The common misconception about Expertise:

[Xerain]

Once again, you aren't including the whole picture, the amount of HP gained and crit chance gained needs to be factored in as well. 1396 Expertise is BARELY going to be noticeable from 1200ish, a healer will not be able to tell the difference, I can guarantee you that. You might be SLIGHTLY more durable with maximum expertise but going power crystals and two PvE armorings is a lot more efficient in your stat distribution. The difference between the two set ups are almost neglibile but the 1200ish expertise has been proven to be slightly more efficient when it comes to outgoing damage vs incoming damage tradeoff.

 

Everything you say is based on your word and nothing else, you have no proof or data to back your claims up. The only thing you've done is use poor attempts at a test to prove that one is better then the other. The only thing you are doing is basing your opinion on how something "feels".

 

No, you're not slightly more durable, you're a lot more durable and you can notice it quite easily. It's strange.

 

Switch back and for between the two options. I have been for quite some time now just to watch. You die FAR easier with 1208 expertise than you do with 1390.

 

Staying alive = more damage output = more objective play = more winnings.

[Mharz]

Okay folks, I am a scientist and I do love a good bit of number crunching. So instead of posting how I feel when I wear more or less Expertise gear I did some number crunching and some testing.

 

### Disclaimer - This was done for my level 50 Sorc and your mileage may vary ###

 

Testing setup:

 

I was on my ship, target was my warzone target dummy. I cast Force Lightning on the dummy N times with combat logs running. After I was satisfied with the number of samples I closed my combat logs and uploaded them to askmrrobot.com. I looked at damage done on average and maximum damage for 3 cases corresponding to 3 different amounts of Expertise. I kept all stats identical and only swapped crystals in my main and off hand (power and expertise) to affect the change.

 

The numbers listed after each case indicate the mean damage and the max (critical) damage.

 

Case 1: Expertise = 1214, Mean = 977, Max = 1274

Case 2: Expertise = 1255, Mean = 958, Max = 1262

Case 3: Expertise = 1296, Mean = 946, Max = 1250

 

Also of note is the following:

 

Case 1: Expertise = 1214, PvP Damage Reduction: 18.64%

Case 2: Expertise = 1255, PvP Damage Reduction: 19.01%

Case 3: Expertise = 1296, PvP Damage Reduction: 19.37%

 

Summary: So what's all this mean? You can get about 2% more damage output in exchange for about 0.7% damage reduction.

 

In my opinion, right now in PvP with the game so broken (way too much CC and way too low TTK) an added 0.7% isn't going to matter when you get focused by 2 or more players. Further, if you consider the value of burst in PvP I think this becomes an east choice to make.

 

TL; DR: If you're a damage class add more power to increase your burst at the cost of survivability. If you need to survive more, add more expertise at the cost of damage. The trade off is about 2% damage for 0.7% mitigation.

 

Complete test results in the attached spoiler section for the curious.

 

 

 

Case 1:

 

Willpower: 1977

Expertise: 1214

Bonus Damage: 914.8

 

PvP Damage Boost: 22.92%

PvP Damage Reduction: 18.64%

PvP Healing Boost: 12.67%

 

All buffs + Rakata Resolve Stim

 

N=284 (71 casts with 4 ticks/cast)

Mean = 977

Max = 1274

 

Case 2:

 

Willpower: 1977

Expertise: 1255

Bonus Damage: 904.9

 

PvP Damage Boost: 23.47%

PvP Damage Reduction: 19.01%

PvP Healing Boost: 12.99%

 

All buffs + Rakata Resolve Stim

 

N=308 (77 casts with 4 ticks/cast)

Mean = 958

Max = 1262

 

 

 

Case 3:

 

Willpower: 1977

Expertise: 1296

Bonus Damage: 895.0

 

PvP Damage Boost: 24.02%

PvP Damage Reduction: 19.37%

PvP Healing Boost: 13.30%

 

All buffs + Rakata Resolve Stim

 

N=248 (62 casts with 4 ticks/cast)

Mean = 946

Max = 1250

 

 

 

 

Thoughtful comments and suggestions for other tests are always welcome.

[cashogy_reborn]

you need to test it on another player, not a target dummy.

 

that test doesnt include the affect of your opponents expertise, and it does tell you how much damage they would do to you.

 

 

the basic idea of the OP is correct. 1396 expertise gives you ~2.5% more damage and damage reduction vs a player with 1214 expertise. likewise, a 1214 expertise player will hit a 1396 expertise player for 2.5% less, and receive 2.5% more damage.

 

i have been running with 1214 expertise for a long time and ive not noticed a major disadvantage, even in RWZs.

