Stuns are killing PvP

[Zunayson]

Stuns cannot kill because even if PvP was naked with 0 expertise against 8 sorcs using 8 electrocutes, the damage still wouldn't be enough even if they were BiS and critted. The damage coming afterwards is what kills, no the stuns.

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

I see nothing wrong with stuns and after reading all the related threads I am convinced the issue is length of stun, length of stun/break cooldown and damage taken while stunned.

 

It's the fact that due to the variable cool downs they're abused to hell, used, as a poster above said, to hold you in place while you're pummeled. I would even (grudgingly) accept every class having a stun if it was targeted because at least then it would be more random. It's AOE stuns that disable your team leading to players dropping out in frustration which removes any chance of winning. A good start would be an increase in cool down on AOE Stuns and removing from Marauder/Sentinels and replacing with a targeted stun so they can still use their heavy hitting abilities on a single target rather than disable and wipe out entire teams in seconds.

[mulzii]

problem is, in every mmo i've ever played (and i've played quite a few), stuns were used as crowd control. eg. stun one/2 mobs, kill the 3rd, move to the next, etc. It was primarly used to control multiple mobs/players. you know, crowd control. Its really a 'WoW mentality. Stand in front of a mob, beat it down, if it moves, hold it in place with a cc.

 

In pvp, players are moving all over the place, and most people dont like to chase kiters, due to them being conditioned to stand in one place and beat on things. In swtor, cc's are used offensively. If i had to estimate, about 85% of the playerbase just throws their cc's as an opener, and then willy-nilly to prevent people from moving. cc's are in their opening rotation more than being used strategically.

 

I've long been a proponent of some of the following (though if they did #1, #3 is moot):

1. decrease every classes anti-cc to 1 min cooldown for all classes.

2. make all stuns have a max of 4 secs duration

3. all ccs except roots/snares break on damage, except the one stun each class gets. roots/snares still allow a player to control their character or break the root/snare.

 

4. bubble stun: can apply bubble to all teammates, but stun only works for caster. increase resolve from this stun a bit.

 

That way, people have to use stuns strategically, using them to reposition, heal or get away, rather than beating a target down while stunned locked.

 

Bascially now, if there are 2+ bubble-stunning idiots in a wz, i just leave. i play to have fun, not get frustrated by that crap. If i have a wz that stun-locks me to death through the other classes, i usually take grin and bear it, then i bring out my sin or op, and really let the stun-locks fly. Lately though, at least on my servers, the stunning hasnt been too bad. I play all day and maybe have 3-4 matches with the bubble-stunning idiots. The good thing is that its usually a premade, and these matches seem to be all back-to-back. and then these idiots fade away and WZs become fun again..

[geflin]

It's not stuns alone... it's the problem that you die too fast and get too few resolve for the duration of the stun mostly.

 

Agreed the balance on damage is terrible but stuns really makes it worse.

[facesofderek]

Stuns against a melee class aren't nearly as annoying as Knockback roots/slows, because the classes that can do them generally have multiple so even if you break the first, you're SOL to the second.

[geflin]

It's not stuns alone... it's the problem that you die too fast and get too few resolve for the duration of the stun mostly.

 

Agreed the balance on damage is terrible but stuns really makes it worse.

[DarthSabreth]

I've just been PvPing in Warzones for the last four hours and I haven't been on the winning side once. Not because I don't know how to use my class, not because I'm on a team that don't know how to use their class, but because every team I've gone up against they have more stuns. For five matches in a row I didn't get a single kill because all I did was be stunned and killed repeatedly for the entire match, earning precisely zero valor.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. PvP is fundamentally broken because Bioware have not put thought in to how their abilities effect PvP. Stuns in the single player campaign are great, they work exactly as intended. In PvP it completely unbalances the game, coming down to the team with the most stuns wins. It's frustrating beyond measure. The entire thing is exacerbated by the lack of any team matching system when you join allowing for teams of entirely the same class, being formed which determines the outcome before you've even loaded the WZ.

 

Yes, the easy answer is re-roll on a PvE server but that's not what I want from this game. I want PvP that is balanced, fun and fair, where the outcome is decided by the skill of the player rather than the make up of the team. PvP where I can actually PvP rather than stand and die stunned without achieving anything.

 

OP i seriously tried to find a point to agree with you on because i too feel that the ultra ultra ultra overly excessive stuns that patch 1.4 brought with them does suck. its not a point of the stuns them selves but the resolve change that came with patch 1.4 not to mention the sorc stun bubble issue atm.

