Scripts in PVP

[JackNader]

The OP never said this was a pure botting program, you still have to pilot and select targets, but the script would run an optimal DPS rotation, that is entirely within the realm of possibility. As far as latency causing issues, SWTOR already has a built in latency compensator, you can queue up actions before the GCD is finished, so minor lags in latency can be easily compensated..

 

This might sound good on paper but this is not reality.

 

Full scripting automation is extremely difficult to do. It is plagued with latency issues which actually puts you at a disadvantage. What you do "gain" from doing such things is a simplification of the number of buttons you need to press. The tradeoff is like I said, latency issues and that the script will never ever select the correct ability in every situation. There will be a lot of times when the script behaves poorly and puts you at a significant disadvantage.

 

Let's assume a very very simple "macro" program is in play like the stock razor macro programs. You can in theory set out a rotation.. for instance open with ability A, then ability B twice, then ability C.

 

Razor software has extremely bad latency issues. To execute the above macro you would need to insert "delays." Now all razor products, including the Swtor razor products come with macro software that can insert delays. If Bioware has a specific problem with delays, they shouldn't have signed the deal with razor. Now the thing is.. just because you add a delay of 250ms into the macro does not mean the delay will actually be 250ms. When it executes, it's completely random. The actual delay depends on factors which are totally out of the control of the user and macro program.

 

Bioware has a 1.5 GCD. What this means is that abilities need to line up with the GCD or they will fail to execute. This is the very first problem to overcome with any macro. The only way to do it is to mash the button multiple times and pray it actually fires off in the correct GCD. You cannot actually overcome this problem 100%. In the course of a fight there will always be skipped GCD's. Skipped GCD's always put you at a great disadvantage.

 

The second problem, and this is a major problem. Writing a full length script with perfect rotations just isn't practical. Any time you are stunned or unable to attack, the script continues to work in the background and it will actually mess up your rotation. The most optimal and lazy way to game is to simply bind a lot of buttons to a single button and mash it. This is perfectly acceptable. You lose control but gain simplicity. Does this give you an advantage over people who individual press buttons? No. A good player who is properly controlling their character will actually have an advantage over you because their rotations will always be more appropriate to the situation. There is no way around this. For this reason I flat out don't care whether people Macro or not. Are there a lot of people using Macros? Hell yes. Are there a lot of people using scripts to macro? Probably. Are there a lot of people fully scripting out toons? Highly unlikely.

 

 

*Oh one thing I forgot to point out. Swtor NPC's are a perfect example of what a scripted rotation does. It makes them extremely predictable and easy to overcome. This is why NPC's typically have jacked up damage and health. They are too inferior to real people.

Edited April 4, 2013 by JackNader

[Crawelc]

I will give a baseline example of the simplest things a true 3rd party script program can do better than a player. How would you like to keybind clicking off your bubble stun? Done in less than 2 mins. So yes it can manage procs and resources and gcds and many other things much better than a person can.

[DarthBloodloss]

This is an example of what I would guess is the most common way to use a script in PvP. Note that this is against the terms of service.

 

Put this as one button click on a gaming mouse. You click the mouse button and it "clicks" each attack one time, with basically no delay in between:

 

use Thermal Detonator

use Explosive Dart

use Railshot

use Unload

use Rapid Shots

 

This makes it so my highest priority attack will always fire off. If one is on cooldown, the next one will go off.

 

Disclaimer: My main is a Merc so clearly I have no need for such a script with such few buttons to work with. (My old posts contain WZ video footage, in case you suspect I actually do use this.) But its very obvious to me how one could use, and potentially benefit from (if their skills or reaction time are lacking) a script in PvP.

Edited April 4, 2013 by DarthBloodloss

[Crawelc]

This is an example of what I would guess is the most common way to use a script in PvP. Note that this is against the terms of service.

 

Put this as one button click on a gaming mouse. You click the mouse button and it "clicks" each attack one time, with basically no delay in between:

 

use Thermal Detonator

use Explosive Dart

use Railshot

use Unload

use Rapid Shots

 

This makes it so my highest priority attack will always fire off. If one is on cooldown, the next one will go off.

 

Disclaimer: My main is a Merc so clearly I have no need for such a script with such few buttons to work with. (My old posts contain WZ video footage, in case you suspect I actually do use this.) But its very obvious to me how one could use, and potentially benefit from, a script in PvP.

 

The part about priority instead of just using those in a specific order is important here.

[JackNader]

This is an example of what I would guess is the most common way to use a script in PvP. Note that this is against the terms of service.

 

Put this as one button click on a gaming mouse. You click the mouse button and it "clicks" each attack one time, with basically no delay in between:

 

use Thermal Detonator

use Explosive Dart

use Railshot

use Unload

use Rapid Shots

 

^This

 

This is a basic macro. It is simply binding many buttons to 1 button and it is not illegal at all. Some classes do really well doing this. Powertechs and warriors are very very easy to play like this. Sorcs, assasins and mercs, on the other hand cannot be controlled like this. They have too many things that require proper setup to be played correctly.

