was nothing.

 

I mean one guild for example, Harbingers of the Sith'ari, don't act like Sith at all, in fact ALL act like Jedi, some TURNED Jedi, yet use that name. It's a punchline!

[theUndead]

Actually, I'd say in SW good and evil are pretty straight forward. Even in RL, good and evil is generally pretty straight forward.

 

Not entirely true. Take for example the Grey Jedi Order. As far as I can remember they were a sect of Jedi knights who did not attune themselves to either side of the force. So I ask this in what way would you describe them?

[Timarick]

Not entirely true. Take for example the Grey Jedi Order. As far as I can remember they were a sect of Jedi knights who did not attune themselves to either side of the force. So I ask this in what way would you describe them?

 

That's a mis-conception, as there was no actual "Gray Jedi Order" at all in any of the lore. Some claimed to be "Gray Jedi" like Jolee Bindo, but at the end he adhered to the light and doing good even if he masqueraded it with "dark force powers". But there was no "Order" to speak of with its own Council or benficiares.

 

In fact, quoting from several sources such as The Jedi Path , and Jedi vs. Sith: the Essential Guide to the Force, Gray Jedi didn't follow the dark side, or even used Dark Side powers of any kind, just didn't agree with the Council on the approach to the light side. The Jedi Path describes them as "Mavericks that can be difficult to control"

 

What you described later turned into the "Potentium" who believed that the Force was inherently good and that all Force talents led to that good. None of these people made it past Padawan and are considered distrusted and misguided.

 

There was also the Jennsarri and the Imperial Knights, who came later who followed simmilar ideals, but they too ultimately followed the Light Side in the very end to serve a greater good.

 

Sith and Dark Jedi are evil, to become corrupted by the power the Dark Side held for them and to crave it constantly instead of "using the Force as a tool that should not be taken lightly" as the rest of these groups did.

 

However Gray Jedi in definitive terms, are just Light Sided Jedi with an un-orthodox point of view on how the Jedi should work and don't associate themselves with the Council's view of thinking.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Timarick

[Doctoglethorpe]

Civility =/= mushiness. These are a different sith, its a civilization of them that must work together to maintain an Empire. They are courteous to each other out of the need of the greater whole, not just some personal softness. Many of them behind close doors are still vile and despise one another and stab each other in the back constantly, but society requires rule and structure, not chaos, so they play along, perhaps grudgingly. The Sith you compare them to are very different, they are the far more individualized sith of the Rule of Two era. Those Sith were free from social shackles to act completely on their own. Edited March 18, 2013 by Doctoglethorpe

[Timarick]

Civility =/= mushiness. These are a different sith, its a civilization of them that must work together to maintain an Empire. They are courteous to each other out of the need of the greater whole, not just some personal softness. Many of them behind close doors are still vile and despise one another and stab each other in the back constantly, but society requires rule and structure, not chaos, so they play along, perhaps grudgingly. The Sith you compare them to are very different, they are the far more individualized sith of the Rule of Two era. Those Sith were free from social shackles to act completely on their own.

 

Which is why there can really never be more than 2 Sith because of all this dilluting of power and having to co-exist and all that really does work against the selfish nature of the Sith. One to Master the power, and one to covet his position. Hence why Darth Bane killed them off except himself and then found Darth Zannah and continued down the line. Every time since they tried to break the Rule of Two, it never really worked, not even the Lost Tribe when they returned and it wasn't until Darth Krayt came up with the One Sith concept, did it work, but even then it backfired to an extent because there was STILL infighting and chaos within their own Order.

[jovianus]

If I am wrong, then do explain why the rule "There shall only be two"?

Where does it come from?

Where did that start?

What was the reason beyond this rule?

To make an empire?

To maintain that empire?

To make sure the galaxy would be bathed in the Dark Side???

.

 

IIRC the Rule of 2 was based on the idea that apprentices killing masters was a feature, not a bug.

 

Bane's issue was that with tons of Sith and apprentices running around, weaker apprentices were banding together or getting help from other Lords to overthrow their masters. So instead of one Sith Lord being thrown down and replaced by a more a powerful one, they were being replaced by weaker disciples.

 

The Rule of 2 was instituted with the explicit intention that one Sith Lord would take one apprentice, who would ultimately kill his Master and take his place, and the process would continue creating more and more powerful Sith Lords.

 

IIRC he considered killing his own apprentice several times out of disappointment that she continually passed up opportunities to kill him.

 

There's nothing that says Sith apprentices can't be perfectly obedient, but only because they're biding their time until they're powerful enough to kill their Master..

[Lunafox]

I don't see why evil can't or shouldn't be polite and refined. Just because one is darksided in their thinking doesn't mean they have to behave like a complete clod. In fact, there is a part of me, that thinks, that the truly evil are actually rather polite in how they say things. Some of the truly great villains in star wars and other story universes are well spoken.