 

but with that being said, unless you are AFKing and not doing anything there is no way possible that you would not get any valor or coms or xp or credits in a wz. the stuns are bad but not so bad that its totaly unplayable. its just a miserable experiance not a unplayable one.

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

but with that being said, unless you are AFKing and not doing anything there is no way possible that you would not get any valor or coms or xp or credits in a wz. the stuns are bad but not so bad that its totaly unplayable. its just a miserable experiance not a unplayable one.

 

I can only tell you what came up on the info sheet at the end of the match and it was zeros across the board. From what everyone is saying, I can only assume that is a bug. Nonetheless, people should not get sidetracked with that. The issue isn't one of valor or no valor, the issue is one of fun or no fun. Having your entire team in the attacking area stunned repeatedly and then systematically destroyed is not fun.

 

Part of the problem as well is the warzones themselves. If we had credible open world PvP then people wouldn't be in as tight a groups as they are in a warzone. You'd have smaller battles all over the place and in that sort of environment, cc would work. Because PvP is within a controlled environment (warzone), reducing or removing damage will not fix the problem because people will still be held in place by the team with the most stuns whilst the opposing team completes its objectives.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Would you be willing to lose all your stuns? For the overall benefit of the game of course

 

Yes. I am. Are you?

[Atramar]

'other team has more stuns' with 'I wasnt able to kill any one for five games' folowed with 'gained 0 valor'

0/10 for the op.

 

also loved note about rerolling for pve servers... like pvp is easier there lol

Edited February 6, 2013 by Atramar

[Tankqull]

The max time somebody can be stunned is 8 seconds right? Just reduce it to 6.

 

the problem with the bubble stun is that if canceled coordinated it can keep your entire team stunned for 24sec with a break of 3sec where you can act, followed by another 24sec of beeing stuned. thats the problem with the bubble - coordinated canceling of it.

the stun itself by depleting the bubble dmg-compensation is easy to handle as an attacker if you have the slightest bit of skill, and therefor is absolutly fine, beeing able to cancel it on your own is not. and that is the only thing that needs to be changed.

 

regarding singeltarget stuns, the purge ability should give you a full resolvebar on use that would fix the entire stun-TTK-discussion.

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

Part of the problem as well is the number of anti-stuns, for want of a better term. Some classes have two or three different stun abilities but to the best of my knowledge, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, all classes only have one ability that releases you from the stun. So even one on one you're at an immediate disadvantage because the player who is quicker to the stun is going to be the one that wins. The whole thing is badly thought out.

[TUXs]

Nonetheless, people should not get sidetracked with that. The issue isn't one of valor or no valor, the issue is one of fun or no fun. Having your entire team in the attacking area stunned repeatedly and then systematically destroyed is not fun.

 

This is the root of the CC issue (no pun intended ) - the absolute over abundance of CC's/stuns/root is simply NOT FUN!

 

Coordinated teams can completely exacerbate the problem too. I've been on both sides of this, the team destroying the other with CCs, yanking them left and right, mez, mine, stun...and the guy who couldn't get past the spawn area without being pulled, cc'd, killed. One was fun, one ended my night.

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

This is the root of the CC issue (no pun intended ) - the absolute over abundance of CC's/stuns/root is simply NOT FUN!

 

Coordinated teams can completely exacerbate the problem too. I've been on both sides of this, the team destroying the other with CCs, yanking them left and right, mez, mine, stun...and the guy who couldn't get past the spawn area without being pulled, cc'd, killed. One was fun, one ended my night.

 

So how would you fix it?

[TUXs]

So how would you fix it?

 

75% damage reduction while stunned or any movement stopping CC that lasts more than 2 seconds, 1/2 the timer on the CC breaker, full Resolve would break you free and full Resolve would tick down slower (10sec's roughly of cc immunity after full Resolve).

[NogueiraA]

75% damage reduction while stunned or any movement stopping CC that lasts more than 2 seconds, 1/2 the timer on the CC breaker, full Resolve would break you free and full Resolve would tick down slower (10sec's roughly of cc immunity after full Resolve).

 

PVP fixed, all complaints fixed.

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

75% damage reduction while stunned or any movement stopping CC that lasts more than 2 seconds, 1/2 the timer on the CC breaker, full Resolve would break you free and full Resolve would tick down slower (10sec's roughly of cc immunity after full Resolve).

 

75% reduction won't do much when 6 Marauders/Sentinels are pounding on you. Would have to be 100%. Problem with the CC breaker being halved is it's still only one vs. on average, two stuns per class. Some stuns need to go.

