7-14 day lock out on relisting GTN items

[ArenRakescar]

If an item is under-priced the only person who is being robbed of a decent price is the person who listed the item.

 

Often have I willingly chosen to be the "victim" in this transaction, simply because a quick sale was preferable to increased earnings from a sale that may or may not occur. I like to think of it as charity.

[Phyltr]

Funny that anyone should mention the real world equivalent market dynamics. What people are doing when they're consistently buying items and relisting them at higher prices, is a form of price fixing. It's designed for the price to be able to be higher using no means other than choking the supply at any price lower than their target inflated price. Now everyone knows that price fixing in the real world is not legal... and so for the sake of the integrity of the GTN, there should indeed be some sort of re-listing lockout on all GTN items.

Isn't this really only true is the person trying to "price fix" also controls the supply? A single person in SWTOR literally can't control the supply of items. I mean, people could just go out and farm more of whatever this person is selling and list it lower, or higher or however they feel like it. The parallel is going to Wal-Mart and buying up all the soap and then standing outside trying to sell the soap at a higher price. The problem is that Wal-Mart (and SWTOR players) will just restock the shelves.

 

Edit: I forgot to re-iterate what many people already have about the fact that the technical backend would be so cumbersome and resource hogging, that I can't possibly see a way that BioWare would try to implement such a thing. It would almost require a re-code of how they handle items in general and that seems like a waste of resources for a few people who are mad they got undercut.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Phyltr

[Petnil]

Relisting is a way to fight undercutting ??? Ok then i guess that one standpoint. I think the argument the OP is trying to say is reslisting is an atempt to control the market and make prices higher than they should.

 

In fact someone could argue the exact opposite. Undercutting is a way to fight overpricing.

 

It´s quite simple. If the market existed only of people who would actually use the items they got from GTN then they wouldn´t have to compete with people buying to relist items. Demand would drop and prices would most likely drop too. Ofc when prices drop the suply might drop aswell, it´s fairly basic economic.

[PlasmaJohn]

Edit: I forgot to re-iterate what many people already have about the fact that the technical backend would be so cumbersome and resource hogging, ...

Not fact, speculation and a rather flawed one at that. Easy enough to implement with a handful of extra bytes per item (and if that breaks the bank there are some more fundamental issues they need to worry about).

 

That said, it's an awful idea for reasons already stated.

[Heezdedjim]

Pot, meet kettle.

[Kalfear]

Thankfully someone got it

(well more then a few to be honest)

 

Yeah, relisting lock outs dont stop undercutting and honestly I'm baffled how anyone comes up with that?

 

Honestly Relisting lock outs don't stop price gougers either,

it just slows them down abit

Stops them from scooping up the low items and immediately redestruting them as over priced items.

They can still do it but they have to sit on the item for abit.

 

As for all those grand programers saying about how hard it would be to program (why do people make this arguement when they have no clue??)

 

The mechanic is already in place and active in game, complete with a timer countdown.

Wouldnt take a huge leap to take that system and just update it for this system.

Very small upgrade to be honest.

 

In the end its going to come to this

The price gougers will say and create and imagine any and all excuses to be allowed to over price someone elses goods. Because they only think of themselves.

 

The lock out is for all those other players that dont farm credits to afford the over priced items.

And I guarentee you EA, 21+ years of MMORPG experience in saying this, you are losing subs over this reason.

Not a huge amount, but if you lose even 2 subs to keep one gouger, are you not coming out on the short end?

 

As for me, personally either way doesnt matter to me.

I have every single craft at 400 and even more alts running material missions.

I join in on 3 hard mode Ops and com runs every week.

ALL my 50s are in 61 armor and are working on TFB Dread guard gear

In other words, im self sufficient,

I think ive made 5 purchases on GTN since launch

 

This proposal was to address a clear and obvious problem issue in game that even I, someone that doesnt even use the system, could clearly see.

[Phyltr]

As for all those grand programers saying about how hard it would be to program (why do people make this arguement when they have no clue??)

 

The mechanic is already in place and active in game, complete with a timer countdown.

Wouldnt take a huge leap to take that system and just update it for this system.

Very small upgrade to be honest.

Wait...so none of us should comment on what we assume the system design to be because none of us have any clue, right? And then in the next breath you comment on what you assume the system design to be. Sorry, I can't read anymore of your post because this hypocrisy has me laughing too hard.

[Hyfy]

Wait...so none of us should comment on what we assume the system design to be because none of us have any clue, right? And then in the next breath you comment on what you assume the system design to be. Sorry, I can't read anymore of your post because this hypocrisy has me laughing too hard.

 

Hey now, you can't go getting all logical with people like that. Hell I already pointed out some of his earlier hypocrisy, not surprisingly with no response.