[yoomazir]

I'm not sure what you guys mean with LS Sith being so goodies/polites, in Quesh, my LS juggernaut still, automatically, pushed the jedi in the acid pool with a snarky comment. Honestly I felt that many Sith LS answers where kinda evil...

 

But then, you have to think of them as people who were born, raised, educated & trained in that kind of evil environment, so what they think it's good is not necessarely what we think is good (ie killing or letting live a wounded animal, and for what reason).

Edited March 18, 2013 by yoomazir

[Lunafox]

I think it comes down to viewpoint...the Sith don't think they're evil. I've always believed that so called 'evil people' still are capable of having lives, families, of truly loving someone. It bothers me, when story writers make evil into two dimensional characters and fail to consider that they can love just as strongly or even moreso than supposed 'good folks'. The way I see it, evil is just a label that someone else puts on you. To a Sith, Jedi are evil...weak, hypocritical beings with zero passion. Someone once said that 'the victors write the histories' so, whoever the winning side is, would be the 'good guys', but thats not necessarily so, it just means they won, and people will likely get their side of the story.

[Timarick]

I think it comes down to viewpoint...the Sith don't think they're evil. I've always believed that so called 'evil people' still are capable of having lives, families, of truly loving someone. It bothers me, when story writers make evil into two dimensional characters and fail to consider that they can love just as strongly or even moreso than supposed 'good folks'. The way I see it, evil is just a label that someone else puts on you. To a Sith, Jedi are evil...weak, hypocritical beings with zero passion. Someone once said that 'the victors write the histories' so, whoever the winning side is, would be the 'good guys', but thats not necessarily so, it just means they won, and people will likely get their side of the story.

 

Except that, in Star Wars, Sith and the Dark Side is absolution. They deem love as weakness, and they wish to be strong. Loving means giving yourself to another person, which is a big no against the Sith code. Even the most spoken Sith are flat out liars and ******es. Star Wars may have grey to it now, but Sith is absolution. It has always been defined as such. Those who tried to change such truthes were killed and unfit to be Sith strong enough to defeat the Jedi.

 

Jedi may be hypocritical, but are more complex, diversify, and questioning by their own nature. Sith do not question anything, they crave power and stop at nothing to get it. This is absolution. Their mentality is very much "I am right, and you are all beneath me." even if they don't say it with their lightsaber.

 

So families are a laugh, that's a threat to their power unless it's a calculated plan to further your legacy. Love is a joke because the only love you think of is passion, and what is passion? Thinking with your naughty bits. Sith = OUT FOR THE SELF. ALWAYS. So you can't really have depth so much with that. You can play with how they go about it and ways to skew their logic, but unlike Jedi, Sith is absolute. Love is complicated, hate is simple. And what is the way of the Dark Side? Quick and Easy.

[Arandariel]

I do agree with you all, but I still miss the one truly absolutely evil Darth, that I want to RP out.

I miss Siddious blowing up a planet for fun, I miss Annakin slaying the most of innocent to turn Dark, I miss Naga Sadow turning an entire planet into a living nightmare, I miss... evil.

 

I do not ask to drop all the rest, but to add that one thing that made a Sith absulote: the fact that there is no limit.

That freedom is actually the purest of all evils, because it is freedom that allows this.

Freedom, indeed.

Personal freedom...

 

Again: if I flesh out a Sith in RP, then he will be the ultimate of all villains.

Why?

Freedom...

Because I can...

 

Addendum: The rule" There shall only be two, a Master who has the power, and the aprenice that craves this power."

That also states only one simple thing: conflict.

The only true thing a Sith thrives for...

Edited March 18, 2013 by Arandariel

[Timarick]

I do agree with you all, but I still miss the one truly absolutely evil Darth, that I want to RP out.

I miss Siddious blowing up a planet for fun, I miss Annakin slaying the most of innocent to turn Dark, I miss Naga Sadow turning an entire planet into a living nightmare, I miss... evil.

 

I do not ask to drop all the rest, but to add that one thing that made a Sith absulote: the fact that there is no limit.

That freedom is actually the purest of all evils, because it is freedom that allows this.

Freedom, indeed.

Personal freedom...

 

Again: if I flesh out a Sith in RP, then he will be the ultimate of all villains.

Why?

Freedom...

Because I can...

 

Well if you get to be that powerful and beef up the PVP stuff, do me a solid and shut down the Harbingers of the Sith'ari. They're all filthy borderline Jedi, and don't act at all on ANY of the things that make a Sith, well, a SITH. Sooner I can watch them burn, the better for me

[Arandariel]

Now THAT I like....