Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

[LadyKulvax]

Well, a ship graveyard to only on contestant? If Traya can move around freely, G0-T0 can as well. And we have established that with small ship, G0-T0 could easily land on Malachor. If Traya leads the invasion, she would most likely dies when the MSG goes off. If G0-T0 dies from it, on a different ship, than Traya who may or may not be on the same ship, will also die.

 

How do you think Revan and the Exile used it? they maintained a safe distance from it.

 

Malachor V is a gravity well surrounded by a ship graveyard, it's also actually made out of the core of a moon.

 

Also, G0-T0 doesn't know this is happening, it's kind of the point, distract him with other events, usual assassination tactics and then launch a blockade and wipe out half the sector.

[Warren-Stride]

Remember, she used the Exile to destroy the force, that was her plan, use the Exile's strong ability to create connections, spread it to many people across her journey, then kill herself or the Exile to finish the job, it would've devastated the galaxy itself.

 

Uhhh.....

 

If you're going to argue that Traya's motivation is to wound the Force, you need to do more research.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Traya

Traya then returned to Malachor V, where she intended to sacrifice herself to open up the larger wound in the Force in order to destroy it.

 

Traya was actually rather suicidal. During the last fight on Malachor vs. the Exile, Traya actually ASKED to be killed. The only thing keeping Traya from killing herself to end the Force is that she wanted closure with the Exile, because Traya "truely loved" the Exile.

 

So actually, without the Exile's existance, Traya might just commit suicide, seeing as she wants to end the Force so badly like you say, and then G0-T0 wins the Kaggath by default, Yay.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Canino]

How do you think Revan and the Exile used it? they maintained a safe distance from it.

 

Malachor V is a gravity well surrounded by a ship graveyard, it's also actually made out of the core of a moon.

 

Also, G0-T0 doesn't know this is happening, it's kind of the point, distract him with other events, usual assassination tactics and then launch a blockade and wipe out half the sector.

 

Distracting him won't work. He is a droid, create to calculate everything at once. He sends Hk's out to kill Traya, while more investigate the MSG, while more do this..... Plus BH's, plus his army, plus the underworld. Not much gets by him.

[LadyKulvax]

Uhhh.....

 

If you're going to argue that Traya's motivation is to wound the Force, you need to do more research.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Traya

 

 

Traya was actually rather suicidal. During the last fight on Malachor vs. the Exile, Traya actually ASKED to be killed. The only thing keeping Traya from killing herself to end the Force is that she wanted closure with the Exile, because Traya "truely loved" the Exile.

 

So actually, without the Exile's existance, Traya might just commit suicide, seeing as she wants to end the Force so badly like you say, and then G0-T0 wins the Kaggath by default, Yay.

 

Her intention was to kill the force, she was going to use her bond with the Exile to fulfil this, the Exile's journey took her to multiple planets, where she made multiple connections, she also removed the most powerful of the force users that were known to Traya, then Traya made her final move.

 

She isn't going to do jack all by killing herself, where'd you get that idea, she was using her bond with the Exile, to kill the Exile as well and via the Exile, many people she'd made connections with, opening up larger wounds in the force is just another bonus to this, creating more wounds and echos, was how she would kill the force itself.

 

That was her plan, my suggestion fits very nicely with this as well.

[LadyKulvax]

Distracting him won't work. He is a droid, create to calculate everything at once. He sends Hk's out to kill Traya, while more investigate the MSG, while more do this..... Plus BH's, plus his army, plus the underworld. Not much gets by him.

 

Again, you haven't given me any logical reason to believe G0-T0 can do anything like this.

 

This is Malachor V, this is also Traya's powerbase, they aren't going to get very far trying to assassinate the best assassins in the galaxy, the Sith.

 

Make no mistake about it, no one makes a greater assassin than a Sith that uses deception and lightning fast strikes to incapacitate their opponents.

[Canino]

Again, you haven't given me any logical reason to believe G0-T0 can do anything like this.

 

This is Malachor V, this is also Traya's powerbase, they aren't going to get very far trying to assassinate the best assassins in the galaxy, the Sith.

 

Make no mistake about it, no one makes a greater assassin than a Sith that uses deception and lightning fast strikes to incapacitate their opponents.

