Primadonna tanks

[oslek]

Why do people keep introducing different scenarios? I'm talking about the scenario with the meglo-maniac, undewhelming tank + everyone else is normal- scenario.

 

It's becoming cliche to blame dps and make heals and tanks the martyrs.

Haven't we all played every role already? What's with the bias?

 

Because as a DPS you're not suppose to be the first one to pull. If you're being insistent on pulling first then you deserve the wrath of the Tank.

[Katrasle]

So many weird replies in this thread. I have tanked, dpsed and healed my way up and through level 50 HM flashpoints.

 

Here is a question for many of you, have you ever actually LOOKED at the difficulty of these pulls in flashpoints? They are a joke... around the difficulty of a Heroic 2 most of the time. I will pull groups as a dps (sniper) because they are weak enough to be soloed. There is zero reason to sit and form a strategy for trash in this game and things like crowd control are overkill.

 

As a tank, I simply do not let the dps pull before me. My group does not spend the flashpoint waiting on me, they spend the flashpoint trying to keep up with me. I will pull and start to pull the next group before the first is completely killed... How can I do this?, because flashpoints are a joke in terms of difficulty.

 

You guys all overhype how difficult flashpoints are in this game. No CC or strategy required (generally)... aoe everything and finish the FP and get out.

[slafko]

As a tank, I simply do not let the dps pull before me. My group does not spend the flashpoint waiting on me, they spend the flashpoint trying to keep up with me. I will pull and start to pull the next group before the first is completely killed... How can I do this?, because flashpoints are a joke in terms of difficulty.

 

Finally a normal tank. Hallelujah! Praise the Force! \o/

 

If I am tanking and DPS pulls first... I am out. There is NO reason for DPS to pull first ever.

I will always pull first when I'm on dps and I have a slow tank that takes a coffee break before aggroing each mob. If they leave, good. Maybe the team will get a better tank and move on.

Edited March 15, 2013 by slafko

[Cleet_Xia]

Oh I don't know, I bad tank can ruin the group a lot more than a bad DPS. In fact a bad healer could ruin the group too. The fact that there is only one tanking slot and that is required to be filled with a decent player who can tank, if you don't get a decent player as tank it can really halt all progress in the group.

 

Most of the time if there's a bad DPS and a good tank the tank's DPS can make up for the bad DPS and if the tank is on the ball he can make up for the bad DPS's pulls.

 

Tanks and Healers are much more important to have a competent player as their roles, as in HMs you only get one. A bad DPS isn't as bad because the other group members can make up for it.

 

I never said bad healers or bad tanks didn't create problems. I said a bad DPS inflicts misery on the GROUP. A bad tank mostly just an irritant to the healer. A bad healer is mostly just an irritant to their least favorite dps. But a bad DPS irritates the tank, the healer, AND the other DPS ~ if they're any good. Sure, bad healers and tanks cause party wipes on bosses. But every last time I've wiped on a trash fight was caused by a bad DPS either making a pull with an AoE, breaking CC, not practicing a firing order, or not focus firing down strongs with the rest of the team. Party wipes on trash fights shouldn't ever happen ~ It's just stupid.

 

I mean seriously,, a tank is too slow to pull? That's the typical uber leet dps complaint, and their justification for intentionally making pulls. SO WHAT if it takes an extra 4 minutes to complete a FP. If you're that damn impatient and inconsiderate, or that keyed up on RL stims, you're going on my /block list.

 

Fact is a horrible player can single target tank any HM boss in the game, and do it well. So long as that tank has on level tanking gear & the dps are smart enough not to lead off with their highest burst possible or make the pull ~ like they would if they were playing solo with a companion. If instead, they lead off by spamming free attacks for 3 GCD's - they will never take agro from the tank unless they grossly outgear them, or the tank pops a threat dump. If you're intentionally trying to pull agro off the tank, it's not because your a great dps, or because they're a bad tank, it's because you're a jerk stroking your ePeen in front of 3 other people.

 

Likewise, a pretty horrible healer can heal just about any HM boss in the game, and do it well. So long as that healer has on level healing gear & the dps are smart enough to avoid taking damage they should be avoiding. It's not difficult, just stay out of the boss' face & run from AOE. If you are a melee DPS in a HM & you can see the boss' face ~ YOU are doing something wrong. If you are mad at the tank because they keep turning the boss away from you, it's because you're an idiot. Your threat dumps, interrupts, and defensive CDs are 1 mouse click away......are you really too lazy to use them?

 

Being a "bad" DPS has very little to do with putting up poor amounts of damage.

 

A group of 3 healers and a tank can DPS down almost every HM boss in this game - ON LEVEL. A "bad" DPS is a bad team player. And most of the "bad" DPS players blame everyone except themselves for their poor experience in group content ~ eventhough they consistently wreck groups for 3 other players. And if you're finding that GF & WZs are taking forever to pop ~ it's probably because you've been /blocked by more people than you realize.

