do you not want to see assassins be horribly and needlessly nerfed?

[RankorSSGS]

you are going to be very, very, very disapointed when you roll a full deception spec in 2.0.

 

true, current tank hybrid are gone. but guess what... new darkness based hybrids are going to be even better in 2.0.

 

This.

[NamikazeNaruto]

You suggest shadow is not ez mode. Xerain says it is ez mode because your rotations are about as complex as focus, and I agree with him. Then you reply that he must be joking because guardians/vanguards have less buttons to push than a shadow, though sent has more.

 

You see how you're correlating buttons with ez mode?

 

I'll make myself more clear then. The primary reason for the difficulty of shadows that I was stating in that post is the amount of things we can do and the amount of roles we can fill. That is why I said Shadows were arguably the class with the highest skill cap. If I was going by pure buttons/rotations I would've said Sentinel has the highest skill cap.

[foxmob]

Since I guard a good node solo I would say that teleporting up to 60m away to get a health pack and having to get back would be pretty counter productive even with force speed.

 

I agree. however, you can guard the node from just about anywhere now. in cw/nc/vs, I would know where to look to surprise a stealther with my own stealthy. however, with phase walk, you could be ANYWHERE. and you would only need to use it if a stealther pops up at your node. cuz if a non-stealth approaches, you would see them coming and start heading back to a reasonable distance on your own.

 

I think it's going to be a great node guarding abil if nothing else.

[Caeliux]

This. In a perfect MMO everyone would be viable at what their roles are meant for but sadly it's not this way .

 

In some ways great players can make a class work, I mean I could play any skill tree in this game and make it work in these Wazones.

 

In my opinion all the tanks trees can work, some have pros and cons, all 3 can peel healers, taunt off damage, and score a huttball.

 

In my opinion all 3 healer classes can heal great, and it seems commando in 2.0 will be even better.

 

I will talk about tanking,

 

Now when it comes to sin/shadow, and this is coming from someone that played shadow in full beta and has played shadow since this game is released, I think all 3 trees can work in any rated scenario.

 

Tank Shadow pre 2.0 is great in full surv gear, the whole misconception of it being gimped is false, I don't remember a time where I felt gimped in full tank gear.

 

Come 2.0 tank shadow will be a baller, a complete monster due to the fact a tank can feel like a tank. I mean in my opinion now they are number 2 far as tanks, might still after 2.0 due to the fact guardian is geting a deflect type move, not to mention still have have 2 leaps, 1 being a intervene.

 

Now will talk about deception/infiltration,

 

I think the middle tree is the biggest scariest burst in the game. The survivability has always been the problem and the misdirection of it being less effective in killing healers isn't something I disagree with.

 

With the right focus and the right premade it works.

 

I think come 2.0, sin deception/infiltration will be the healer killers, no other class will have that kind of burst besides Operatives.

 

Now and finally madness/balance,

 

Of course the tree has been the hybrid used the most, due to forcelift/whirlwind being a instant, force in balance/death field being a internal aoe that crits hard.

 

I think its the best node class in the game due to 3 cc moves, dots, aoe, and stealth.

 

I think alot of the complaining coming for Wakalord and others is the fact hybrid isn't going to be as affective as the present date and that might be true.

 

But sin/shadow will still be a beast, still will ninja cap nodes, will be better in deception/infiltration tree which means amazing healing killing, also tanking with the class will pointed into the right direction.

 

Remember this, the PTS is a rough draft, all these assumptions can be replaced with a different direction come live 2.0, we may be over doing it on alot with the assumptions.

 

I think everything will plan out well, I wouldn't be stressed out on it like some people are.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Caeliux

[ArchangelLBC]

In some ways great players can make a class work, I mean I could play any skill tree in this game and make it work in these Wazones.

 

In my opinion all the tanks trees can work, some have pros and cons, all 3 can peel healers, taunt off damage, and score a huttball.

 

In my opinion all 3 healer classes can heal great, and it seems commando in 2.0 will be even better.

 

I will talk about tanking,

 

Now when it comes to sin/shadow, and this is coming from someone that played shadow in full beta and has played shadow since this game is released, I think all 3 trees can work in any rated scenario.

