Scripts in PVP

[Crawelc]

accusing "top rated teams" is stupid and only makes you look like a kid who is pouting because your rated team is about as likely to win as the lakers this season... good players > baddies with macros. but a good player vs a good player w a macro is probably going to go to the guy w the helper. i think this is the only point that matters. ***** cakes.

 

were you drinking or really tired, that last half seems like a contradiction to me

[Pistols-GS]

And LOL for calling razor/logitech keybinds/macros "cheat scripts". Idiots.

 

Lol who said that?

[LenrocNewDawn]

@ MariaD

 

1. A link was provided in the original deleted thread and in this thread that proves that a Macro script like the one we are talking about is real. Hence the shift of the default position .

2. You are over complicating your decision making process . The cost of a PvP med-pack makes the use when bellow 30% health the best action in a ranked war-zone match, even if it's redundant 30% of the time.

But, since I never spent too much time thinking about such a script I grant you that, the management of resources with a very long CD, like the CC breaker, med-packs etc, might be better in player's hands. .

3. I'm glad that, even if our position on the effectiveness of such Macro script is different, we can find common ground in asking for answers from those better situated to provide them (read BW).

[MariaD]

@ MariaD

 

1. A link was provided in the original deleted thread and in this thread that proves that a Macro script like the one we are talking about is real. Hence the shift of the default position .

There was a script somewhere doing something... Is it anything like the OP friends' claim? "All I really had to do was position myself well and the script did the rest. It tore people apart." THAT does not seem to exist. The only person we know who used it (believing the OP here) quit the game. I don't see a proof of existence of a script as described.

 

2. You are over complicating your decision making process . The cost of a PvP med-pack makes the use when bellow 30% health the best action in a ranked war-zone match, even if it's redundant 30% of the time.

But, since I never spent too much time thinking about such a script I grant you that, the management of resources with a very long CD, like the CC breaker, med-packs etc, might be better in player's hands. .

 

I don't see any examples of situations where a script will manage better than a somewhat experienced human. Yes, a computer can react faster, but no, a computer won't know how to react properly. Otherwise we could have such cool boss fights, could we not?

 

The cost of medpacs is not the issue, it's their long CD and once-per-fight use, as you say. I don't think I am doing anything too complicated with my reasoning, either. I am somewhat experienced in analyzing reasoning because of my professional background. But I think complex decision-making of this sort is rather typical of experienced PvPers, whether they can describe it in words like I did or not. There are several other examples in this thread. People talk about similarly complex decision-making processes, and even provide short hypothetical scripts from Teamspeak conversations. Humans are complex critters. That's why PvP is fun.

 

3. I'm glad that, even if our position on the effectiveness of such Macro script is different, we can find common ground in asking for answers from those better situated to provide them (read BW).

Indeed!

Edited March 9, 2013 by MariaD

[Crawelc]

 

I feel it

[Pistols-GS]

I don't see a proof of existence of a script as described.

 

Lol and how would you?

[MariaD]

Lol and how would you?

Several existing scripts have been named in this thread. That's one way to see that something exists: to Google it by name and to find it. The OP said they are investigating on Facebook, but when I followed the link, the description said: "Here is where we call one another ::slur, slur, slur::" so I just left. I guess I will wait for that group to report on their investigation where people don't call one another ::slur::.

 

The burden of proof is always on people who claim existence.

[Caeliux]

The burden of proof is always on people who claim existence.

 

I think we can agree if we start actually talking about this correctly the devs will delete this thread and I assume those that posted links and actually proof infractions will follow.

 

I honesty think some of us are a infraction away when talking about this, fact is Bioware knows this is a mess and can't get control of it just like they can't get control of the hacking and other exploiting going on.

 

Lets not beat around the bush and all agree here we are using alot of restraint talking about this, I know I am.

 

This problem exist because there is no control on it, I am afraid this is something that can't get solved.

[MariaD]

fact is Bioware knows this is a mess and can't get control of it just like they can't get control of the hacking and other exploiting going on.

This is not a fact, it's an opinion. It happens to be an opinion I don't share, either. Facts got proofs.

 

I agree our ability to post proofs in this thread is limited, but there are other means, such as private messages, Reddit, Twitter and so on.

 

Actually, what ARE some appropriate ways to discuss security issues with the forum community? That is something I would very much like BW to clarify.

