The Scrapper's Handbook: A PvP Guide

[AngelofCain]

[randiesel]

 

Hehe nice. Haven't seen you in a long time Hallow. Guess I should play my POT5 Op more...

 

But anyhow, I'm interested to see how this goes in 2 weeks. With energy regen being normalized (finally) and lol-roll, plus the other changes to increase our sustained dps, it might be better than it is now.

 

The thing that has me looking negatively on it is the buffs other classes have received, and zero change to our survivability. I found it quite interesting to read the Dev post stating that all class balancing is a one man affair, regardless if he has a "team supporting him". He's a sniper to boot.

 

Maybe our offense has been increased more so to the point that it makes it our best defense. I have yet to see it though b/c I haven't been able to get a war zone queue to pop since before the PT nerf on the PTS.

Edited March 26, 2013 by randiesel

[AngelofCain]

awww poor p/t crybabies. It's going to be fun, but I may just keep my old 2p pve bonus cause The dev's can **** me concerning our set bonus's. Edited March 26, 2013 by AngelofCain

[randiesel]

awww poor p/t crybabies. It's going to be fun, but I may just keep my old 2p pve bonus cause The dev's can **** me concerning our set bonus's.

 

Lol yeah, I laughed when I saw a few posts of Pts wanting to quit after their bull **** hybrid was nerfed.

 

The pve set bonus change sucks though. Crit nerf as a whole, yet smashers continue to autocrit. Whatever.

[ktkenshinx]

Lol yeah, I laughed when I saw a few posts of Pts wanting to quit after their bull **** hybrid was nerfed.

 

The pve set bonus change sucks though. Crit nerf as a whole, yet smashers continue to autocrit. Whatever.

I actually really enjoyed the Shield Probe bonus on the PTS. It's not our old PvE set bonus, but it is nice. I have taken to saving it right before I see the full stack of Shockwave; got whispered a few times by Mars/Juggs accusing me of hacking after their smash only got through for about 3k damage. At level 55 it seems to be absorbing roughly 4k or so damage, and that's a sizable boost to our survivability. But yeah, I agree that the old PvE bonus was overall better.

 

The fact that BW nerfed that nightmarish PT hybrid gives me faith that the devs will make a few last-minute adjustments to the game. This will hopefully include another rebalance of crit and a few small Scrapper buffs. I am unwilling to believe that they are so stupid as to nerf crit but keep the autocritters at full potential. Similarly, I am equally optimistic that Scrappers will get some small buffs to damage, whether through base ability increases, talent changes (e.g. Underdog), and/or CD reductions (BB back to 9 seconds).

[Wainamoinen]

Apologies for linking my own thread, but you guys may be interested in a post I made in the PvP forum.

 

It compares the damage I was taking from different abilities on the PTS and compares it to Live. I'm scrapper ofc.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=615918

[randiesel]

Apologies for linking my own thread, but you guys may be interested in a post I made in the PvP forum.

 

It compares the damage I was taking from different abilities on the PTS and compares it to Live. I'm scrapper ofc.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=615918

 

Thank you!

[Gondolindhrim]

First of all, great thread and well worth the sticky. I've been levelling an Operative almost solely through PvP (only done class story and main planetary chains as far as PvE goes) the past two months or so, and the tips and tricks I learned from this thread have been quite helpful.

 

Now, she hit level 49 a few days ago, but I've deliberately avoided further XP gain since the group of friends I play with are quite a way off 50, and I'm not too keen on playing in Recruit gear anyway. However, since the PvE bonus on the Arkanian gear is so much worse than what we have on live, I was wondering if anyone who's been on the PTS knows if the current set bonus will still be obtainable in 2.0 (by running EC HM/NiM)?

 

TL;DR - Will Dread Guard gear purchased after the expansion have the current set bonus for Scrapper/Concealment, or the new one? If it's the latter, I'll run some ops this weekend and try to grab the pieces I need before it's too late.

[randiesel]

Already been stated, the stats remain the same on current gear but slots will be overwritten by higher level gears set bonus if you drop that armoring into the shell.

 

An don't hold off on hitting 50. For what, the expansion goes live in 4 days.

[ktkenshinx]

Starting my leveling journey to 55 today! Once I hit 55 and see how things are, I will do a thorough updating of the first post. Bolster is making PVP testing a bit inconsistent right now; I am smacking around guys one minute and then eating 8k hits from a level 35 in the next. But I should have some starting ideas soon enough.