 

now, in order for someone with 1214 expertise to overcome the 2.5% difference, they would need 2.5% more health and 2.5% more damage dealt.

 

here is me w/ 1396 expertise: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/4569cc73-0c64-498e-bdaf-b0cec17c179a

here is me w/ 1214 expertise: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/b47e385d-8d69-45e1-b054-c356c425069c

 

health difference: 19416.3 (1214exp) vs 19027 (1396exp) ---> 2% advantage to 1214exp

primary damage difference: 1219.1 (1214exp) vs 1182.5 (1396exp) ---> 3% advantage to 1214exp

 

as you can see, its pretty much a wash. 2% more health and 3% more damage, compared to 2.5% more expertise.

 

however, the 2.5% difference in expertise has an advantage, b/c direct damage reduction is better than a flat health increase. youre not going to notice much difference in terms of your own damage output though.

 

so despite what the OP thinks about theorycrafting, it actually does prove he is correct

Edited February 3, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[Caeliux]

So it seems 1396 does more from what you guys are saying, which makes me want to ask these questions.

 

Does 1396 mean every dps needs to get that to maximize their dps, or is this equation class specific when it comes to better outcome in dps?

 

Why I ask is some dps is sustained dps like balance sage, then there is smash build guardian with instant burst or a scrapper.

 

Same question for healing, does 1396 mean better healing than lets say 1214 when it comes to expertise?

Edited February 3, 2013 by Caeliux

[Mharz]

you need to test it on another player, not a target dummy.

 

that test doesnt include the affect of your opponents expertise, and it does tell you how much damage they would do to you.

 

Why on another player? The formula for damage doesn't have opponent's expertise does it?

 

As far as I know the following are still valid.

 

PvP Healing Boost % = 0.3 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( Expertise / max(Level,20) / 1.5 )

PvP Damage Reduction % = 1 - 1 / (1 + PvP Damage Boost %)

PvP Damage Boost % = 0.5 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( Expertise / max(Level,20) / 0.8 )

 

 

Also, the question of how much they do to you was answered. You get about 2% more damage at the cost of about 0.7% damage mitigation.

[abhaxus]

I'll just chime in and say that I have tried both and feel in the end that they were the exact same. I have only ever healed in rateds, and usually run 1290ish expertise on my sorc healer. For healers it is definitely skewed AWAY from high expertise however. The other day on my op healer, I forgot that I had swapped my WH implants and earpiece for some PVE gear, and was only running about 920 expertise instead of 1200. In an incredibly stacked-against-me WZ (a well geared and organized pub premade with multple healers and lolsmash vs me being a solo healer on a team of idiots), I healed 600k on a short hypergate and didn't feel any less survivability even though I didn't have significantly higher HP with that gear. At least for op healers, the number of defensive tools available and skilful use of them equates to much higher survivability than expertise does.

[goddgundam]

What about datacrons??

[cashogy_reborn]

Why on another player? The formula for damage doesn't have opponent's expertise does it?

 

yes, the calculation of your damage dealt to another player includes their expertise. that is why there is a "damage reduction" bonus for expertise, in addition to damage dealt and healing.

 

which is why parsing damage for PvP testing on a target dummy is not accurate

[cashogy_reborn]

yes, the calculation of your damage dealt to another player includes their expertise. that is why there is a "damage reduction" bonus for expertise, in addition to damage dealt and healing.

 

which is why parsing damage for PvP testing on a target dummy is not accurate

 

What about datacrons??

 

what about them? obviously every little bit helps, but they certainly dont make a dramatic impact on anything

[Mindwreck]

So purely from a dps perspective what is the conclusion here? Do you put out more damage with two +41 power crystals or two +41 expertise crystals? I'm not concerned about a small percentage increase in survivability, thats what healers are for. Burst damage is always king for a dps in pvp.

[cashogy_reborn]

So purely from a dps perspective what is the conclusion here? Do you put out more damage with two +41 power crystals or two +41 expertise crystals? I'm not concerned about a small percentage increase in survivability, thats what healers are for. Burst damage is always king for a dps in pvp.

 

there does not seem to be a tangible difference in damage output with either set-up

[JP_Legatus]

I haven't seen anybody in this thread mention the fact that expertise now gives a different amount of damage increase and damage mitigation, where before it was the same. IE, the old expertise cap used to give you 25% increase AND mitigation, the 1.4 expertise gives 22% damage and 18% mitigation.

 

Basically I just want to make sure you people are using the correct numbers when you calculate. An expertise of 50 will provide less mitigation than damage, every time just because of that fact by itself.