 

Yet G0-T0 had programmed his droids to capture any force user he found. G0-T0 understand force users. If he ever needs knew information, just download something. Such information is out there. You are also being very bias. Malachor V is Traya's powerbase. G0-T0's is Nar Shaddaa. And the assassins will be killing Traya.... And I have a question for you. How are assassins going to be on Malachor while blockading Nar Shaddaa? They will need every person they can get if they want to win. Which leaves Malachor open to attack.

[LadyKulvax]

Yet G0-T0 had programmed his droids to capture any force user he found. G0-T0 understand force users. If he ever needs knew information, just download something. Such information is out there. You are also being very bias. Malachor V is Traya's powerbase. G0-T0's is Nar Shaddaa. And the assassins will be killing Traya.... And I have a question for you. How are assassins going to be on Malachor while blockading Nar Shaddaa? They will need every person they can get if they want to win. Which leaves Malachor open to attack.

 

I don't think you realise just how much better the Sith fleet is compared to the criminal cartels', the interdictors were as good as Imperial class star destroyers, IIRC, they also had gravity well generators, Traya is not going to have to send all her assassins, considering that she still had all her own assassins and Sion's AFTER Nihilus' fleet botched at Telos IV and Dxun, the Interdictors under Malak and the Leviathan completely stopped the criminal elements of Taris, which were vast and led by no less than the Exchange.

 

Also, I think you are VASTLY underestimating Traya's own forces, she has Sith Lords, Sith marauders, Dark jedi and many more at her disposal, not just lowly assassins.

 

Also, the Jedi Order itself knew nothing about the Sith and so did G0-T0 himself when you asked him on his Yacht, so you are wrong.

 

I am not being biased at all, I am using logic to make my argument.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I still am calling BS that an Interdictor is on par with an ISD, cause looking at the specs it doesn't show at all. It has to be some mistake on the page. Edited March 6, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[LadyKulvax]

I still am calling BS that an Interdictor is on par with an ISD, cause looking at the specs it doesn't show at all.

 

I agree, but canon is canon.

[Warren-Stride]

I agree, but canon is canon.

 

So much for using logic...

[Wolfninjajedi]

I agree, but canon is canon.

 

Is there evidence supporting it? Or are we just going by the page? Cause wiki's can be edited by anyone, and looking at it, it seemed someone made a very poor edit.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[LadyKulvax]

Is there evidence supporting it? Or are we just going by the page? Cause wiki's can be edited by anyone.

 

There are a few If I remember, I think the main one made the statement that these interdictors were really powerful ships because of the Star Forge, though I'm fuzzy on it, I can try and find out the source if you like.

[Ventessel]

There's no reason for Traya to send her fleet into Nar Shadaa before she's ready to seize G0-T0. What's to prevent her spies/assassins from just hanging out on Nar Shadaa and gathering intel on G0-T0 the way the Exile did, and finding out that the best way to lure him out would be to smuggle forces onboard a freighter labelled as Vogga's. After, that's very similar to how the Sith Assassins took out the Harbinger. So it stands to reason that this is a ploy they'd be quite good at executing.

 

Once G0-T0's freighter is compromised, bring in the fleet and prevent escape with gravity well generators. Then glass the Jekk Jekk Tar with some fighters and a few blasts from orbit, and before the smugglers can get antsy about not being able to leave the planet, finish blasting G0-T0's yacht and all the escape pods. Then leave.

[Canino]

I don't think you realise just how much better the Sith fleet is compared to the criminal cartels', the interdictors were as good as Imperial class star destroyers, IIRC, they also had gravity well generators, Traya is not going to have to send all her assassins, considering that she still had all her own assassins and Sion's AFTER Nihilus' fleet botched at Telos IV and Dxun, the Interdictors under Malak and the Leviathan completely stopped the criminal elements of Taris, which were vast and led by no less than the Exchange.

 

Also, I think you are VASTLY underestimating Traya's own forces, she has Sith Lords, Sith marauders, Dark jedi and many more at her disposal, not just lowly assassins.

 

Also, the Jedi Order itself knew nothing about the Sith and so did G0-T0 himself when you asked him on his Yacht, so you are wrong.

 

I am not being biased at all, I am using logic to make my argument.

 

Taris is true enough, but I am not wrong. From Wookiepedia- "loyal to him and ready to bring any Jedi or Sith that they find to him as per their programmed orders." He knew enough about the Sith and Jedi to program his army to capture and or destroy them. And I am still calling bias. You claim that G0-T0 cannot not touch Traya's base, although many scenarios have been posted to call BS on that. Yet, Traya can get to G0-T0, and better yet, find him. G0-T0 will know when Traya leaves. Why? He will have scouts. As scenarios have suggested, G0-T0 has the means to do so, and I see no reason why he wouldn't.

