Same gender romance discussion

[Diviciacus]

This could be avoided entirely by allowing the player to choose the gender of both parents, and explain the child as the result of retro-advanced technology or that they adopted the child as a baby if the parents are the same gender. It's a fairly simple solution, but clearly no one at Bethseda thought of it.

 

Keep in mind that Bethesda has a terrible track record the last couple of years with anything other than the generic stubbly white dude protagonist.

 

Remember when they tried to tell us that "women were harder to code" when they said there'd be no female playable characters in whatever recycled Assassin's Creed they were on at the time?

[SithKoriandr]

The reason people are upset is because starting with an opposite sex partner and baby literally takes away the choice to play a "pure" homosexual character. You're either straight or somewhat bisexual. (Not that there's anything wrong with either choice on their own, just taken in this context it's problematic because the choice to play a homosexual character is not an option, basically it's homosexual erasure.)

 

It is pretty clear that this family is going to come up later in the game as an important plot point (otherwise, why put them in the game at all?). You won't have the choice to avoid it entirely, so basically it's going to follow the character around in the game, and that idea bothers some people. (And it's still a problem even if the other romances in Fallout 4 are like the ones in Skyrim.)

 

This could be avoided entirely by allowing the player to choose the gender of both parents, and explain the child as the result of retro-advanced technology or that they adopted the child as a baby if the parents are the same gender. It's a fairly simple solution, but clearly no one at Bethseda thought of it.

 

Bethseda easily thought of it and said "We're not going to please everyone." Personally, I would have LOVED for them to have just made him gay, make a big deal about it in the press and in the game, and see how well it sells. Best way to see just how big the audience is

[ChazDoit]

Keep in mind that Bethesda has a terrible track record the last couple of years with anything other than the generic stubbly white dude protagonist.

 

Remember when they tried to tell us that "women were harder to code" when they said there'd be no female playable characters in whatever recycled Assassin's Creed they were on at the time?

 

Uh... if Bathesda has been working on the Assassin's Creed franchise, this is the first I hear of it.

 

As far as I know the Fallout and Elder Scroll franchises let you customize who you're going to play (including skin color) I don't know what's wrong with beign a "stubbly white dude", a good amount of game developers happen to be just that.

[SelinaH]

It's unsettling that Bathesda can't even make a character that is some kind of family man because that would upset gay gamers.

Gay people have families, too.

[Diviciacus]

Uh... if Bathesda has been working on the Assassin's Creed franchise, this is the first I hear of it.

 

As far as I know the Fallout and Elder Scroll franchises let you customize who you're going to play (including skin color) I don't know what's wrong with beign a "stubbly white dude", a good amount of game developers happen to be just that.

 

My bad, that was Ubisoft. I'm not 100% sure how I managed to make that connection.

[ChazDoit]

Gay people have families, too.

 

Sorry, It was not my intent to imply the contrary, however it seems to be the case some are upset a this type of family in particular.

 

More options are better of course, but people shouldn't be angry at Bathesda.

Edited July 28, 2015 by ChazDoit

[warshan]

Well if Bioware has learned anything from Mass affect, witch lets get this out swtor is a watered down version of mass effect with a star wars skin at least as far as the story and npc interaction systems go. Now then back to this discussion at hand Bioware could mess up with this like they did in Mass effect or they could learn from that and make them good.

[BartElroy]

Yeah. I suspect it's going to be "Here's one bi female companion for both factions and one bi male companion for both factions, have fun."

 

I maxed affection with Risha on my lady smuggler this morning and Risha came within a whisker of proposing to her, talking about how she can't imagine life without her and whenever she tries to think of the future the lady smuggler is always there with her.

 

If it weren't for the fact that this is TOR, I would have been expecting Risha at that point to confess she's always thought of herself as straight but has been having strange feelings about the lady smuggler.

 

I didn't really have that issue with Risha, because I haven't maxed her affection yet, but my Female (Cathar) Jedi Knight is smitten something aweful with Kira. Like, "Let's leave the order, settle down and raise kittens," level of smitten. She also cried herself to sleep over Tala-Reh. That completely tore her heart out.

[Zandilar]

Sorry, It was not my intent to imply the contrary, however it seems to be the case some are upset a this type of family in particular.

 

More options are better of course, but people shouldn't be angry at Bathesda.

 

No, it's not the family that's the problem ChazDoit. I've never seen anyone making it about the family.

 

It's the lack of a choice in it.

 

If we want to create homosexual characters, we can't. Not if we're forced into a heterosexual relationship at the start of the game.

 

The only way we can get things to change is to stand up and call Bethseda on their tunnel vision. If that makes us seem angry at them, so be it. On a personal level I'm not angry, just disappointed. I'm still going to buy the game, though.

[CharagonIGN]

Keep in mind that Bethesda has a terrible track record the last couple of years with anything other than the generic stubbly white dude protagonist.

 

Remember when they tried to tell us that "women were harder to code" when they said there'd be no female playable characters in whatever recycled Assassin's Creed they were on at the time?

 

Was that about the same time Rare announced they were rebooting Sonic the Hedgehog with "Sonic Boom" for the Xbox One or the time that Capcom introduced Freddy Kruger to the Mortal Kombat vs. The Walking Dead franchise?

Edited July 28, 2015 by CharagonIGN

[sentientomega]

I didn't really have that issue with Risha, because I haven't maxed her affection yet, but my Female (Cathar) Jedi Knight is smitten something aweful with Kira. Like, "Let's leave the order, settle down and raise kittens," level of smitten.