 

Good luck on Makeb fellow Scrappers and Operatives!

[AngelofCain]

Starting my leveling journey to 55 today! Once I hit 55 and see how things are, I will do a thorough updating of the first post. Bolster is making PVP testing a bit inconsistent right now; I am smacking around guys one minute and then eating 8k hits from a level 35 in the next. But I should have some starting ideas soon enough.

 

Good luck on Makeb fellow Scrappers and Operatives!

 

FInished makeb this afternoon. will finish leveling by pvp. so far... it looks really good. 7,6k hit on a slinger and a 6k backstab.

 

The roll is nice. think they fixed the bounce roll, either that or I am doing it wrong. But I tend to over use it and get energy depleted.

[Wainamoinen]

People may not wish to believe it with all the weeping and pulling of hair over naked vs pvp gear, but my EWH still gives me better stats (once you account for expertise, bonus damage, crit chance and surge bonus) than any of the sub-par sets I tried.

 

Also, I find it kind of nice that everyone's pretty much of a level. Highest Shoot First was 8374 last night, a few other 8ks and a nice pile of 7ks and 6ks from various abilities. That's in the modded EWH gear. People's stats maybe similar, but can still ruin someone's day from stealth, which is great. Made 51 before I logged off so I get to roll around like Sonic tonight.

 

edit: noticed i was taking surprisingly little Smash damage too (as in, Smash wasn't 90% of the biggest hits I took - more like 20%), which was a nice surprise. Don't know why. Highest hits taken were from Maul (topped at 7.8k), some big Heatseekers too.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[randiesel]

Yeah, I only leveled to 51 on my scrapper, but been doing over 8k each game with dps running almost up to 1k. They definitely addressed a lot of issues with the spec and energy management is a thing of the past, at least for those of us who lived through the last year with this class.

 

The roll is actually a lot more fun/useful than I thought. I was able to hold off 3 ppl from capping a pylon in AH by myself and took out 2 sentinels, before dying to the guardian. All-in-all it's 100% better than it used to be.

 

I am hearing from friends that MM snipers are ****** the game once they get their roll. Haven't had too much trouble with them, but honestly I've been playing my shadow a lot more so not able to comment just yet.

[AngelofCain]

hit 55 this morning and ran coupla warzones. That roll makes us super sleek in VS, definitely.

 

AHG still not my favorite but easier to get around and escape with our roll.

 

so while you sonic the hedgehogs roll around lvling, pay attention to the 1 second window after the roll, you can cast probe during that window. and then move in.

 

Just a little fun escape tactic against players, roll through them and cast probe as you turn around. no crouching required.

Edited April 10, 2013 by AngelofCain

[Wainamoinen]

so while you sonic the hedgehogs roll around lvling, pay attention to the 1 second window after the roll, you can cast probe during that window. and then move in.

 

You mean without having to hit crouch? That would be neat, will give that a try.

[Wainamoinen]

OLD EQUATION

Surge: 50+30(1-(1-(.01/.3))^(Surge/55/.11))

 

NEW EQUATION

Surge: 50+30(1-(1-(.01/.3))^(Surge/55/.22))

 

Heads Up.

 

Was looking at my stats and they really weren't fitting what I expected.

 

Surge appears to have been reverted. Back to 0.11 in the final denominator rather than 0.22. More bonus damage on crits.

 

Also, and probably more important, crit chance values are different from the last PTS build. More generous.

 

They aren't as they were in 1.7, nor on the last PTS build, but main stat seems to give less crit chance than 1.7, more than PTS; while Crit gives much more. Balance is between 1.7 and PTS with Crit more valuable than we were expecting.

 

Can't confirm as was toodling with numbers from Tuesday night during my lunch break today, and need to get home to grab some more and make sure I haven't forgotten a new talent or something before I can check, so be wary of these numbers for crit chance. Surge seems definite.

 

I'd post this on the PvP forum, but that's just a cluster**** of uninformed whining about bolster at the minute.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Wainamoinen]

Think I've worked out my problem with Crit chance - if I remember correctly, as 50 I was only 2/3 on the 1% crit chance per point talent in the base of Dirty Fighting tree.