 

What makes you a "good" DPS, is everything you can do to make content more fun for everyone else ~ on top of doing enough damage to beat the enrage timers. There are no prizes for "beating down the boss in record time".

Edited March 16, 2013 by Cleet_Xia

[VigDiath]

I'm one of those Tanks who hates DPS and especially Healers grabbing aggro first! I like it when I don't have to use taunts in a FP, it means I've done my job and done it well. But every time a healer or dps pulls aggro first I have to use my AOE taunt which means if there is an 'oh sh*t' moment later on or right after the pull our chances of wiping increase. All because people want to be impatient.

 

I will agree on one point tho: If DPS can manage by jumping in and pulling aggro before me without dying and the healer is ok with it, I'm ok with it. Issue is, some dps jump in and aggro a mob and get killed, then look at the tank like "why didn't you grab aggro?" When I play with that kind of DPS I let him die. But if a dps can keep it fast paced moving without dying or complaining if they do, I have no issue with that.

 

But it's nice to treat your tanks with gratitude in a game where there's rarely enough tanks to make queues pop faster.

[Grumpftard]

Now, I'm a pretty good tank. I wouldn't say Primadonna... Elitist a** hole maybe... Well OK... Sometimes.

But I operate within reason. I generally don't blame DPS for crap (definitely not the healers). If it's accidental.... Got it. No harm no foul. I can handle the results. If I'm heading in to pull and a saber goes flying by my head.... Yeah, no big deal. Its not like he's gonna be able to hold threat against me, and the run was probably moving pretty quick so his little DPS E-peen was all happy.... Whatever.

Now if he's just being stupid and dive bombing whole packs while people are healing / typing / gathering, etc.....then I'm gonna ride it out... Pop my CD's.... Be the last one standing... Force Cloak..... Rez everyone but the moron....then tell the healer, " please do not rez him, idiots get the privilege of running back". Elitist a**hole comments ensue.... Followed by /nerdrage, /ragequit..... We three man the rest.... Everyone else has a great time. Life moves on.

Do tanks get a superiority complex? Yes they do. It's because about 75-80% of the responsibility for a successful run falls on the tank. The overwhelming mass majority of complaints I see from groups where they blame the heals or DPS, they SHOULD be blaming the tank . In my opinion it is NOT cliche to blame the tank for a bad run. It's usually well deserved. And believe me.... There are WAY too many fail tanks out there.

[ubermouth]

Now, I'm a pretty good tank. I wouldn't say Primadonna... Elitist a** hole maybe... Well OK... Sometimes.

But I operate within reason. I generally don't blame DPS for crap (definitely not the healers). If it's accidental.... Got it. No harm no foul. I can handle the results. If I'm heading in to pull and a saber goes flying by my head.... Yeah, no big deal. Its not like he's gonna be able to hold threat against me, and the run was probably moving pretty quick so his little DPS E-peen was all happy.... Whatever.

Now if he's just being stupid and dive bombing whole packs while people are healing / typing / gathering, etc.....then I'm gonna ride it out... Pop my CD's.... Be the last one standing... Force Cloak..... Rez everyone but the moron....then tell the healer, " please do not rez him, idiots get the privilege of running back". Elitist a**hole comments ensue.... Followed by /nerdrage, /ragequit..... We three man the rest.... Everyone else has a great time. Life moves on.

Do tanks get a superiority complex? Yes they do. It's because about 75-80% of the responsibility for a successful run falls on the tank. The overwhelming mass majority of complaints I see from groups where they blame the heals or DPS, they SHOULD be blaming the tank . In my opinion it is NOT cliche to blame the tank for a bad run. It's usually well deserved. And believe me.... There are WAY too many fail tanks out there.

 

thank you.

bu there are usually never pug tanks that admit they have tunnel vision, turn their back on their healers, position poorly or move excruciatingly slow for no tactical advantage etc. most tanks pug tanks are average to below-average in terms of efficiency. however, most pug tanks have an above average sense of importance that is not justifiable based off of demonstrated skill.

the problem is is that a lot of tanks don't play for skill/efficiency, as they don't find technical play fun, but rather they play because they fancy themselves heroes.

 

honestly, with an group of semi-skilled players, you can do most hm fp w/o a tank.

which indicates that it's factors like position, timing, and intelligence, and not simply the presence of a meat-shield that accounts for successful runs where everyone isn't super over-geared.

[ubermouth]

Keeping with your original scenario, did you say anything about why you were pulling first, did you tell the group that doing so would be beneficial to the group? Or did you pull first and explain after the tank got cranky?