 

Tank Shadow pre 2.0 is great in full surv gear, the whole misconception of it being gimped is false, I don't remember a time where I felt gimped in full tank gear.

 

Come 2.0 tank shadow will be a baller, a complete monster due to the fact a tank can feel like a tank. I mean in my opinion now they are number 2 far as tanks, might still after 2.0 due to the fact guardian is geting a deflect type move, not to mention still have have 2 leaps, 1 being a intervene.

 

Now will talk about deception/infiltration,

 

I think the middle tree is the biggest scariest burst in the game. The survivability has always been the problem and the misdirection of it being less effective in killing healers isn't something I disagree with.

 

With the right focus and the right premade it works.

 

I think come 2.0, sin deception/infiltration will be the healer killers, no other class will have that kind of burst besides Operatives.

 

Now and finally madness/balance,

 

Of course the tree has been the hybrid used the most, due to forcelift/whirlwind being a instant, force in balance/death field being a internal aoe that crits hard.

 

I think its the best node class in the game due to 3 cc moves, dots, aoe, and stealth.

 

I think alot of the complaining coming for Wakalord and others is the fact hybrid isn't going to be as affective as the present date and that might be true.

 

But sin/shadow will still be a beast, still will ninja cap nodes, will be better in deception/infiltration tree which means amazing healing killing, also tanking with the class will pointed into the right direction.

 

Remember this, the PTS is a rough draft, all these assumptions can be replaced with a different direction come live 2.0, we may be over doing it on alot with the assumptions.

 

I think everything will plan out well, I wouldn't be stressed out on it like some people are.

 

Dude you're completely delusional. Infiltration just had its Burst big time nerfed. We get a guaranteed opener but with the nerf to crit rates it's not going to be anything like reliable. Meanwhile project does less damage, force breach takes so long to setup it might as well not be there, and truly setting up your burst requires you to basically fill their resolve bar (Spinning Kick out of stealth to get a SS proc, then Low Slash to do it again).

 

The Hybrid Waka is complaining about losing didn't even take Instant Whirlwind. It was a pure damage spec. Face it, between the crit nerf and the changes to CS and FB, Infiltration's burst is pretty much gone outside of some luck (what are you gonna do? use Force Potency to get a crit on spinning kick to get 9% extra crit to Shadow Strike? That's still only about a 29% crit chance buffed unless you abandon power completely).

 

Only thing we're probably gonna be doing in 2.0 is tanking and node guarding, and that first probably only in PVE.

[Caeliux]

Dude you're completely delusional. Infiltration just had its Burst big time nerfed. We get a guaranteed opener but with the nerf to crit rates it's not going to be anything like reliable. Meanwhile project does less damage, force breach takes so long to setup it might as well not be there, and truly setting up your burst requires you to basically fill their resolve bar (Spinning Kick out of stealth to get a SS proc, then Low Slash to do it again).

 

The Hybrid Waka is complaining about losing didn't even take Instant Whirlwind. It was a pure damage spec. Face it, between the crit nerf and the changes to CS and FB, Infiltration's burst is pretty much gone outside of some luck (what are you gonna do? use Force Potency to get a crit on spinning kick to get 9% extra crit to Shadow Strike? That's still only about a 29% crit chance buffed unless you abandon power completely).

 

Only thing we're probably gonna be doing in 2.0 is tanking and node guarding, and that first probably only in PVE.

 

I have a feeling your going to be completely wrong, and going to see infiltration/deception bursting people down and staying alive alot longer.

 

What do I mean stay alive alot longer?

 

*Battle Readiness now additionally increases the chance to trigger Saber Charges by 35% and now heals players for 15% of max health when used.

 

*A new ability, Phase Walk, has been added. Phase Walk allows the Shadow to place a mark that can be instantly returned to at a later time, after which Phase Walk goes on cooldown. This ability is usable in stealth mode and trainable at level 51.

 

Them 2 moves right there ^ just added the biggest burst in the game more surviveability.

 

You say less damage huh, hmm.

 

*Shadow Technique can now only trigger once every 4.5 seconds and deals significantly more damage.