 

With this accounted for, Crit is calculated in 2.0 as it was in 1.7

 

So 2.0 on Live did not see the big reduction in the value of Crit, or Surge nerf that was operating on PTS, it's as you were.

 

I don't think I've seen this posted. Maybe I missed it.

 

edit: posted about it in the PvP forum after all. Makes a break from the ear-splitting volume of whining at least.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Belly]

Think I've worked out my problem with Crit chance - if I remember correctly, as 50 I was only 2/3 on the 1% crit chance per point talent in the base of Dirty Fighting tree.

 

With this accounted for, Crit is calculated in 2.0 as it was in 1.7

 

So 2.0 on Live did not see the big reduction in the value of Crit, or Surge nerf that was operating on PTS, it's as you were.

 

I don't think I've seen this posted. Maybe I missed it.

 

edit: posted about it in the PvP forum after all. Makes a break from the ear-splitting volume of whining at least.

 

Good deal, thanks for this

 

And, i'm with you about the whining, it's pretty ridiculous right now

[DrKlep]

The crit formula stays the same for people up to level 50. As you level up to 55, you'll notice it drop precipitously.

[Wainamoinen]

The crit formula stays the same for people up to level 50. As you level up to 55, you'll notice it drop precipitously.

 

Cheers. Noticed that myself now as I let my main level to 51 (have been deliberately not blasting through levelling on him). They appear to have complicated the equations, for crit at least. Level 50 still obeys the old rules, but there's progressive reductions (not straight line by first indication either, pain in the behind), presumably ending with level 55 working as on PTS.

[randiesel]

So it's been a while since this thread was updated. Looking to see what people's impressions of scrapper at 2.0 in pvp.

 

As far as sustained dps goes, I think it's amazingly better than 1.7. We're able to play more fluidly and alacrity plays a good role in aiding our damage. 50-54 was a lot more burst than I'm putting out at 55, but I think the damage sort of normalized at end level.

 

That's all on a target dummy. As a whole in pvp, I think we're even more dead weight than we were in 1.7. This is not die to our damage, but other classes (especially ranged) are pulling much better burst damage than we can. Nothing has been done to I've us better defense in pvp, which would increase our survivability. Basically I think we're stuck with the same problem as in 1.7 (survivability) and its even worse for scrappers now than it was before.

 

I've tested with power/surge gear getting some slower crits up to 7.5k and have also sold those back an tested with alacrity/crit gear for quicker/lower crits 5.7-6.2k. The end result is pretty much the same damage-wise in every wz. Our TTK stays the same and were very quick to be killed. We ARE still effective if guarde and getting heals regularly, as I found by my buddy VG tank guarding me for a few games last night. I actually placed top damage in those games because I survived long enough to do anything. If not, we're just going to die a lot an perform subpar. And even still, it was all goo that my buddy guarded me, but other ppl are actually more important to heal than me (namely, healers) so it still just makes me feel like a scrapper is even more of a liability now than it was pre-2.0.

 

I have yet to test with the bolster changes going live today since in at work, so I pray that were more effective afterwards.

 

I'm just lookin for constructive feedback, not flaming based overly positive or negative responses on what the rest of our already low population of scrappers think.

[randiesel]

I forgot to cite specific examples as far as other classes vs scrappers:

 

Shadows burst between 7.5-8.5k at 55 normally. My highest crit was 9004 on my shadow.

 

Smashers pull somewhere between 7.3-9 k from what I've seen recently.

 

Sages (I think middle tree) pull around 8k hits. One guy of exceptional skill on my server pulled a 9.5k hit.

 

Gunnery commandos pull quick bursty damage now, somewhere around 7k IIRC.

 

Snipers I've seen hit up to 8.2k I think. My buddy on imp side said he got some insane ambush of 23k. Idk how truthful that was or how drunk he was when it happened lol.

 

Carnage marauders I've seen hit 7k consistently.

 

We do hot hard, but the above are all things that we could get hit BY and notice else we can do except take it on the chin.

 

While typing this out, I think I finally thought of is our ultimate weakness, which I think should be addressed:

 

A few years ago hen I played Wow, I played a rogue for quite a whole. Our best defense in the early years was our ability to dodge. I think most rogues used to be around 30% dodge chance, which could be increased as you gained more agility (main stat like cunning). This allowed the rogue to get almost 40% dodge, which was later seen as too much and gains from agility were nerfed, but we still dodged a lot of attacks.