 

In your logic, you also have failed to mention any BH, or smugglers, as well as all the droids present on Nar Shadda under G0-T0's control as well as the Hk's roaming the galaxy under his control. You also have no time estimate for when the MSG would be able to be moved. In this time, do you suppose G0-T0 will sit and do nothing. He will be proactive, and send assassinations, and scouts to investigate Malachor. He will produce more HK's, he will buys more ships, he will hire more troops, etc. For all we know, he may purchase a gravity well projector (something very feasible) and go to Malachor himself to make sure no ships can leave.

 

We also have to consider that G0-T0 is a droid that calculates everything. Would you not agree that in sometime, he will eventually consider that Traya will do this? He will also form a plan to defeat such a threat. Perhaps orbital bombardment from BHs and mercs? Quite feasible, and with probes at the MSG, telling exactly where to bomb. With his army, he could also send droids to Dxun, to sabotage Traya's efforts. He could also place organics on distant planets to draw assassins and Sith to them to investigate.

 

All of this could be accomplished relatively quickly- especially if Traya is busy trying to move the MSG. Yes, she has an army that could do similar things, but that only leaves Traya open to more assassinations attempts as there are less guards to sneak past/kill/alarm Traya.

 

P.S. Being a tad harsh, but I am just justifying my actions.

 

EDIT: Ventessel, G0-T0 wanted to be found by the Exile. That is really the only reason that he was found in the first place. Also, as per Kaggath rules, Vogga is non existent in the debate.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Canino

[Warren-Stride]

She isn't going to do jack all by killing herself, where'd you get that idea, she was using her bond with the Exile, to kill the Exile as well and via the Exile, many people she'd made connections with, opening up larger wounds in the force is just another bonus to this, creating more wounds and echos, was how she would kill the force itself.

 

 

No, no, what Traya's plan was, was to get the Exile to kill her. The apprentice must kill the master.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoyPKWN1BEE

 

Go to 4:40

 

Traya wanted the Exile to kill her. Only by striking her down would the Force be destroyed. She never wanted the Exile to die. She wanted to die herself, by the Exile's hand. However, seeing as the Exile did not kill her, Traya's death did not end in the death of the Force.

 

Without the Exile's existance, Traya has no way to end the Force.

 

ALSO: IMPORTANT

 

See here for why Traya won't use MSG

 

This is pre-betrayal Traya.

 

Traya was betrayed by Sion/Nilius. THAT'S when she wanted to wound the Force. Before, at the height of her power, Traya studyed the force a ton. She taught the Trayus Academy and all the Sith there. Only when she was stripped of her connection to the Force did she seek to destroy it. So therefor, Traya would actually NOT WANT TO use the MSG on Nar Shaddaa, because she does not want to wound the Force as she is in this Kaggath.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[GarfieldJL]

If we assume G0-T0 considers Traya to be a threat to the survival of the Republic, then he's not going to be interested in capturing her, he'd be out to "delete" her.

 

I think it should also be pointed out that while the Gand in the Jekk Jekk Tarr got beaten into the ground, it's unlikely that all the Gand of that nest would be that easy to beat.

 

Additionally it appears G0-T0 may actually have a way to track down Traya...

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gand

 

She's not the only one that can potentially see into the future...

Edited March 6, 2013 by GarfieldJL

[Wolfninjajedi]

There are a few If I remember, I think the main one made the statement that these interdictors were really powerful ships because of the Star Forge, though I'm fuzzy on it, I can try and find out the source if you like.

 

Please do, cause it just doesn't seem to add up given the different specifications.

[Warren-Stride]

There's no reason for Traya to send her fleet into Nar Shadaa before she's ready to seize G0-T0. What's to prevent her spies/assassins from just hanging out on Nar Shadaa and gathering intel on G0-T0 the way the Exile did, and finding out that the best way to lure him out would be to smuggle forces onboard a freighter labelled as Vogga's. After, that's very similar to how the Sith Assassins took out the Harbinger. So it stands to reason that this is a ploy they'd be quite good at executing.

 

1.) Vogga doesn't exist

2.) G0-T0 will go dead-silent as soon as he's in a full out war with a Sith Lord. Kinda a given.

