The most easy way to determine if the tank is a bad/dumb one

[JimmyTheCannon]

It will make no difference. Healer is not going to pull aggro by just healing from a tank or any dps on any enemy that has either been taunted or attacked, but anything that has not been attacked or taunted will run for the healer, it does not matter if you are if the healer is putting out 107 TPS , 80.25 TPS or 1 TPS.

 

I have pulled aggro from something a tank has taunted and/or attacked 3 times as a healer, all three times was with a extremely lower geared tank and all three times I was not healing but doing dps.

 

However, I stick with the tank should guard whomever they wish just they should understand that guarding the healer is just for the damage reduction benefit. Which can be a huge benefit for lower geared healers and dps has gold fever. If nothing else, if it gives the tank and healer any reassurance, then it is a benefit to the entire group.

 

I'll have us experiment on the next HM FP run I do with my guild on different trash groups, but my experience has been that, on trash groups that are spread out too much to be easily AOEed by the tank, it *can* make enough of a difference that the DPS are able to get the non-elite mobs down (or at least focused on them, in the case of the strongs) before they pull off onto the healer. When the healer isn't guarded, odds are at least one of those mobs *will* pull off if he's out of range of the tank's AOE.

 

I'll reiterate - with a good group, this shouldn't happen, regardless of who's guarded. The DPS will know their targeting priority, and will take into account the tank's range and hit the ones farther away from him first. But I have seen it happen.

[mikebevo]

It may seem to make a difference, but mechanic wise it makes none. Mechanic wise mobs that have not been attacked or that have not taunted, will attack whoever is generating threat. So the moment a healer throws out a heal on anything within range of the mobs, then the healer will generate a small about of threat to all mobs within, those that have not taunted or attacked will be after the healer. So even if you reduce that threat by 25% or 99.9%. .1 threat is still greater than 0 threat, so they are after the healer. The guard only reduces threat, it does not eliminate it.

 

I play with some very good and some very average players, not to mention plenty of PUGs, I understand how you there can be some frustration with pulls and it seeming like as a healer you are tanking 1/2 a instance. I lol when I see cunning gear drop with absorb or defense, but in a lot of instances it actually makes you think. I really feel like I pull double duty in HM TfB in the room with two cores, no matter how good the tanks are, when we are done I feel like me and the other healer just finished tanking 1/2 the adds. Not saying anything bad about the tanks, because I have done that many times with some tanks that I know that are beyond reproach and have always had the same result.

 

I will say again too. If you are comfortable with the guard and the tank is willing to give it to you, then take it. Personally I don't want it or need it. 5% damage reduction does nothing. I don't even care if the tank uses guard at all. In most HMFP my healer could and has gotten fresh 50's in green leveling gear through them without death or wipes (and that was when I was in Rakata gear). One of the reason I know it is almost impossible for a healer to pull from a tank or dps because I would have pulled there.

Edited March 20, 2013 by mikebevo

[chuixupu]

I don't care what people do in Flashpoints. When I've run as a healer, especially in lower level flashpoints, I find a lot of noobish people and tanks that don't hold aggro on many mobs all that well, so fine, guard the healer, they're the last person you want to die.

 

However, if you're in operations, I think the guard should most definitely be on the highest dps, because pulling threat in some situations causes a lot of problems (like Zorn running at dps and putting fearful on people, Stormcaller having some annoying threat based mechanics). Only exception to this is in cases where there is no threat table and a lot of unavoidable damage going out (i.e. Bonethrasher, first phase of Dreadguards HM). I'm not saying be an irresponsible dps and rely on guard - pop thread reduction (if you have them, not all do currently), and don't jump in and blow a whole lot right off the bat, but I really think it's better served there than the healer.

 

But to the OP, it's not the sign of a bad tank. I've noticed a lot of times healers just demand it, and for whatever reason, people in general seem to think it's what you're supposed to do, maybe more from warzone experience.

[Aurojiin]

I really feel like I pull double duty in HM TfB in the room with two cores, no matter how good the tanks are, when we are done I feel like me and the other healer just finished tanking 1/2 the adds. Not saying anything bad about the tanks, because I have done that many times with some tanks that I know that are beyond reproach and have always had the same result.