 

i never said i was pulling first, did i? nor did i advocate stupid dps throwing things into chaos.

i'm talking about tanks that think that they are the only people in the group that can make decisions about positioning, timing etc.

honestly, this game is so easy, that as a tank, i could give a crap if someone pulls first. if you're with a decent group, you should be able to handle any trash pull.

[ubermouth]

So many weird replies in this thread. I have tanked, dpsed and healed my way up and through level 50 HM flashpoints.

 

Here is a question for many of you, have you ever actually LOOKED at the difficulty of these pulls in flashpoints? They are a joke... around the difficulty of a Heroic 2 most of the time. I will pull groups as a dps (sniper) because they are weak enough to be soloed. There is zero reason to sit and form a strategy for trash in this game and things like crowd control are overkill.

 

As a tank, I simply do not let the dps pull before me. My group does not spend the flashpoint waiting on me, they spend the flashpoint trying to keep up with me. I will pull and start to pull the next group before the first is completely killed... How can I do this?, because flashpoints are a joke in terms of difficulty.

 

You guys all overhype how difficult flashpoints are in this game. No CC or strategy required (generally)... aoe everything and finish the FP and get out.

 

i heart you

[ubermouth]

this isnt about dps pulling first

 

i never claimed to be a super skilled dps. i guess i'm elitist if i expect people to demonstrate a semblance of skill related to organizing pulls, and paying attention when navigating.

 

i've cleared all hm ops/fp as every role- which is barely an accomplishment in this game ( -made for dumb dumbs).

i love tanking. but as a dps, i *********** hate poopy tanks who feel entitled simply because someone said tanks are the leaders or because they think that content can't be cleared w/o them - which is patently untrue for hm fp.

tanks aren't the leader by default. they should be booted just as quickly as an annoying dps who isn't pulling his weight.

the leader is the smartest player in the group, not the meat sheild with a hero complex

Edited March 17, 2013 by ubermouth

[grallmate]

i've cleared all hm ops/fp as every role- which is barely an accomplishment in this game ( -made for dumb dumbs).

 

As have I. On multiple toons in each role.

 

i love tanking. but as a dps, i *********** hate poopy tanks who feel entitled simply because someone said tanks are the leaders or because they think that content can't be cleared w/o them - which is patently untrue for hm fp.

 

As do I. However the ONLY reason tanks are no longer required for HM FPs is the vast over gearing. Back when these were being run in less than Tionese? You can bet you wouldn't get far without a tank. In a few weeks when 2.0 hits? I suspect tanks will become a LOT more important again.

 

tanks aren't the leader by default. they should be booted just as quickly as an annoying dps who isn't pulling his weight.

the leader is the smartest player in the group, not the meat sheild with a hero complex

 

The "leader" of the group is whoever formed it or whoever group finder deigned to be leader. However someone will usually step up and guide everyone else through the run. Now that could be the DPS or the Healer but most of the time its the tank. Why? Tanks are all about staying alive and getting people to do what they're supposed to in a fight really helps that goal. Similarly, if no one speaks up people tend to just follow the tank. Now keep in mind, following someone is vastly different from that person actually leading.

 

Now that said, I like to lead. As a tank I pull pretty quickly as long as everyone is healthy and the healer isn't struggling. I like running with DPS that kill quickly and follow the right kill order. I *HATE* running with DPS that break CC (in the rare ocassion that I use it) or pull before me. You pull it, you tank it. You break it, you tank it. I'll just /sit here and watch unless I need to save the healer.

 

There are plenty of other tanks like me out there, we're the kind of tanks it sounds like you want to run with. When you find one of us, /friend them. If you're as good as you say we'd gladly run with you. If they're not keen to run with you, you might like to look in the mirror before you blame the tank.

Edited March 18, 2013 by grallmate

[ubermouth]

this all sounds fairly reasonable.

and i specifically agree with your point about tanks being required for under-geared runs. i will qualify my point to say that tanks are necessary under certain conditions, but not in all.

i would love to go back to the days when we all had lower gear. that's when the game is fun. when it's challenging, and you need each team member to employ reasoned tactics.

but in this day and age, i see a lot of uninspiring tanks with controlling egos employ crap tactics.

 

As have I. On multiple toons in each role.

 

 

 

As do I. However the ONLY reason tanks are no longer required for HM FPs is the vast over gearing. Back when these were being run in less than Tionese? You can bet you wouldn't get far without a tank. In a few weeks when 2.0 hits? I suspect tanks will become a LOT more important again.

 

 

 

The "leader" of the group is whoever formed it or whoever group finder deigned to be leader. However someone will usually step up and guide everyone else through the run. Now that could be the DPS or the Healer but most of the time its the tank. Why? Tanks are all about staying alive and getting people to do what they're supposed to in a fight really helps that goal. Similarly, if no one speaks up people tend to just follow the tank. Now keep in mind, following someone is vastly different from that person actually leading.