 

The project doing less damage is for a reason, it will make shadow technique proc more, meaning more damage coming out.

 

*Clairvoyant Slash no longer increases the damage dealt by Project. Instead, this ability stacks up to two times and builds Clairvoyance, which gives Project a 50% chance per stack to automatically trigger Shadow Technique and bypass its rate limit.

 

Also.

 

*Force Breach (Force Technique) no longer has a cooldown. Force Breach (Combat Technique) now has a 6 second cooldown. Force Breach (Shadow Technique) has been redesigned. This ability is now only usable with one or more Breaching Shadows, which builds when Shadow Technique triggers. Force Breach (Shadow Technique) deals more damage per Breaching Shadow consumed. Force Breach (Shadow Technique) no longer has a cooldown.

 

If you understand what is going on, Shadow is a build up of damage which will make it more useful and will proc out more damage instead of the whole set up it currrently has.

 

It will be a different way to play it, and I think it will become more dangerous come 2.0 with the added surviveability.

 

 

Yea I'm delusional, I actually know how to read the changes coming, the bs about less damage is false and complete nonsense.

 

As well with the added expertise, level capp, new gear, a level 55 Infiltration sounds really scary.

 

Shadow dps will be wonderful in the Infiltration spec come 2.0.

[Eggsalicious]

So many bad players posting bitter rants.

 

Assassins will recover from the nerfs, but you'll all still be bad.

 

~Eggs

Edited February 26, 2013 by Eggsalicious

[Calvin_Mago]

What good is breaking even on voltaic slash / surging charge when you're in a crit based class that just lost a third of its crit?

 

Meanwhile, every other DPS class just got massive buffs.

[Soull]

lol at all these lemmings that didn't even read the OP, and state that sins/shadows deserve these nerfs. they aren't even nerfing darkness/kinetic, which is what all you baddies claim is OP (hmmm, OP meaning original post and overpowered, i hope i'm not confusing people:P) oh noes, you're taking away maul/shadow strike from tank specs. no biggie, most of the time it doesn't even proc (its only 10% with 1 point in the talent) so i'll get by without it.

[ArchangelLBC]

I have a feeling your going to be completely wrong, and going to see infiltration/deception bursting people down and staying alive alot longer.

 

What do I mean stay alive alot longer?

 

*Battle Readiness now additionally increases the chance to trigger Saber Charges by 35% and now heals players for 15% of max health when used.

 

*A new ability, Phase Walk, has been added. Phase Walk allows the Shadow to place a mark that can be instantly returned to at a later time, after which Phase Walk goes on cooldown. This ability is usable in stealth mode and trainable at level 51.

 

Them 2 moves right there ^ just added the biggest burst in the game more surviveability.

 

You say less damage huh, hmm.

 

*Shadow Technique can now only trigger once every 4.5 seconds and deals significantly more damage.

 

The project doing less damage is for a reason, it will make shadow technique proc more, meaning more damage coming out.

 

*Clairvoyant Slash no longer increases the damage dealt by Project. Instead, this ability stacks up to two times and builds Clairvoyance, which gives Project a 50% chance per stack to automatically trigger Shadow Technique and bypass its rate limit.

 

Also.

 

*Force Breach (Force Technique) no longer has a cooldown. Force Breach (Combat Technique) now has a 6 second cooldown. Force Breach (Shadow Technique) has been redesigned. This ability is now only usable with one or more Breaching Shadows, which builds when Shadow Technique triggers. Force Breach (Shadow Technique) deals more damage per Breaching Shadow consumed. Force Breach (Shadow Technique) no longer has a cooldown.

 

If you understand what is going on, Shadow is a build up of damage which will make it more useful and will proc out more damage instead of the whole set up it currrently has.

 

It will be a different way to play it, and I think it will become more dangerous come 2.0 with the added surviveability.

 

 

Yea I'm delusional, I actually know how to read the changes coming, the bs about less damage is false and complete nonsense.

 

As well with the added expertise, level capp, new gear, a level 55 Infiltration sounds really scary.

 

Shadow dps will be wonderful in the Infiltration spec come 2.0.