To be fair, you shouldn't literally be in the room. Have the tanks trigger the adds then come back and wait behind the entryway. Once they're all moving towards you the DPS go in and kill the two cores while the tanks just AOE the adds and the healers top them up. There should be no issues keeping aggro off the healers then.

[Punchy]

If the tank automatically puts the guard on the healer even though there are high end geared marauders/sentinels in the group in tier 1 HM FPs s/he is a bad tank. If the tank refuses to give the guard to the said marauder/sentinel even after politely explained there's no need to guard healers in tier 1 HMs and guarding the highest dps(usually mara/sent) makes the FP go faster and easier for everyone the tank is also a dumb one.

 

I can't even remember when I would have gotten the guard in a PuG HM FP group without asking it first even though I do Daily HMs in PuG almost daily basis. The tank that made me finally to put this little rant online was something pretty awful too: he was not able to use his 23,5k hp jugg tank to keep aggro off from a 19k hp merc healer in Black Talon HM even with the guard on the healer...

 

The first warning sign is the 23.5k hitpoint Jugg. That's far too many hitpoints.

 

Also, guarding a Sentinel/Marauder should happen if:

- There are two Sentinels in the group.

- The other DPS is very undergeared/won't pull threat anyways.

 

They're given the best aggro-dump in the game. Make them use it. Or, conversely, let them get initial aggro and taunt-boost off of them. There are a few fights where guarding a Sentinel is actually preferable (only one I can think off based purely on experience is NiM Firebrand/Stormcaller where the Sentinel that sits Stormcaller can pull aggro during DD and wipe a group.) :S

[JimmyTheCannon]

It may seem to make a difference, but mechanic wise it makes none. Mechanic wise mobs that have not been attacked or that have not taunted, will attack whoever is generating threat. So the moment a healer throws out a heal on anything within range of the mobs, then the healer will generate a small about of threat to all mobs within, those that have not taunted or attacked will be after the healer. So even if you reduce that threat by 25% or 99.9%. .1 threat is still greater than 0 threat, so they are after the healer. The guard only reduces threat, it does not eliminate it.

 

I play with some very good and some very average players, not to mention plenty of PUGs, I understand how you there can be some frustration with pulls and it seeming like as a healer you are tanking 1/2 a instance. I lol when I see cunning gear drop with absorb or defense, but in a lot of instances it actually makes you think. I really feel like I pull double duty in HM TfB in the room with two cores, no matter how good the tanks are, when we are done I feel like me and the other healer just finished tanking 1/2 the adds. Not saying anything bad about the tanks, because I have done that many times with some tanks that I know that are beyond reproach and have always had the same result.

 

I will say again too. If you are comfortable with the guard and the tank is willing to give it to you, then take it. Personally I don't want it or need it. 5% damage reduction does nothing. I don't even care if the tank uses guard at all. In most HMFP my healer could and has gotten fresh 50's in green leveling gear through them without death or wipes (and that was when I was in Rakata gear). One of the reason I know it is almost impossible for a healer to pull from a tank or dps because I would have pulled there.

 

I'm not talking about the mobs having not been hit. I'm saying they're at range, and the tank has been able to throw one, maybe two hits at those mobs but has to focus on the other ones.

 

The healer's threat does sometimes exceed that one or two hits after a little while.

[Khevar]

I'm not talking about the mobs having not been hit. I'm saying they're at range, and the tank has been able to throw one, maybe two hits at those mobs but has to focus on the other ones.

 

The healer's threat does sometimes exceed that one or two hits after a little while.

Yep. That happens sometimes. And a guard would increase the amount of time before the healer pulls in that situation.

 

But once the healer does pulls, he/she's in trouble. Some players (not saying you're one of them) seem to think that "Guard the Healer" is a solution for this problem, when the actual solution is kill order, CCs, using taunts judiciously, etc.

[JimmyTheCannon]

Yep. That happens sometimes. And a guard would increase the amount of time before the healer pulls in that situation.

 

But once the healer does pulls, he/she's in trouble. Some players (not saying you're one of them) seem to think that "Guard the Healer" is a solution for this problem, when the actual solution is kill order, CCs, using taunts judiciously, etc.