 

I checked my 2 scoundrels an 2 operatives last night and all are flat 7% chance to dodge, with 37% dodge chance while rolling. That means, almost all of the time were eating the full force of every attack on us, regardless of our defensive CDs, which are really weak in comparison to say a shadow.

 

I think if our dodge rate were increased to 20-25%, our survivability would greatly increase. Thoughts?

[Luckeyduckey]

I think increasing the dodge by that much would work amazingly. Even if we lost Defensive Screen/Shield Probe (Not sure what it's called) the dodge would be well worth it.

[randiesel]

Ok, so after some testing today, I think the scrapper is in a much better spot.

 

For my testing today, I was in all EWH gear, except for Conq gun, 1 Partisan relic (410 power), 1 crit/surge ear piece and 1 power/surge ear piece. I queued for 4 games and decided to go back with power/surge and some more crit rather than picking up too much alacrity just yet.

 

The stat normalization with bolster must've been quite substantial, because I noticed my survivability went up a lot, seemed to take a lot more hits than I was dealing. My damage was more "acceptable" getting a lot of 7-7.4k SFs and 6.3-6.7k BBs; even Explosive Charge was critting for 6.2k. I say "acceptable damage" as other classes are hitting for more, but we have more crits strung together with our attacks.

 

I still conclude that I think we'd be better place with a higher dodge percentage (mouse-over "defense chance" in your defense pane and you'll see your melee and ranged dodge chance) somewhere in the neighboorhood of 25%, but overall I think we're back to around the survivability we had in 1.7 with today's fix.

 

Note: Sorry that my gear for my testing wasn't full Partisan or better. I've been playing my shadow more and have him geared up.

 

Please add your thoughts as well. I like reading what the scrapper community feels, even if there are only a few of us left.

[CarthOnansi]

I got the pre-order in in time, so I was playing on the servers before the majority, which in my opinion was the best time to test, as since then the smashers have all come back.

 

What seemed to happen is everyone has had a damage increase, as well as a health increase. Almost everything has basically got bigger.

 

Tanks are now lethal, their survivability is ridiculous and those classes previously deemed "tank destroyers" (who use mainly tech and force damage to go past shields) now no longer hold the title, leaving tanks equipped to go into most fights and come out ontop, no matter the class.

 

Scoundrel and shadow are now the only classes I PvP on (recently quit pvp on my gunslinger as teams are still not developed enough to recognize the potential and would only complain as to what I did.

 

My shadow has progressed nicely, I didn't use to use her for any dps in PvP (dedicated tank), however was pleasantly surprised at how much damage they can dish out in infiltration. Survivability is low, but that is the usual cost, you find yourself a good healer I was getting 12-14 medals in one life, easily.

 

Scoundrel however is a completely different ball game, whereas on shadow I would often start the fight out of stealth, scoundrel if I start out of stealth, still I end up getting jumped and finished off, they have less survivability than our force counterparts the infiltration shadows. Roll was good, and let us have the maneuverability we need to remain competitive, given the damage increase. But it is not enough in my opinion to get us a slot in a ranked team once again.

 

The problem is, although damage has been increased (been hitting around 7K on shoot first, 6-7K on backblast, 6.4K on sab charge, at maximum and rarely) it is not enough, quickly enough to truly keep us competitive. The nerf to crit has affected us more than most classes, as most of our abilities actually have poor base damage, hell even the skill trees show how much we ought to depend on crit and surge. I am lucky to get 1 crit in a rotation now, and given that lets say occurs on shoot first at 7K leads us to roughly this amount of damage

 

7K + 1.5K(flechette round) + 3.5K(backblast)+ 2K(sab charge) + 1.5K (blaster whip) + 2x 1.5K(sucker punch) + 1.5K (vital shot) = 18K

 

GIven even the squishiest targets now have 25K you can see the problem. In a warzone you have to keep on the target hope to hell a healer does give your target some healz, hope there is no tank guarding them and pick the right time when you can just 1v1 someone.

 

Take away the shoot first where is our damage please?

 

I am currently running in 3/4 Partisian gear, with adrenals and some items augmented.

 

We are either going to need some slight damage buffs, to keep us on par with other true burst classes (shadow), or we need to have more survivability in a fight. (1v1 we can rely on our heals, 5v4 mass fight, we can't)