[DarthBloodloss]

Let's assume a very very simple "macro" program is in play like the stock razor macro programs. You can in theory set out a rotation.. for instance open with ability A, then ability B twice, then ability C.

Don't think of it as a rotation type macro. We all agree that its not going to work very well, most of the time. Try to think of it more like a Priority macro. When you click the macro, it will only result in one attack being activated. But that attack will be your highest priority available without you having to think about which one it is.

 

You'd click the same 1-button but each time you click it, it fires off your biggest hitter. When you need to Choke/Leap and set up a combo, you do that manually. But for any non-combo attack.....you could have them all mapped to 1 button.

[DarthBloodloss]

It is simply binding many buttons to 1 button and it is not illegal at all.

 

This is a serious question..not sarcastic!

 

But how sure of that are you? I was under the impression that anything remotely resembling a "macro" is not allowed. Even binding WZ Adrenal and WZ Medpack to the same button would count as a macro.

[JackNader]

100% serious. It is absolutely legal to bind many buttons to 1 button because you are still physically required to press buttons and you are limited to 1 ability per GCD.

 

Full automation scripts are NOT legal, despite the fact they don't actually give any advantage. Pixel reading scripts are absolutely unequivocally illegal.

[Crawelc]

100% serious. It is absolutely legal to bind many buttons to 1 button because you are still physically required to press buttons and you are limited to 1 ability per GCD.

 

Full automation scripts are NOT legal, despite the fact they don't actually give any advantage. Pixel reading scripts are absolutely unequivocally illegal.

 

Pixel reader scripts are what this whole thread has been about. Maybe I need to edit the op to make that clearer.

[JackNader]

Well editing the main post to highlight pixel scripts would be wise.

[cashogy_reborn]

I will give a baseline example of the simplest things a true 3rd party script program can do better than a player. How would you like to keybind clicking off your bubble stun? Done in less than 2 mins. So yes it can manage procs and resources and gcds and many other things much better than a person can.

 

well that example is going to be obsolete in 2 weeks

 

i still dont think that these scripts give an advantage over a skilled player. the worst thing it can do is make a bad player appear better.

 

its not like a speed hack, teleporting, lag switching, etc; scripts are within the "laws" of the game. which means the only true advantage they can give is faster reaction times. and lets be honest, we are talking about a difference of at the most tenths of a second, possibly even less.

[DarthBloodloss]

From the Code of Conduct page (dated November 2011):

 

"You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate."

 

Well, if I normally kick *** in warzones.....macros are ok because I won't be gaining anything at an accelerated rate!

 

Also, it does mention "stored rapid keystrokes" as something not acceptable, even though it doesn't label them as a macro.

[JackNader]

Yeh, the eula needs to be updated. Bioware signed a deal with razor to produce hardware which supports macros lol. It's actually a selling feature. I've seen a dev post a while back which basically talks about automation etc. As long as people still press buttons, it's all good.

[DarthBloodloss]

Yea you're right:

Greetings everyone,

 

When talking about anything macro related we would like to provide the following guidelines:

• No automation
  
• No delays or looped commands in macros
  
• It is okay to bind a macro that performs abilities after each other as long as it still requires the user to press the button on the physical keyboard each time a new action is performed
  

These rules apply regardless of which peripheral you are using.

 

Hope this clears it up a bit, but if you have further questions regarding the topic please get back to us!

Edited April 4, 2013 by DarthBloodloss

[cashogy_reborn]

Yeh, the eula needs to be updated. Bioware signed a deal with razor to produce hardware which supports macros lol. It's actually a selling feature. I've seen a dev post a while back which basically talks about automation etc. As long as people still press buttons, it's all good.

 

iirc, that dev said that the only illegal macro is the kind w/ time delays built in, ie to remove the need for button pressing at all

[Crawelc]

Thank you for your feedback.

[KamujinKravshera]

From the Code of Conduct page (dated November 2011):

 

"You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate."

 

Well, if I normally kick *** in warzones.....macros are ok because I won't be gaining anything at an accelerated rate!

 

Also, it does mention "stored rapid keystrokes" as something not acceptable, even though it doesn't label them as a macro.

 

This is part of the problem with this whole discussion. Aside from the people who think this thread is about BOTS (It's not BTW), the distinction between what is a macro and what is a script is very hard to make. I also believe that the vast majority of decent players are using a macro of some form. I also believe that these macros very likely violate the TOS to some degree. Some players have gone way beyond simple macros into things we are calling scripts, but they could very easily be described as intelligent macros.

 

All of this said, at the high end of the game, players ARE using tools to automate their attack selection, even if it's only to prioritize something like dispatch over a basic attack. The more sophisticated the macro/script, the more trivialized their action choices become. They still make choices, which is why these are not bots.