[ArenRakescar]

The mechanic is already in place and active in game, complete with a timer countdown.

 

For all any of us know, that famous mechanic is entirely client-side and all it does is place the timer on the item as soon as you receive/open a pack - with no additional client-server traffic.

 

That is not the same thing as interactively querying a database for item meta-data (assuming it can be stored as such) each time you open your cargo bay or your inventory. Perhaps I over estimate the impact such a thing would have on game performance, but it smacks of wasted system resources nevertheless.

 

From a hypothetical, technical point of view, it's mildly interesting

[psandak]

I am reminded of the confrontation between Quark and the Karama in one episode of Deep Space Nine.

 

The OP apparently believes like the Karama - any given item should have a set value based on cost of materials, labor to make it, and reasonable profit margin. And the thought of buying that item at that price and then trying to resell it at a higher price is somehow wrong.

 

Meanwhile those who play the GTM market think more like Ferengi - buy low, sell high and push the limits as far as you can. In the end sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. That is what makes the whole process exciting

 

But this type of trading happens EVERY DAY in real life. Commodities and stock brokers try to read the markets, buying low and selling high. Many if not most, get an adrenaline rush off the process...especially when they win big.

 

Furthermore there are wholesalers and retailers. Wholesalers buy products from manufacturers, then turn around and sell them to retailers at higher prices than they paid. The retailers then turn around and sell the products to consumers at higher prices than they paid.

 

Just because one player believes that an item should be sold for 100 credits more than its material value is worth does not mean everyone believes that. Obviously, players who buy to resell know this and the eventual user of that item feels it is worth the higher cost.

 

Lastly, the 'flipper" is not ripping off the undercutter. The person who severely undercut the rest of the market either wants to sell the item fast, or did not do the research to find out what the market estimated value is. In either case, the undercutter still got the credits. It is not the "flipper's" fault that he knows he can get more credits for that item.

[Master-Nala]

Flippers are good for supply. Flippers stabilize prices and counter irrational deflation. I spent years making this argument in City of Heroes and people still didn't believe it and I doubt folks here will. So let me give you the other big argument against this. MMORPG economies are a form of PvP. It is a part of the game. The goal isn't to make a perfectly efficient market.

[planet_J]

Lockouts are the worst idea I have ever heard of! What about people with listings that expire?

 

How about this: if you list an item for less than 95% of the lowest sale price on the market...the GTN takes 99% of your sale price as a fee...

[TheNahash]

Yeah, relisting lock outs dont stop undercutting and honestly I'm baffled how anyone comes up with that?

 

um, what?

In your OP you said it yourself:

 

So yeah, you can still buy that speeder for 1 million and hope in 7-14 days the price hasnt dropped huge

 

isn't that the definition of "stopping undercutters"? If someone can't sell something for a profit when the majority of the prices on the GTN for that specific item are high, what are the chances he'll be willing to buy that item and resell it 2 weeks from the date of purchase, with the risk of it being listed by 2-3 more players at an even lower price than he bought it for?

 

What you are asking for is for Bioware to stop undercutters, but because you know that is something a lot of people do, you are taking the indirect approach and asking for a timer.

Why even go there? Why don't you just ask Bioware to make every item bought from the GTN BoP, so you'll be certain no one's going to undercut you?

No need to dance around it.

 

Those who play the market don't rely on "hope". They want to be able to relist something when the prices are still high. You (and I'm sure other players/crafters) don't like that.

 

As for those that compare real-life economies with...the GTN and find undercutting immoral because it is immoral in the real world (and I agree) or wrong or whatever I just have to say...wow.

This is a game.

A game where killing other players is encouraged.

A game where murder and annihilation are part of daily quests.

But yeah, playing the market is just plain wrong...

 

You might wanna check real life at the door when you're playing an MMO, people.

 

As for me, personally either way doesnt matter to me.

I have every single craft at 400 and even more alts running material missions.

I join in on 3 hard mode Ops and com runs every week.

ALL my 50s are in 61 armor and are working on TFB Dread guard gear

In other words, im self sufficient,

I think ive made 5 purchases on GTN since launch

 

This proposal was to address a clear and obvious problem issue in game that even I, someone that doesnt even use the system, could clearly see.

 

You do realize that Bioware doesn't really care what happens on the GTN, right?

If they wanted to somehow control the economy they would've placed conditions and mechanics similar to the Cartel Items and most importantly regarding the highest price an item can be sold for. As it is right now, the only thing Bioware has any control over are the items themselves. If they decide to make a rare drop super rare or vice versa that has an effect on the market. Other than that, it's not their job (and it shouldn't be) to make the GTN a place people would dread to buy from. People would just fill up General Chat with offers and the whole game would be an endless auction house.