Edited March 9, 2013 by MariaD

[Crawelc]

Several existing scripts have been named in this thread. That's one way to see that something exists: to Google it by name and to find it. The OP said they are investigating on Facebook, but when I followed the link, the description said: "Here is where we call one another ::slur, slur, slur::" so I just left. I guess I will wait for that group to report on their investigation where people don't call one another ::slur::.

 

The burden of proof is always on people who claim existence.

 

yeah sorry about that FB page description i didnt know it was still there. Bubbles did that back when we first made the page. I will go in and change it right now, but if you would read the thread about this thread you would gain some of the information your looking for.

[Arlanon]

still no yellow post? maybe on monday.

 

if i was a dev i wouldn't waste my time in this pointless and stupid thread

 

but i'm not a dev, so here i am!

 

you suck. learn to play.

[Crawelc]

anyone not a troll actually interested in this should request admission to this FB page. Description has been sanitized for your protection.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/123139474500494/#!/groups/123139474500494/175392669275174/?notif_t=group_comment

[Briggs_Knightly]

So much anger, and still no yellow posts.

 

THEY will never reply to a topic such as this.

 

I'm sure that they are doing what they can to provide a fair arena...

but of course, they are at least partially failing.

[Briggs_Knightly]

This whole thread is silly. As has been stated before, scripting is only really useful for players that wish to rapid level while being AFK or farm credits. That's their typical function. They are not viable in PvP. Think about all the games you've played in the past vs AI NPC bots. Have you ever encountered a single AI capable of beating an actual player on fair terms (same health, same abilities, etc) The answer is NO. There are too many variables in play. This is why bots are given extreme health, damage and other advantages so that the playing field is somewhat leveled.

 

What if the class botting is a sniper and they are given optimal rotations. How would they perform if I open on them with my concealment operative, knock half their health off and then start LOSing back and forth while lobbing grenades and pew pew. Will the bot try to root me or will it simply try casting ambush over and over and over like actual bots do in star wars. What if it does root me and I cleanse the root and begin using the same strategy. What then? A typical player will try and find a means of overcoming my strategy but a bot is literally powerless to stop me..

 

How many times have you died in a fight when only 1 button press away from winning?

Imagine that you had a script running in the background that would automatically press that button for you?

 

It is not about being unbeatable. It is not about being completely automated. It is about making any player have automated reactions that are faster than humanly possible. A bad player gets a small advantage but a good player gets a huge advantage in a competitive situation by pressing the exact button you need at the exact right time. It actually works better for the stronger players who are always on the edge when these instant decisions are needed.

 

It is childish to use these cheats... but these MMOs are filled with childish people.

[MariaD]

How many times have you died in a fight when only 1 button press away from winning?

Imagine that you had a script running in the background that would automatically press that button for you?

 

I highlighted the key word here.

Scripts don't know what is "that" button you needed to press. Maybe a script will guess right, once in a blue moon. Most of the time, it would cause you to die because it pressed the wrong button.

Edited March 9, 2013 by MariaD

[Xerain]

This is not a fact, it's an opinion. It happens to be an opinion I don't share, either. Facts got proofs.

 

I agree our ability to post proofs in this thread is limited, but there are other means, such as private messages, Reddit, Twitter and so on.

 

Actually, what ARE some appropriate ways to discuss security issues with the forum community? That is something I would very much like BW to clarify.

 

Actually it is a fact. If Bioware could of done something about all the hacking and scripts they would have. You think they just refuse to fix the so called problem? No, it's called they don't know how.

[Xerain]

I highlighted the key word here.

Scripts don't know what is "that" button you needed to press. Maybe a script will guess right, once in a blue moon. Most of the time, it would cause you to die because it pressed the wrong button.

 

Scripts do know what that button is, it's another damaging attack obviously and it's going to execute the skill faster than a human can. The bot will always execute it's next ability 1.5 seconds after the other so there's no delay between skills.

 

I guess you don't get it, it's like a big factory replacing a human worker with a machine because of work efficiency. The machine does it faster and with better quality.

[Briggs_Knightly]

I guess this is only a problem on other servers... I can vouch that none of the top guilds on shadowlands uses third kind of thing in pvp. I still.remain quite skeptical, and I sincerely doubt that a bunch of players using automated actions would be as good sd a top pvp guild with proper focus fire and tactics. I didnt even really care if someone did use a program. I'm that confident in my skill and my guilds skill as a pvper. Obviously though, they should be banned.

 

It is a bit funny to me that you would post this...

 

There are only two people that I am 100% sure that they cheat. They are in the same guild.

I know this because they were trying to scrape up enough people to do ranked WZs and invited me.