 

Oh, absolutely that's the way to fix it. All I'm saying is - the guard is handy for that situation to just extend the time before that happens. It's really not needed on trash otherwise, so why not use it like that?

 

Also:

The first warning sign is the 23.5k hitpoint Jugg. That's far too many hitpoints.

 

Ah, no. That's about where a well-geared Jugg tank should be, unless you're one of those people who thinks that tanks should go for mainstat-heavy armorings and hilts to get extra threat in exchange for HP.

[Punchy]

Ah, no. That's about where a well-geared Jugg tank should be, unless you're one of those people who thinks that tanks should go for mainstat-heavy armorings and hilts to get extra threat in exchange for HP.

 

I most certainly am one of those people.

 

More so though, endurance is not really a primary factor in tanking. Mitigation stats usually trade off for Endurance (non-lettered mods vs. lettered mods, or mitigation augments vs. endurance augments). Very few fights have the potential to insta-gib someone, and the 2k hitpoint difference between that Jugg and my tank is a lot of threat and a bit more mitigation. Well worth the health dip, imo.

[JimmyTheCannon]

I most certainly am one of those people.

 

More so though, endurance is not really a primary factor in tanking. Mitigation stats usually trade off for Endurance (non-lettered mods vs. lettered mods, or mitigation augments vs. endurance augments). Very few fights have the potential to insta-gib someone, and the 2k hitpoint difference between that Jugg and my tank is a lot of threat and a bit more mitigation. Well worth the health dip, imo.

 

There are some fights (Xeno II HM, for example) where you need that extra HP to soak a burst phase. I wouldn't trade mitigation for it - all of my mods and enhancements are heavy secondary stat - but I don't really experience aggro problems and haven't seen a need to get more mainstat.

 

At full mitigation but with Guardian armorings and hilt I'm sitting at around 23.5k HP, 24k+ with a Prototype Hyper or Exotech stim. Now, if you've got a Jugg tank with more than 25k HP, either he's full 63s or yes, he's stacking endurance and may be a bad (or at least misinformed) tank.

[slafko]

My Shadow is over 28k health in full DG and I haven't noticed any aggro/threat problems whatsoever. But the consensus on these forums is that I suck and troll, so don't listen to me.

[JimmyTheCannon]

My Shadow is over 28k health in full DG and I haven't noticed any aggro/threat problems whatsoever. But the consensus on these forums is that I suck and troll, so don't listen to me.

 

Shadows do tend towards higher HP pools than Juggernauts, although they still shouldn't give up mitigation to get it, from what I understand.

 

I haven't tried a Shadow/Assassin myself yet so I can't really speak to that, but of two that were in my guild, my healers report that the one who went for mitigation over HP was a lot easier to keep alive.

[Punchy]

There are some fights (Xeno II HM, for example) where you need that extra HP to soak a burst phase. I wouldn't trade mitigation for it - all of my mods and enhancements are heavy secondary stat - but I don't really experience aggro problems and haven't seen a need to get more mainstat.

 

At full mitigation but with Guardian armorings and hilt I'm sitting at around 23.5k HP, 24k+ with a Prototype Hyper or Exotech stim. Now, if you've got a Jugg tank with more than 25k HP, either he's full 63s or yes, he's stacking endurance and may be a bad (or at least misinformed) tank.

 

Xeno II HM has no burst phase that will kill you if you have less than 22k HP. I can say that with absolute confidence, having tanked it on 8man and 16man without dying. So in that regard, I will disagree with you.

 

As for the rest, it really comes down to the player. Endurance vs Mainstat on Armourings/Hitls/Barrels... as a tank it is left to their discretion. However, sacrificing mitigation for health is a big "no" in my book.

[slafko]

Shadows do tend towards higher HP pools than Juggernauts, although they still shouldn't give up mitigation to get it, from what I understand.

 

I haven't tried a Shadow/Assassin myself yet so I can't really speak to that, but of two that were in my guild, my healers report that the one who went for mitigation over HP was a lot easier to keep alive.

 

Yep. I had a phase when I was sitting on almost 30k health due to some mods being unavailable for crafting and noticed a bit more effort needed on the healer's part. Made it easier for them by using stronger med-packs and actually popping adrenals.