 

 

Like I said, delusional. I read the changes, and I also noted the much lower crit rating we're seeing. I also know that unlike live where Force Breach can still do good damage without all 5 stacks of the buff, on the PTS using it on anything less than 3 stacks is a waste of force. For a front loaded burst class that makes it useless in PVP.

 

15% heal on battle readiness is nice, phase walk is nice, but that's not helping us burst down things quicker, and make no doubt, our burst took a big hit. The lower crit rate alone would have ensured that. The change to CS is just the icing on a particularly bad tasting cake.

 

But hey feel free to prove me wrong. I'll be on the PTS and in warzones as soon as they figure out how to unbork bolster.

[MotorCityMan]

It would be one thing if y'all were playing on live test and making suggestions. But as it is, y'all are just speculating how bad you are going to have it and typing out QQ posts. Meh

[Sylvatica]

Yes obviously Waka is not the only good Assassin pvper around. He just happens to be only one of the 2(other being Shinarika), whom have made meaningful contributions to the class, by putting up detailed and educated guides on how to play it well, thus building up the community in the process. What have you done for the community other than your ridiculous post?

 

And no, I'm not on The Bastion. I play on the Harbinger.

 

couldn't said it better! I've learned so much from both of their guides! Atleast they are trying to be 'productive' =)

[HollowVamp]

Our two dps trees, Infiltration/Deception and Balance/Madness weren't just nerfed, they were utterly destroyed. How do you feel a nerf of this magnitude is justified? If anything, this just assures that pretty much every Assassin you see will be a darkness Assassin. Madness Force Regeneration was utterly annihalated. Deception's Surging Charge and Voltaic Slash was destroyed, not to mention they effectively killed a lot of our hybrids by moving Infiltration Tactics up to the fourth tier. Meanwhile our strongest tree, Darkness, is going to be as strong as ever.

.

 

Sometimes it seems that BW isn't always looking directly to pvp, While decept will probably be gimp in pvp if it stays as is, their sustained dps went way up, albeit that's pretty much pve only oriented, it has just been seeming that the first pts patch was to get dps closer together (maras still ahead of course) maybe coming updates will start tweaking pvp? who knows, only time will tell

Edited February 26, 2013 by HollowVamp

[ArchangelLBC]

It would be one thing if y'all were playing on live test and making suggestions. But as it is, y'all are just speculating how bad you are going to have it and typing out QQ posts. Meh

 

It'd be one thing if it were possible to meaningfully test the changes in an actual warzone environment without some guy with 800k health going around one-shotting everyone.

 

Still there's a lot you can learn by dueling. I have a 55 shadow on the PTS. Change to front load burst in any kind of Infil spec is pretty noticeable just because of the crit rate nerf.

[Caeliux]

Still there's a lot you can learn by dueling. I have a 55 shadow on the PTS. Change to front load burst in any kind of Infil spec is pretty noticeable just because of the crit rate nerf.

 

Your going by dueling and assumptions, you can't notice anything by dueling on a PTS.

 

Remember PTS is buged, so what you are seeing is not live 2.0.

 

Your reading into dueling and arguing with someone that understands shadow infiltration, something I have played since beta.

 

The spec is going to be alot better with damage, and staying alive longer.

 

Trust me, stop with the mathematical upload burst damage assumption.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Caeliux

[Caeliux]

Yes obviously Waka is not the only good Assassin pvper around. He just happens to be only one of the 2(other being Shinarika), whom have made meaningful contributions to the class, by putting up detailed and educated guides on how to play it well, thus building up the community in the process.

 

Shinarika is amazing, and I do mean amazing.

 

I have not seen any vids coming from Waka, so comparing both of them is like comparing Bugs Bunny and Joe the Rabbit, only one has been seen on tv.

 

Waka is another forums blogger where Shinarika really went the length.

 

Also I question any post by anyone, and I do mean anyone that panics or starts rabbling when a PTS isn't live, comments like,

The changes currently on the 2.0 PTS have completely and utterly destroyed assassin's viability for anything other than node guarding. Help improve the state of this games' pvp and keep this thread on the first page so it catches the attention of the devs

 

Don't suit me and its unprofessional from a good player, and it's premature assumptions.