 

Now that said, I like to lead. As a tank I pull pretty quickly as long as everyone is healthy and the healer isn't struggling. I like running with DPS that kill quickly and follow the right kill order. I *HATE* running with DPS that break CC (in the rare ocassion that I use it) or pull before me. You pull it, you tank it. You break it, you tank it. I'll just /sit here and watch unless I need to save the healer.

 

There are plenty of other tanks like me out there, we're the kind of tanks it sounds like you want to run with. When you find one of us, /friend them. If you're as good as you say we'd gladly run with you. If they're not keen to run with you, you might like to look in the mirror before you blame the tank.

[Never_Hesitate]

this all sounds fairly reasonable.

and i specifically agree with your point about tanks being required for under-geared runs. i will qualify my point to say that tanks are necessary under certain conditions, but not in all.

i would love to go back to the days when we all had lower gear. that's when the game is fun. when it's challenging, and you need each team member to employ reasoned tactics.

but in this day and age, i see a lot of uninspiring tanks with controlling egos employ crap tactics.

 

same counts for dps and healer.

at some point I can make enough dmg on my tank or take so little dmg that the other roles aren't necessarily needed.

I don't say they're not important, but I'd rather kick a stupid cc breaking dps than dragging him along

[JouerTue]

the first day i read this thread, i closed my browser and queued for a FP:

the battle of ilum, ok.

the guardian tank has 28k hp, even better.

we skip the first boss running through and we aggro, the tank stays a bit to fight and then ran too.

when the combat status ends he types: what the **** are you doing! you almost let me die! ( actually i threw my heals at him, but as a commando it's not my best performance the one on the move) I AM THE TANK! in caps..

 

and then he started to behave like asking if everyone was ready before every trash..explaining every cm of the fp..while we others new our job..so drama queen that i thought he just read this thread and he was joking!

 

i inspected him again and the valor rank 1 made me think..when i tank i cannot imagine to do something like that..i know that if someone in the group needs a lead because it's new, tank is the role that leading can get things smoother for everyone, unless you want to talk or the taank is the newbie..

[ubermouth]

I agree.

Skill allows for flexibility

same counts for dps and healer.

at some point I can make enough dmg on my tank or take so little dmg that the other roles aren't necessarily needed.

I don't say they're not important, but I'd rather kick a stupid cc breaking dps than dragging him along

[slafko]

i inspected him again and the valor rank 1 made me think..

What does Valor rank have anything to do with flashpoints or even PvE for that matter?

[LadyKohastFel]

Now, I'm a pretty good tank. I wouldn't say Primadonna... Elitist a** hole maybe... Well OK... Sometimes.

But I operate within reason. I generally don't blame DPS for crap (definitely not the healers). If it's accidental.... Got it. No harm no foul. I can handle the results. If I'm heading in to pull and a saber goes flying by my head.... Yeah, no big deal. Its not like he's gonna be able to hold threat against me, and the run was probably moving pretty quick so his little DPS E-peen was all happy.... Whatever.

Now if he's just being stupid and dive bombing whole packs while people are healing / typing / gathering, etc.....then I'm gonna ride it out... Pop my CD's.... Be the last one standing... Force Cloak..... Rez everyone but the moron....then tell the healer, " please do not rez him, idiots get the privilege of running back". Elitist a**hole comments ensue.... Followed by /nerdrage, /ragequit..... We three man the rest.... Everyone else has a great time. Life moves on.

Do tanks get a superiority complex? Yes they do. It's because about 75-80% of the responsibility for a successful run falls on the tank. The overwhelming mass majority of complaints I see from groups where they blame the heals or DPS, they SHOULD be blaming the tank . In my opinion it is NOT cliche to blame the tank for a bad run. It's usually well deserved. And believe me.... There are WAY too many fail tanks out there.

 

When I encounter a fail tank in random queues I simply whisper the other people in the party and let them know I have a tank and I am happy to switch over and tank if they drop group and reform, And almost all of the time when we lose the dead weight of a fail tank and I tank the run goes as smooth as butter.

 

The good DPS usually have the ultimate comeback to a primadonna tank saying "I would like to see you do a better job then.". The good DPS are good because they have learned all the roles and they can quite happily tank , heal or DPS through anything knowing exactly what the tank and healers will be (or should be) doing at any given point in a fight because they have already done the fight in every role.

 

And by extension good healers and tanks will also have toons in the other roles so that they know where they need to be in relation to the other members of the team.

 

And tanks are not the automatic leaders of groups by the sole virtue of being a tank. The natural leader of a team is the most experienced member of the team , it is only a coincidence that tanks get more pops in flashpoints (when they can be bothered to run more than the 3 a week that they need for the weekly) and thus have more experience in flashpoints.

Edited November 27, 2013 by LadyKohastFel