 

Bioware most certainly opened the door to this kind of gameplay with their branded razor mouse and I don't see it going away. I also don't see this as completely game breaking, but it is kind of unfair to people who are strictly complying with the ToS in the same way steroid use in sports is unfair to competitors who don't use them.

[Atramar]

This is part of the problem with this whole discussion. Aside from the people who think this thread is about BOTS (It's not BTW), the distinction between what is a macro and what is a script is very hard to make. I also believe that the vast majority of decent players are using a macro of some form. I also believe that these macros very likely violate the TOS to some degree. Some players have gone way beyond simple macros into things we are calling scripts, but they could very easily be described as intelligent macros.

 

All of this said, at the high end of the game, players ARE using tools to automate their attack selection, even if it's only to prioritize something like dispatch over a basic attack. The more sophisticated the macro/script, the more trivialized their action choices become. They still make choices, which is why these are not bots.

 

Bioware most certainly opened the door to this kind of gameplay with their branded razor mouse and I don't see it going away. I also don't see this as completely game breaking, but it is kind of unfair to people who are strictly complying with the ToS in the same way steroid use in sports is unfair to competitors who don't use them.

 

You belive in to many things.

Macro finisher>autoattack is not even slightly game breaking,nor can be comparable to people using steroids in sports.

[KamujinKravshera]

You belive in to many things.

Macro finisher>autoattack is not even slightly game breaking,nor can be comparable to people using steroids in sports.

 

I also don't see this as completely game breaking, but it is kind of unfair to people who are strictly complying with the ToS in the same way steroid use in sports is unfair to competitors who don't use them.

 

You don't believe in enough. Macro finishers are not the full extent of macro / script use in the game.

 

The finisher is on it's own key by design. Binding it to your other attack absolutely trivializes the game. Each additional level of intelligence added to the macro further trivializes the game until at some point it does become a major game breaking advantage.

Edited April 4, 2013 by KamujinKravshera

[jolleebindu]

Most useful macro I made was to link guild vent info...

Second most useful was binding /flap to a key - very nice in pug huttball matches

[Crawelc]

Thank you for your feedback.

[HaLeX]

Theyre being used. I am 100% convinced. We need to just make these legal because EA can't detect them atm and its unfair to the majority who aren't using them. IMHO

[Mookind]

You don't believe in enough. Macro finishers are not the full extent of macro / script use in the game.

 

The finisher is on it's own key by design. Binding it to your other attack absolutely trivializes the game. Each additional level of intelligence added to the macro further trivializes the game until at some point it does become a major game breaking advantage.

 

But that is about the limit of an effective macro. The rest is all situational............

 

You cited the ONE TIME you always want to do something lol

[cashogy_reborn]

i once used a script (which i wrote myself) to assist my focus target. since for some reason this was not able to be bound to a specific key. it was really simple, i just hit "x" and it would perform f11 -> f12, which i had set to "target focus target" and "acquire target's target" respectively.

 

does that make me a hacker? nah.

[DeadDogBarking]

Is the advantage of having a move executed *exactly* every 1.5 seconds not enough for you?

 

What about the possibility of a script that moves you? Doesn't seem like a big deal, unless it also somehow detects the way your target is facing, and constantly moves you to keep you *behind* the target so they keep getting the 'must be facing target'.

 

this is easy

right now my merc has to stop moving to fire. I have to decide to stop choose the best ability in the cooldown tree then within about 3 possible attack styles. Choose to buff then attack. I can not put all of these close enough together to do each task reliably, but know that is the trick.

 

The macro (which is a script) for effective damage and movement

1. ****-q,w,e - add shift to your forward strafe right /left key this initiates the command to call the macro letting it know which direction to go.

2 press a,s or d - this chooses one of three possible attacks styles.the script disengages the movement key press then hits all buffs. If they are in cooldown no issue and no time added. Then choose your attack order. group according to cool down once again if the biggy is in cool down it will just spam the lesser attack. When the key is released it makes a set of moves that circles the target in a complimentary direction to what you were doing before. If you release the attack key and shift the character stays there.

 

This will not win the match automatically but you will have made sure to maximize your attacks without looking at the cooldown and eliminate 2-4 keypresses which means your opponent s target lock may be broken quicker but you will still face them. This is what any good player will always try to do, but you will always be buffed and always choose the best attack or evasion not in cooldown while making sure you are continuing to move with fewer keystrokes. It only takes one or two key presses to gain the advantage.

 

How about if you had an evasion or smash attack that throttled the web connection. You have x amount of stored data in your machine that allows you to move within the terrain even if the connection is slowed or broken. Adjust the connection speed and boom you have about 10-20' in gameplay you can move before stopping. No streaming service can exist without adding bufferring for data so to kick somebody off for every variation in speed means a lost combatant every time somebody else turns on netflix that shares a router connection.Think about it.

 

These are overly simplified examples that if done this way would be trackable. I also wonder about why somebody with this level of game and tech skills need to work so hard to succed in an imaginary world.