 

Just because thats what he does in his guild comp, dont mean it needs to be done.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Caeliux

[cycao]

Yes obviously Waka is not the only good Assassin pvper around. He just happens to be only one of the 2(other being Shinarika), whom have made meaningful contributions to the class, by putting up detailed and educated guides on how to play it well, thus building up the community in the process. What have you done for the community other than your ridiculous post?

 

And no, I'm not on The Bastion. I play on the Harbinger.

 

In all honesty, anyone could make an in depth guide regarding any class/spec and contribute to their respected community, they could however be the worst player in the world and that doesn't give anyone merit whatsoever.

[Carter_Mathis]

In all honesty, anyone could make an in depth guide regarding any class/spec and contribute to their respected community, they could however be the worst player in the world and that doesn't give anyone merit whatsoever.

 

Also, Shin tended to not post the videos of their premades leaving the wz's they were losing, getting killed 1v1, or getting stepped on by Uncensored in ranked. When you control the information in your outgoing videos, you can make yourself look amazing

[ArchangelLBC]

Your going by dueling and assumptions, you can't notice anything by dueling on a PTS.

 

Remember PTS is buged, so what you are seeing is not live 2.0.

 

Your reading into dueling and arguing with someone that understands shadow infiltration, something I have played since beta.

 

The spec is going to be alot better with damage, and staying alive longer.

 

Trust me, stop with the mathematical upload burst damage assumption.

 

Considering you mentioned things like taking nodes, dueling is absolutely something which can give a good indicator since alot of our encouters which are gamechanging are 1v1 encounters, and our ability to solo take a node when sap capping isn't a possibility is very dependent on upfront burst. I don't have to math it out (even though mathing it out shows the lack of upfront burst damage). I can go on the PTS right now and see how much front loaded burst I have.

 

Also why should I trust you? Because you've played the spec since beta? If Waka is joe the rabbit what does that make you? I should trust you because you FEEL like our damage is going to be a lot better? Please post some numbers (I know I'll be going into some extensive testing on the PTS vis a vis front loaded burst, both by dueling and on an ops dummy).

 

You say we're going to be a lot better on damage and survivability? Ok. Prove it. The damage thing is easy enough to actually go do. You won't get much more optimal than beating up on a training dummy. You aren't bugged on the Gav, and since you've been playing the spec since beta you probably have a lot more insight into how to maximize our damage. Survivability is a harder thing to test and while I agree it should overall be better, that's not really what I'm concerned with when it comes to infiltration.

 

I just don't see any big front loaded burst coming without having to blow force potency and battle readiness, and that does not a reliable stealth ganker make.

Edited February 26, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[CharterMonkKent]

I did quite a bit of testing last night. For PvP there is no viable DPS spec for sin/shadow in 2.0. By viable I mean compared to what we have currently.

 

My conclusions...

 

This hybrid attempt..

 

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/jedi-shadow/234/?build=020302031100000000000000000000000322230021112032001022000000000003020000000000000000000000000000&ver=20

 

-My attempt with this spec was a waste. It's not really force management that's the problem, although it's pretty terrible. There isn't enough sustained damage for the spec to be viable. In duels (which I did ok in when procs went my way), I was using my CCs to regain force and wait for my shadow strike proc 10second cooldown to run out. There just isnt enough damage/variation with the three attacks in this spec, project, double strike, shadow strike. It's garbage.

 

-Full infiltration/deception does the most damage but it's scaled down quite a bit from what we are used too. Concealment oper flat out destroys this spec. It's not even close to a comparison with burst anymore. I don't know what this spec would be used for, I can't even see it being worthwhile in regs.

 

-Full balance/madness is terrible since there really isn't any (reasonable) way to keep pressure on a target after throwing down dots. Sure FiB/Deathfield hits hard now (crits hit the lvl 55 dummy for 4.5-5.1K in my current pvp gear), but the cooldown is too long for this to be considered pressure.