I joined their voice chat and proceeded to hear one guy thank the other for helping him set up his hax.

 

Don't remember the names as it was a while ago, but...

I will never heal/buff/guard any one from THAT guild ever.

Their reputation to me was killed that day.

[MariaD]

Actually it is a fact. If Bioware could of done something about all the hacking and scripts they would have. You think they just refuse to fix the so called problem? No, it's called they don't know how.

There have been people on my server banned for exploiting. I do see exploits, and then I see them (and people who use them) disappear. From that (and from the fact the game is overall playable and stable) I know BW is doing something - greatly many things - against the hacking and scripting.

 

What neither of us knows, and it would be very nice to hear more from BW, is how to they measure their success. I won't hold my breath on full details, because that would be a security and a business threat at once. But I bet they could tell us some juicy tidbits!

[Xerain]

There have been people on my server banned for exploiting. I do see exploits, and then I see them (and people who use them) disappear. From that (and from the fact the game is overall playable and stable) I know BW is doing something - greatly many things - against the hacking and scripting.

 

What neither of us knows, and it would be very nice to hear more from BW, is how to they measure their success. I won't hold my breath on full details, because that would be a security and a business threat at once. But I bet they could tell us some juicy tidbits!

 

Banning is not equal to stopping the problem.

 

 

Success would be there no hacking going on in the game at all, you know like how many other MMO's have it.

[MariaD]

Scripts do know what that button is, it's another damaging attack obviously and it's going to execute the skill faster than a human can. The bot will always execute it's next ability 1.5 seconds after the other so there's no delay between skills.

 

I guess you don't get it, it's like a big factory replacing a human worker with a machine because of work efficiency. The machine does it faster and with better quality.

 

I hear what you are saying about efficiency and human reaction. I think a factory is a very good analogy to what you describe.

Do you consider PvP to be a mundane, repeatable, on-rails activity like conveyor-belt actions factory workers perform? Or at least, can PvP be "industrialized" into a series of such rote actions?

 

Some people in this thread claim PvP is too complex for that. Others say it's possible. The Facebook page the OP linked said the script has horrible rotations and does not make good decisions (I can believe that). Do you think PvP can be industrialized?

[MariaD]

Banning is not equal to stopping the problem.

 

Success would be there no hacking going on in the game at all, you know like how many other MMO's have it.

I do not know of a single MMO without hacking. I know that some MMOs become undone by hacking, and others keep the problem under control enough to remain stable overall. I consider SWTOR to be in the second category. Do you know of a MMO without hacking?

[Crawelc]

I hear what you are saying about efficiency and human reaction. I think a factory is a very good analogy to what you describe.

Do you consider PvP to be a mundane, repeatable, on-rails activity like conveyor-belt actions factory workers perform? Or at least, can PvP be "industrialized" into a series of such rote actions?

 

Some people in this thread claim PvP is too complex for that. Others say it's possible. The Facebook page the OP linked said the script has horrible rotations and does not make good decisions (I can believe that). Do you think PvP can be industrialized?

 

You are misquoting what was said on facebook, wether deliberately or innocently I dont know. What he said was that the base script had horrible rotations and did not make good decisions, but it could be easily modified and that in the hands of a good player who was able to do most of their own work but run it in the background it would make them unstoppable.

[Xerain]

I do not know of a single MMO without hacking. I know that some MMOs become undone by hacking, and others keep the problem under control enough to remain stable overall. I consider SWTOR to be in the second category. Do you know of a MMO without hacking?

 

Of all the MMO's i've played this is the only one i've seen where people are hacking or cheating in a stupid large amount.

 

Knew people that would bot level in WoW and that's about it. Otherwise no other MMO has had people be so blatant about it.

[MariaD]

You are misquoting what was said on facebook, wether deliberately or innocently I dont know. What he said was that the base script had horrible rotations and did not make good decisions, but it could be easily modified and that in the hands of a good player who was able to do most of their own work but run it in the background it would make them unstoppable.

Thank you for these details. I quoted the parts I thought relevant and factual (horrible rotations, bad decisions), so it was a deliberate choice. A good player disliked the script as it was, I thought.

 

People claim programming this or that is easy, then "this or that" turns out to be vaporware. I do not know if the claim the script could be modified in that way, easily, is true or not. Because it's very easy to underestimate how hard programming something would be.

 

Anyway, that script does not seem to do those things from the original post:

All I really had to do was position myself well and the script did the rest. It tore people apart.

 

I am looking forward to learning more.

Edited March 10, 2013 by MariaD