 

I'm not saying that changes anybody's argument, I'm too lazy to do my own math. Someone please do it for me and use the 18% instead of the 22%. TY

[Kaane]

So purely from a dps perspective what is the conclusion here? Do you put out more damage with two +41 power crystals or two +41 expertise crystals? I'm not concerned about a small percentage increase in survivability, thats what healers are for. Burst damage is always king for a dps in pvp.

 

There is no one answer. It all depends who you are fighting. If you are fighting a 1000 expertise target, you will do more damage with +41 expertise crystals. If you fight someone with 1396, power will most likely be better, but they will be hitting you much harder.

[cashogy_reborn]

I haven't seen anybody in this thread mention the fact that expertise now gives a different amount of damage increase and damage mitigation, where before it was the same. IE, the old expertise cap used to give you 25% increase AND mitigation, the 1.4 expertise gives 22% damage and 18% mitigation.

 

Basically I just want to make sure you people are using the correct numbers when you calculate. An expertise of 50 will provide less mitigation than damage, every time just because of that fact by itself.

 

I'm not saying that changes anybody's argument, I'm too lazy to do my own math. Someone please do it for me and use the 18% instead of the 22%. TY

 

because of the way that damage is calculated, the previous expertise values (when defense and offense bonus were the same) actually returned an advantage in defensive bonus. aka the defensive bonus was greater than the offensive bonus despite being the same number.

 

when bioware revamped expertise, they accounted for that. so even tho your defensive expertise bonus is several % lower than the offensive expertise boost, if you fight someone with the same expertise as you they effectively cancel out.

[Hexdoll]

I see a difference even when taking dmg reduct from skill tree and it seems more than 3% it claims.

[Blasphemerr]

It's always been very easy to hide the deficit of lower expertise than optimal in rateds/premades because of heals and guard swaps. Data would be cool, though.

[mtsr]

For some classes the EWH implants are not BIS they are Gar-bahg.

So I fault no-one for using a PvE (or 2) implants instead.

 

my 2cents.

[Uber_the_Goober]

comparing <snip>

 

numbers, blah blah

 

<snip>

 

 

in a game where people die in a couple hits it really doesn't matter what you do.

 

Here's where the real information is. As long as your expertise is somewhat similar to your opponents, and you're not comparing a fresh no gear 50 to an EWH beast, then there's no appreciable damage difference. A 5% inaccuracy in the expertise damage boost will not affect anything if you're losing a quarter of your health in one hit, or if you're being focused by 3 or 4 people at once.

 

It doesn't matter at all.

[Megatfx]

I'm testing it now. SO far expertise is still winning. We got our bonus damage within 3 bonus damage of each other, he has .07% more crit than me, identical surge, identical accuracy. Then I take out 2 PvP armorings replace with 2 pve armorings, t hen put 2 power crystals and put two expertise crystals.

 

He is doing more damage to me even though I have 670+ bonus damage and he has 634 bonus damage with 1390 expertise. (He didn't have power relics for 1396 so I had to put on my old stuff, so I'm running 1208 expertise to compensate.)

[cashogy_reborn]

I'm testing it now. SO far expertise is still winning. We got our bonus damage within 3 bonus damage of each other, he has .07% more crit than me, identical surge, identical accuracy. Then I take out 2 PvP armorings replace with 2 pve armorings, t hen put 2 power crystals and put two expertise crystals.

 

He is doing more damage to me even though I have 670+ bonus damage and he has 634 bonus damage with 1390 expertise. (He didn't have power relics for 1396 so I had to put on my old stuff, so I'm running 1208 expertise to compensate.)

 

pretty much what i figured would be the result based on my previous post.

 

once you compile all the data, id be willing to be that the 1390 expertise average damage will be ~2.5% greater

[Megatfx]

We're using a parser. Expertise is winning again.

[Megatfx]

Going to repost this with finished info. Edited February 3, 2013 by Megatfx

[cashogy_reborn]

you need a lot more data. like, 10 times this data.

 

what did you do, hit on each other for 15s and call it a test? i certainly hope that cut/paste from the parse was just a small segment. especially since he got an extra hit on you, even tho you said you each hit each other the same number of times

[Megatfx]

That's why I removed it. We've done a much longer segment so far. We are keeping a spreadsheet.

 

We're just doing non-crits. I'll post the spreadsheet when we've hit each other 100 times.

 

Again... expertise is blatantly winning.

 

We got our bonus damage numbers even closer. He is currently .4 bonus damage higher than me. (With EQUAL expertise, I'm obviously much higher when I put power crystals and pve armorings in) I'll link the screenshots when we're complete.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Megatfx

[Megatfx]

http://www.twitch.tv/frezzzer

 

That is a livestream of us doing this, so you can see we aren't making numbers up. We are at 23 out of 100 at the time of this post.