Edited March 21, 2013 by slafko

[JimmyTheCannon]

Xeno II HM has no burst phase that will kill you if you have less than 22k HP. I can say that with absolute confidence, having tanked it on 8man and 16man without dying. So in that regard, I will disagree with you.

 

As for the rest, it really comes down to the player. Endurance vs Mainstat on Armourings/Hitls/Barrels... as a tank it is left to their discretion. However, sacrificing mitigation for health is a big "no" in my book.

 

In my own experience tanking Xeno II HM, if I don't pop Endure Pain and Invincible when I get TTE I'm going to die.

 

Completely agree with you on the mitigation vs. health part, though.

[Punchy]

In my own experience tanking Xeno II HM, if I don't pop Endure Pain and Invincible when I get TTE I'm going to die.

 

Completely agree with you on the mitigation vs. health part, though.

 

Ahh. Yeah, we circumvent that mechanic by LoSing the cast and breaking the channel. It is actually very feasible to solo-tank 16man HM, it just requires a very high level of skill on the tank's part, and possibly a fantastic sage.

 

(/poke Aurojiin)

[JimmyTheCannon]

Ahh. Yeah, we circumvent that mechanic by LoSing the cast and breaking the channel. It is actually very feasible to solo-tank 16man HM, it just requires a very high level of skill on the tank's part, and possibly a fantastic sage.

 

(/poke Aurojiin)

 

Different strategies. ::Shrugs:: Nothing wrong with that. I prefer doing it our way, it's simpler and I don't have to depend on a healer being capable of healing me through some stacks.

 

I like to think I'm skilled at Jug tanking, but for a Jug to LOS that cast requires help from other players - Predation from a Marauder, Extricate from a Sorc, or any other friendly standing next to one of the pillars for an Intercede.

 

Might try that next time anyway, the Intercede part, but my guild isn't going to depend on it.

[Kitru]

There are some fights (Xeno II HM, for example) where you need that extra HP to soak a burst phase.

 

There is no fight in the game where you need more than ~25k for 8m or ~27k for 16m. Anything above that is just a buffer of questionable value (if you never drop below 2k hp, what's the point of having 28k hp instead of 26k hp?). Massive hp pools aren't actually useful from a mechanical perspective; their only value is psychological and, even then, it's of questionable value if you're dealing with people that actually know the game.

 

Even on fights like Xenu (XENU!!!), where you'll take a crapton of damage as a tank during Generate Urgency, the extra hp isn't actually all that valuable (personally, I've found it best to just not bother trying to "tank" it and just allow the threat dropping to slowly cycle through everyone since even DPS and healers should be able to take one of those hits; it's pretty much impossible for a tank to take more than 2-3 Generate Urgencies in a row, regardless of their hp or mitigation stats since it hits so friggin' hard so friggin' fast). More than hp, actually using your CDs is key to surviving those massive burst damage situations. If your CDs aren't supposed to keep you alive, then you're screwing up the mechanics and no degree of hp stacking is going to keep you standing.

 

Every time I do 16m Xenu as a tank (which I tend to do), I generally get told by some random idiot that I shouldn't be main tanking because I "don't have enough hp" (my Shadow has 25k with stim and my VG has 24k with stim; I don't bother using a stim for Xenu either, so it shows as ~23k and ~22k). Inevitably, after much facepalming, it's decided that I'll be maintanking *anyways* since I have better mitigation than the Endurance stacking Noxxic-ologist that has no clue what he's doing and get told in the end that, holy crap, I was *way* easier to heal than the people they're used to dealing with. On top of that, I also never lost threat even against the DPS that say they *always* steal threat from the tank.

 

Honestly, if I want to gauge the quality of a tank I'm dealing with in a pug, I look at his/her hp. If they've got more than 25k, chances are, they're a bad tank (there are a few exceptions involving people in BiS with an Exotech stim active, but you're not gonna see a lot of those in a pug; even then, if they're above 28k, they're bad), mainly because it means they're using Fort augs and other mechanisms that reduce their mitigation in order to bolster their hp for no useful purpose. Beyond that, it's a question of observing how heavily they rely on their taunts to maintain aggro (if they're taunt fluffing, it's generally a bad sign, especially if they're taunting off of someone else who is a tank) and a few things that are just class based (a bad VG tank runs out of ammo; a bad Shadow tank spams DS and/or doesn't use their HS stacks; a bad Guardian can never maintain threat).