3.) G0-T0's ship has plenty of defenses

4.) G0-T0 can just as easily stealth and escape on the assassins ship when they think they've killed him because the MK-1 droids look exactly like him.

[GarfieldJL]

Please do, cause it just doesn't seem to add up given the different specifications.

 

You do realize that if she used the mass shadow generator and G0-T0 manages to escape Nar Shadda's destruction, that Traya will have just given G0-T0 an army.

 

Fear is one thing, but Traya would turn fear of getting killed into a rage of wanting vengence on her. Not every smuggler or bounty hunter is on Nar Shadda, but it's rather likely that many of them have been to Nar Shadda, and may also know people whom died due to her madness.

[LadyKulvax]

Please do, cause it just doesn't seem to add up given the different specifications.

 

The New Essential Guide to Weapons and technology, pg.22.

 

As for the rest of the post, we'll have to continue our own debate tomorrow, it's 1am here, I need to sleep as I am very tired.

 

But Warren excellent point about Traya's timeline, I had forgotten that.

 

Other pro-Traya supporters, please continue our debate.

Edited March 6, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Canino]

If we assume G0-T0 considers Traya to be a threat to the survival of the Republic, then he's not going to be interested in capturing her, he'd be out to "delete" her.

 

I think it should also be pointed out that while the Gand in the Jekk Jekk Tarr got beaten into the ground, it's unlikely that all the Gand of that nest would be that easy to beat.

 

Additionally it appears G0-T0 may actually have a way to track down Traya...

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gand

 

She's not the only one that can potentially see into the future...

Nice find! Never even thought of that. And way to rally G0-T0 supporters!!!!

[Wolfninjajedi]

The New Essential Guide to Weapons and technology, pg.22.

.

 

Which is on the same page...I can't read it, cause I don't have the book...but I still am skeptical on this there has to been some words that got mixed up or something.

 

You do realize that if she used the mass shadow generator and G0-T0 manages to escape Nar Shadda's destruction, that Traya will have just given G0-T0 an army.

 

Fear is one thing, but Traya would turn fear of getting killed into a rage of wanting vengence on her. Not every smuggler or bounty hunter is on Nar Shadda, but it's rather likely that many of them have been to Nar Shadda, and may also know people whom died due to her madness.

 

This has to do with what of what I am trying to figure out?

Edited March 6, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[GarfieldJL]

Nice find! Never even thought of that. And way to rally G0-T0 supporters!!!!

 

Which also raises the possibility that G0-T0 might not even be on Nar Shadda when Traya blows up the moon.

[Warren-Stride]

Which also raises the possibility that G0-T0 might not even be on Nar Shadda when Traya blows up the moon.

 

She won't because she doesn't want to create a wound in the Force, seeing as she uses it and pretty much adores it (it's how she sees, after all) at this time. End of story.

[Ventessel]

Distracting him won't work. He is a droid, create to calculate everything at once. He sends Hk's out to kill Traya, while more investigate the MSG, while more do this..... Plus BH's, plus his army, plus the underworld. Not much gets by him.

 

G0-T0 isn't omniscient, he can't "calculate everything at once". He is designed to make economic calculations based on known variables, he's not very good at extrapolating without information. And he has almost no information on Jedi/Force users, as he expressed to the Exile. The motivations and abilities of Force users are fairly mysterious to him. He wants to find Jedi, but only because his analyses indicate that Force users have significant impact on galactic stability. His forces are not trained or prepared to capture force users, just because he's posted a bounty for Jedi doesn't mean his bounty hunters will be better prepared to face them.

 

If anything, Force users have been made even more mysterious by their increasing scarcity in the galaxy. His droids are not specifically outfitted to fight against Sith, anymore than they're outfitted to fight anything else.

 

Which is on the same page...I can't read it, cause I don't have the book...but I still am skeptical on this there has to been some words that got mixed up or something.

I don't think it's really relevant as to exact technical specifications of the Interdictor cruisers. The fact of the matter is, they're among the best warships in the time period, and G0-T0 doesn't have anything that can really make a dent in the Sith Warfleet.

 

There's also nothing to prevent Traya from using the Interdictors defensively. By setting up gravity well generators around Malachor V, she would force any scouts from G0-T0 to exit hyperspace far from the planet, making it easy to intercept and destroy them before they have a chance to land. This would blind G0-T0 to the movements of Traya's forces and also make it considerably harder for any assassins to land on the planet.