Edited January 28, 2013 by TheNahash

[Raansu]

You people are still going on about this? Seriously, who cares? I'm going to undercut you, then you buy my item and re-list it. I laugh as you put it back onto the GTN for a higher price while I undercut you yet again and all the while I'm still getting money out of it. See where I'm going with this? The majority of the time you are most likely going to lose money doing something like that because someone will ALWAYS undercut you. If it works once in awhile then great, but I'd say most of the time they are losing credits doing that.

[anonnn]

A lot of very naive people around here. Price fixing in the real world would get a person landed in jail. It's illegal, period. There's no possibility of any argument in favor of price fixing. Most of what has been posted to "defend" people's right to buy and sell however they please on the GTN is, in fact, in favor of the maximum re-selling constraints already described, if you can summon even an ounce of idea of ethical standards concerning the issue. And if you look closely and objectively, people claiming that the GTN market eventually balances anyway are proving the entire point in favor of maximum constraints (just reread the sentence closely until you understand).

 

What we're talking about here is putting some kind of system in place to prevent price fixing on the GTN. Don't get yourself agape at how difficult that seems to implement... either they have a database whiz on staff or they don't. And that was just a once-through idea of how to thwart price fixers. They could alternatively add diagnostic systems that find price-fixers, and track the activities of blatant price-inflaters who choke the low-price supplies of goods on purpose in order to resell it all at ugly prices. Another solution is to make resources Bound To Legacy once purchased off the GTN or traded (now my favorite solution); it seems overly limiting but would guarantee that the resource bought off the GTN is an orginally-harvested item and not from a reseller who choked off all the lower-priced same resource. People would just learn to not pre-purchase large stacks of resources.

 

I know lots of people like the idea of an empire of wealth-building with no constraints, and even are of the belief that that is the American way; however at some point you have to defer to real ethics and fairness and honesty and all that somesuch that so many people like to discourage from entering real discussion. I could be more direct by saying "don't try to rip people off" but that just results in sniveling ratty arguments in retort to the reminder of their own conscience.

 

The implication is of course that price fixing is already going on in SWToR on a regular basis. And don't be so naive: if someone has 25M in credits saved up, they can choke the supply of any single item or resource indefinitely... and then charge exorbitant amounts of money for the resources and actually get people here and there buying it up. Don't even try to call that sort of low-down activity a free-market-economy; in the real world people doing that are landed in jail. It's a type of thievery - in any MMO, people who thieve have their accounts canceled, anyone caught price fixing in SWToR in a formal and sustained way should not be allowed to remain a subscriber.

 

Either you understand the ethics involved in what I'm describing, or you don't.

 

Say yes to Bind To Legacy for purchased/traded resources.

[Master-Nala]

A lot of very naive people around here. Price fixing in the real world would get a person landed in jail. It's illegal, period. There's no possibility of any argument in favor of price fixing. Most of what has been posted to "defend" people's right to buy and sell however they please on the GTN is, in fact, in favor of the maximum re-selling constraints already described, if you can summon even an ounce of idea of ethical standards concerning the issue. And if you look closely and objectively, people claiming that the GTN market eventually balances anyway are proving the entire point in favor of maximum constraints (just reread the sentence closely until you understand).

 

You don't understand what price fixing is. Flippers cannot control the behavior of others, nor do they have any sort of secret cabal to keep prices high. In fact, flipping couldn't even exist in the presence of price fixing as no goods would enter the market at a low enough price to make a profit.

 

Price fixing can only exist where all the producers of a product will agree to sell a good or service at a particular price. That's not what is happening here. Here some producers buy up rivals in order to strengthen their market. That happens all the time.

[KillaDeuce]

I don't think this is a good idea at all. But am not even worried about it.

 

Personally, (maybe someone else has) I have never played a game that does anything like this with its player market.

 

 

We already know that EAware is able to track item prices and such on the market. They have done nothing to restrict anything like this from happening so far.

 

 

I doubt EAware will put any resources into doing anything like this in the foreseeable future.

 

So yeah commenting anymore on it is a waste of time. Surprised I said this much. LOL

[Raansu]

A lot of very naive people around here. Price fixing in the real world would get a person landed in jail. It's illegal, period. There's no possibility of any argument in favor of price fixing. Most of what has been posted to "defend" people's right to buy and sell however they please on the GTN is, in fact, in favor of the maximum re-selling constraints already described, if you can summon even an ounce of idea of ethical standards concerning the issue. And if you look closely and objectively, people claiming that the GTN market eventually balances anyway are proving the entire point in favor of maximum constraints (just reread the sentence closely until you understand).