 

Who gets Guard is such a *minor* and generally pointless question that it doesn't even *matter*; any tank worth their salt won't *need* to Guard anyone, even if that person is a ridiculously good DPS, so trying to determine the quality of a tank based upon Guard placement is a completely pointless notion. As has been pointed out, there are logical reasons that show a strong fundamental knowledge of game mechanics as to why you should put Guard on DPS as well as healers. What matters more than *who* you're guarding is understanding *why* you should be guarding (or not guarding) that person in the first place and, honestly, you're not going to find that out by looking at who gets the Guard (the tank could put Guard on the healer purely because of the DR because they know that threat is a non-issue or they might actually put it on the healer because they think it will actually make the healer less likely to get threat on targets that no one has touched yet). Unlike Guard targets, gear is actually a pretty decent indicator of knowledge of game mechanics: if someone is itemized properly (re: no accuracy, not a redundantly large hp pool, mitigation maximized and properly set based on class) it shows that, even if they don't know *why* they're doing it, they at least had the wherewithal to get answers from someone that *does*, which is more than most people have done (the sheer number of Noxxic-ologists I've seen that honestly think Noxxic is the final word in optimization without ever checking *anything* astound me; even if you don't want to do the math yourself, get more than one opinion, seriously).

[JimmyTheCannon]

There is no fight in the game where you need more than ~25k for 8m or ~27k for 16m. Anything above that is just a buffer of questionable value (if you never drop below 2k hp, what's the point of having 28k hp instead of 26k hp?).

 

Oh, absolutely. But above someone said that if a tank has more than 23k they're a bad, and that's just not true.

[LastWizard]

I put my guard on healer for trash, and dps for bosses simple concept.

[slafko]

Oh, absolutely. But above someone said that if a tank has more than 23k they're a bad, and that's just not true.

 

Lies. I have over 28k and it's been established that I'm a bad tank. Start paying attention already.

[Kitru]

Lies. I have over 28k and it's been established that I'm a bad tank. Start paying attention already.

 

You're a bad tank for *other* reasons.

[Punchy]

Oh, absolutely. But above someone said that if a tank has more than 23k they're a bad, and that's just not true.

 

Never said they were bad. Was making a bit of a joke. You have to understand that I play an incredibly aggressive tank. My tank (which has the Warstalker title) sits at 22,992 hitpoints fully buffed, with an Endurance stim.

 

Also, I would quote Kitru... but it'd just be a wall of text saying how much I agree. You guys don't need to read that.

[Kawabonga]

The high hp, just like the guard on healers, doesn't make for a bad tank... Assassins get higher self heals with higher hp... maybe it's useless but overcharge sabers saved my *** a couple of times while waiting for the healer to get revived in some fights... i have 29k fully buffed and stimmed, and my mitigations stats are 31/46/54. I don't have the warstalker title, but i'm never the one dying first and others are not dying because healers have to focus too much on me. Maybe having crazy 35 50 60 and 22k hp is better, but that doesn't make 29k bad

[Punchy]

The high hp, just like the guard on healers, doesn't make for a bad tank... Assassins get higher self heals with higher hp... maybe it's useless but overcharge sabers saved my *** a couple of times while waiting for the healer to get revived in some fights... i have 29k fully buffed and stimmed, and my mitigations stats are 31/46/54. I don't have the warstalker title, but i'm never the one dying first and others are not dying because healers have to focus too much on me. Maybe having crazy 35 50 60 and 22k hp is better, but that doesn't make 29k bad

 

In a raid scenario, guarding the healer is usually a bad sign. There are few exceptions (Dread Guards, Pre-Phase 2 Operator IX, Phase 2 TFB, Vorgath - they're the ones that spring to mind). In a raid scenario, having 29k health is bad. Your survivability suffers from the choice you made by taking endurance instead of mitigation stats. It may not cause a wipe, granted, but you are not using your class to its maximum potential with that many hitpoints. Not even close.