[foxmob]

lol - could prolly start with the grenades. or at least the ones that can be traded. make'em earn the right by picking up cyber. also make the other crafts worthwhile in some way. as it stands, that's the only one relevant to pvp. ok, biochem is still kind of relevant but you don't need to have it on your pvp toon anymore.

[TUXs]

75% reduction won't do much when 6 Marauders/Sentinels are pounding on you. Would have to be 100%. Problem with the CC breaker being halved is it's still only one vs. on average, two stuns per class. Some stuns need to go.

It would reduce damage by 75%...that's quite a bit actually. If 6 players are focused on me, I'll die with or without the stun. The CC breaker being halved makes it a tool I can use once a minute vs 2 now - twice as often helps!

 

I'm not trying to remove CC's or make stuns a damage immunity tool, I'm trying to suggest something that would limit just how much CC's control PvP though. Stuns are mostly used to pin players in place while they're beaten to death by 2+ players (I'm guilty of it too)...this limits that ability without reducing the number of stuns (CCs).

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

PVP fixed, all complaints fixed.

 

There's more than just stuns that need fixing for decent PvP in SWTOR. Stuns are just the most pressing concern right now.

[Stultophobe]

Every class gets a mirror stun/cc breaker at lvl 10, which works as intended in PvE. But when it comes to PvP it can seem utterly useless at times, particularly when the opposing team reserves all their stuns just for you (how generous) and constantly coordinates chain stuns on you. You'll inevitably end up popping your cooldown only to be immediately stunned again. Let's face it, resolve is useless, especially in pre 50. By the time you've built up enough resolve you're either dead or one DoT tick away from earning some button-smashing Madness Sorc another kill.

 

In conclusion, I see no issue with granting your character a min -4 sec stun/cc immunity upon use of your cooldown--considering you have to wait a whole 2 mins just to use it again.

 

But I'm sure some self-informed Op/Scoundrel will post a collage-level essay response complete with paragraphs of statistics and deep-seated moral and ethical objections in refutation, so forget I said anything

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

Every class gets a mirror stun/cc breaker at lvl 10, which works as intended in PvE. But when it comes to PvP it can seem utterly useless at times, particularly when the opposing team reserves all their stuns just for you (how generous) and constantly coordinates chain stuns on you. You'll inevitably end up popping your cooldown only to be immediately stunned again. Let's face it, resolve is useless, especially in pre 50. By the time you've built up enough resolve you're either dead or one DoT tick away from earning some button-smashing Madness Sorc another kill.

 

In conclusion, I see no issue with granting your character a min -4 sec stun/cc immunity upon use of your cooldown--considering you have to wait a whole 2 mins just to use it again.

 

But I'm sure some self-informed Op/Scoundrel will post a collage-level essay response complete with paragraphs of statistics and deep-seated moral and ethical objections in refutation, so forget I said anything

 

I find it ridiculous that an Immortal Juggernaut can be killed by an Operative/Scoundrel one on one simply because they can keep you permanently stunned. It's like a Rhino being pecked to death by a budgie. I'd like to see all CC stun to be removed from the Marauder/Sentinel as well as a much reduced length of time that you're stunned and all stuns across all classes to have a identical cool down. CC Stuns work exactly as intended in PvE but unbalance PvP horribly. CC Stuns should also use a lot more resolve/willpower to make people think twice about using them willy nilly and start using them more strategically and the cool down on the stun breaker be brought in line with the cool down on the stun.

[WaywardOne]

75% reduction won't do much when 6 Marauders/Sentinels are pounding on you. Would have to be 100%. Problem with the CC breaker being halved is it's still only one vs. on average, two stuns per class. Some stuns need to go.

 

lol. But when 6 snipers are pounding on you you'll be fine? Or pyros? Or sins? Not sure what your point is. When it's just you vs 6 characters you should be dead fast no matter what.

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

lol. But when 6 snipers are pounding on you you'll be fine? Or pyros? Or sins? Not sure what your point is. When it's just you vs 6 characters you should be dead fast no matter what.

 

That is the point.

[TUXs]

Every class gets a mirror stun/cc breaker at lvl 10, which works as intended in PvE. But when it comes to PvP it can seem utterly useless at times, particularly when the opposing team reserves all their stuns just for you (how generous) and constantly coordinates chain stuns on you.

 

It's not just when you're focused...it's the disparity of CC's vs CC breaks. My 2 Troopers have 1 CC break on a 2 min cooldown, yet my Commando has 3 movement stopping CC's (including grenade) and a knockback, my Vanguard has 3 and the grapple. Nobody needs to focus anyone for CC's to be obviously out of balance.