 

-The only spec I found reasonable (if you can call it that) as dps was full tank tree in DPS gear. Linked below. This is the only viable node guard left for Shadow/Sin (my opinion). It requires a tank off-hand (defense matters in this spec) and you basically win fights by outlasting/cc'ing/annoying/self-healing people to death. Attacks hit hard enough to matter and the face to face shadow strike is not that bad and it's an easy proc. Stealth level is very high in this spec and etc etc. For now this will be my DPS spec, although as is I don't plan on playing my shadow much when 2.0 goes live. I don't like node guarding and I feel I (or anyone) would be a better node guard on an oper. Either as full heals (especially with the buffs to healing) or hybrid heals.

 

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-...0000000&ver=20

[iesnbold]

Gotta love all those people posting to say the nerf to assassins DPS are deserved. I guess they were tired of all those Deception/Madness assassin filling RWZs and taking marauder's and PTs spots... Edited February 26, 2013 by iesnbold

[RankorSSGS]

Shinarika is amazing, and I do mean amazing.

 

I have not seen any vids coming from Waka, so comparing both of them is like comparing Bugs Bunny and Joe the Rabbit, only one has been seen on tv.

 

Waka is another forums blogger where Shinarika really went the length.

 

 

http://www.twitch.tv/wifileague/videos

 

There's Waka's livestream with his dueling guides, and hours upon hours of video footage proving his skill. And its not heavily edited like the stuff you see on youtube, that's raw gameplay. Forum blogger eh? Coming from you that's a joke, especially since even your forum posts are a waste of space. Do the world a favor and stop posting.

Edited February 26, 2013 by RankorSSGS

[ArchangelLBC]

I did quite a bit of testing last night. For PvP there is no viable DPS spec for sin/shadow in 2.0. By viable I mean compared to what we have currently.

 

My conclusions...

 

This hybrid attempt..

 

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/jedi-shadow/234/?build=020302031100000000000000000000000322230021112032001022000000000003020000000000000000000000000000&ver=20

 

-My attempt with this spec was a waste. It's not really force management that's the problem, although it's pretty terrible. There isn't enough sustained damage for the spec to be viable. In duels (which I did ok in when procs went my way), I was using my CCs to regain force and wait for my shadow strike proc 10second cooldown to run out. There just isnt enough damage/variation with the three attacks in this spec, project, double strike, shadow strike. It's garbage.

 

-Full infiltration/deception does the most damage but it's scaled down quite a bit from what we are used too. Concealment oper flat out destroys this spec. It's not even close to a comparison with burst anymore. I don't know what this spec would be used for, I can't even see it being worthwhile in regs.

 

-Full balance/madness is terrible since there really isn't any (reasonable) way to keep pressure on a target after throwing down dots. Sure FiB/Deathfield hits hard now (crits hit the lvl 55 dummy for 4.5-5.1K in my current pvp gear), but the cooldown is too long for this to be considered pressure.

 

-The only spec I found reasonable (if you can call it that) as dps was full tank tree in DPS gear. Linked below. This is the only viable node guard left for Shadow/Sin (my opinion). It requires a tank off-hand (defense matters in this spec) and you basically win fights by outlasting/cc'ing/annoying/self-healing people to death. Attacks hit hard enough to matter and the face to face shadow strike is not that bad and it's an easy proc. Stealth level is very high in this spec and etc etc. For now this will be my DPS spec, although as is I don't plan on playing my shadow much when 2.0 goes live. I don't like node guarding and I feel I (or anyone) would be a better node guard on an oper. Either as full heals (especially with the buffs to healing) or hybrid heals.

 

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-...0000000&ver=20

 

 

There are times when I hate being right. I really hope we're missing something but damn damn damn.

[CharterMonkKent]

There are times when I hate being right. I really hope we're missing something but damn damn damn.

 

I know. Sigh. I really enjoy my shadow right now. I wouldn't call Sin/Shadow terrible with these changes (tank tree looks sexier than pre 2.0). But it's toned down and clunky. Maybe that's the best way to put it, sin/shadow DPS went from being a smooth operator to being a clunky one.

[Kurvv]

In some ways great players can make a class work, I mean I could play any skill tree in this game and make it work in these Wazones.

 

lol nice little pat on the back you gave yourself there.

You must be the greatest player no one's ever heard of.