 

What we're talking about here is putting some kind of system in place to prevent price fixing on the GTN. Don't get yourself agape at how difficult that seems to implement... either they have a database whiz on staff or they don't. And that was just a once-through idea of how to thwart price fixers. They could alternatively add diagnostic systems that find price-fixers, and track the activities of blatant price-inflaters who choke the low-price supplies of goods on purpose in order to resell it all at ugly prices. Another solution is to make resources Bound To Legacy once purchased off the GTN or traded (now my favorite solution); it seems overly limiting but would guarantee that the resource bought off the GTN is an orginally-harvested item and not from a reseller who choked off all the lower-priced same resource. People would just learn to not pre-purchase large stacks of resources.

 

I know lots of people like the idea of an empire of wealth-building with no constraints, and even are of the belief that that is the American way; however at some point you have to defer to real ethics and fairness and honesty and all that somesuch that so many people like to discourage from entering real discussion. I could be more direct by saying "don't try to rip people off" but that just results in sniveling ratty arguments in retort to the reminder of their own conscience.

 

The implication is of course that price fixing is already going on in SWToR on a regular basis. And don't be so naive: if someone has 25M in credits saved up, they can choke the supply of any single item or resource indefinitely... and then charge exorbitant amounts of money for the resources and actually get people here and there buying it up. Don't even try to call that sort of low-down activity a free-market-economy; in the real world people doing that are landed in jail. It's a type of thievery - in any MMO, people who thieve have their accounts canceled, anyone caught price fixing in SWToR in a formal and sustained way should not be allowed to remain a subscriber.

 

Either you understand the ethics involved in what I'm describing, or you don't.

 

Say yes to Bind To Legacy for purchased/traded resources.

 

The current GTN is fine the way it is. I don't see why you care so much.

[Petnil]

i actually kinda of like the idea of making everything you buy of GTM bind. Make it BoL so we can still buy on main and send to alts. It´s a better fix than a lockout imo. Ofc making craftet items with bop mats shouldn´t effect the items that are craftet.

 

 

The only "problem" with this is the people who play the GTM game.

[Kalfear]

i actually kinda of like the idea of making everything you buy of GTM bind. Make it BoL so we can still buy on main and send to alts. It´s a better fix than a lockout imo. Ofc making craftet items with bop mats shouldn´t effect the items that are craftet.

 

 

The only "problem" with this is the people who play the GTM game.

 

While BoL wouldnt bother me in the least

It would not address the concern that someone might buy something wrongly and then not be able to place it back on GTN

 

I guess a 2 day timer (like whats on tionesse, columi, Rakata, ect gear currently) would eliminate that concern and it could hard code that item could only be relisted at same purchase value or lower.

 

But that one "escape" clause would have to be in for those people that buy things wrongly.

 

I got more then a few guildies that have purchased something only to find they didnt need it after the fact

[MaximusRex]

Even if there is a relist wait time that won't do anything to the flipping behavior, it will still be better to buy low and relist later at a higher price.

 

In fact it it would likely make materials less available then more available rather then more available as the OP posits. This would serve to drive up rarity and prices even more making it more worthwhile to strip the GTN of resources in order to monopolize those markets, creating severe supply rarities and rapid inflation of prices.

[PetFish]

This is one of the most ridiculous suggestions I've ever seen.

 

I can't believe people actually think that the small % of players who actually keep an eye on the market and use their patience and skill to make money is a problem.

 

"Hey, I play the market, but anyone who just PvE's is making too much money and should be locked out of looting for 7-14 days once they get 50k/day! It's not fair that people can have 6 toons and run dailies every single day and make so much money while I toil away on the GTN."

 

Give me a break.

[ArenRakescar]

Flippers are good for supply. Flippers stabilize prices and counter irrational deflation. I spent years making this argument in City of Heroes and people still didn't believe it and I doubt folks here will.

 

Couldn't agree more. The benefits of a stable economy are innumerable - it protects both the buyer and the seller because they can evaluate the price of an item against it's established average. Conversely, a wildly fluctuating economy leads to rampant gouging.

 

This established average value (aka going rate) is really just another form of community consensus, that is arrived at through market forces of supply and demand and further influenced by factors like intrinsic value. It is not some figure that a flipper sucked out of his thumb.

 

Without consensus you have chaos.

 

Would I personally spend ~50K on a slicing mission? No, probably not. But I could do it and still not be ripped off because the going rate for everything that is derived from augments support that price tag. See how wonderful the world is when you can make informed decisions like these?

[Raansu]

You must make a killer amount of money on stocks kalfear.

 

[Raansu]

I'd be honest with you, but then I would most likely get an infraction for it due to over zealous mods.