 

I've not gotten Kira's affection that high on my Mirialan Jedi, I live in hope.

 

She also cried herself to sleep over Tala-Reh. That completely tore her heart out.

 

Very much this, she very much regretted the need that this Voss felt that led her to sacrifice herself as she did.

[Cythereal]

I've not gotten Kira's affection that high on my Mirialan Jedi, I live in hope..

 

I maxed Kira's affection on my lady Knight, and there's nothing comparable to Risha going "I want to spend the rest of my life with you in a totally not gay way but I can't imagine life without you." Same for Akavi, Nadia, Temple, Kaliyo, and Mako - haven't maxed affection with Elara, Vette, or Jaesa yet, but Risha stands out.

[ChazDoit]

If we want to create homosexual characters, we can't.

 

The sexual orientation of your character was not even relevant on Fallout 3 and it was player defined in New Vegas but there weren't even any romances like the ones Bioware makes. If they follow the same path, who your character likes to have sex with in Fallout 4 should not really be an issue to the story.

 

Like I said before, it's a good idea for characters to be bisexual, so it's up to the players who they want to flirt with, and as far as I know that's how it was in previous Fallout games.

 

The way I see Bathesda wanted to create a nice meld of character background and gameplay tutorial, like in Fallout 3 when your mom died in childbirth, and you have your dad, and you get to grow up with your character, in this case your character has a family, wife and kid during the tutorial... nobody said you won't be able to engage in homosexual relationships (once you get out of the vault) if that's something one wants to pursue in the next Fallout game.

 

So no, I don't think Bathesda is stopping anyone from being gay ingame, and until I hear more information Im going to assume you'll be able to at least flirt with people of the same sex like in the previous installment.

 

EDIT: My main character in swtor is gay, by the way, just putting it out there. I'm not looking to hate on anyone here.

Edited July 28, 2015 by ChazDoit

[Zandilar]

The sexual orientation of your character was not even relevant on Fallout 3 and it was player defined in New Vegas but there weren't even any romances like the ones Bioware makes. If they follow the same path, who your character likes to have sex with in Fallout 4 should not really be an issue to the story.

 

You're not getting it. Sure, your character can flirt exclusively with same gendered NPCs in the game. But that spouse and child will always be in that character's background. It will probably come up at some point.

 

This has some implications for the character and the story. It means that yes, who your character has sex with will indeed be relevant to the story - a child who is a genetic offspring is not produced without sex (at least, not without some kind of medical intervention, anyway). The fact that your character once had heterosexual sex seems like it will be relevant to the plot. (I could be wrong, it could be something that's never mentioned again in the game, but leaving out something that significant form your character's past would be bad storytelling on behalf of Bethseda.)

 

Like I said before, it's a good idea for characters to be bisexual, so it's up to the players who they want to flirt with, and as far as I know that's how it was in previous Fallout games.

 

It's an even better idea to offer players the choice to determine the sexuality of their characters. This spouse and child sticks in the craw of every player who wants a gold star homosexual character or - and none of us have mentioned this so far - an asexual and/or aromantic character.

 

So no, I don't think Bathesda is stopping anyone from being gay ingame, and until I hear more information Im going to assume you'll be able to at least flirt with people of the same sex like in the previous installment.

 

EDIT: My main character in swtor is gay, by the way, just putting it out there. I'm not looking to hate on anyone here.

 

I never said I thought they'd stop players from having their characters engaging in homosexual affairs within the game. I just said that there are some implications of giving characters opposite sex spouses and a child in their backgrounds without giving the players a choice, which cannot be ignored.

 

Bringing this back to SWTOR relevance: All of my characters are gay to one degree or another. One's probably bisexual since he takes every flirt option available, but I created him specifically to romance Theron Shan. The rest are almost all gold star lesbians. Some of them may have flirted with male NPCs if they thought it might get them what they want with less bloodshed (or for whatever other reason) though never to the point of a kiss or a FtB, but most of them have not touched a single flirt option until they came to Lemda Avesta or Lana Beniko.

 

However, I seem to recall one instance where my character was forced into an opposite gender marriage in order to secure access to something (no spoilers here), and her only other option was to kill everyone. I was quite upset at the time because she's a super LS/super gay imperial agent, she would have found another way than those extremes. (Mind you, that marriage was mentioned once in a in-game mail, and then never mentioned again. In fact, I'd forgotten all about it until I was looking at posts I'd made in the past. I am running up another IA now, so maybe I'll see if there was a third option. At least this time I won't be caught by surprise.)

 

So basically the issue is player choice. Bethseda and Bioware (at times) have both done poor jobs with it, and the only way things will change is if we make noise about it.

[Diviciacus]

You're not getting it. Sure, your character can flirt exclusively with same gendered NPCs in the game. But that spouse and child will always be in that character's background. It will probably come up at some point.

 

This has some implications for the character and the story. It means that yes, who your character has sex with will indeed be relevant to the story

 

Have you considered that maybe Bethesda wants to tell a specific story with Fallout 4, and that they simply don't care about the sexual orientation of people who will buy the game? The story of a guy with a family who loses that family in a post-apocalyptic wasteland? Do you get up in arms because DICE wanted to tell the story of Faith Connors, the skinny parkour Asian woman, and nobody else? Or what about Dishonored 2, and Emily Kaldwin?

 

Not every game has a customizable protagonist, and not every game needs a customizable protagonist.

 

However, I seem to recall one instance where my character was forced into an opposite gender marriage in order to secure access to something (no spoilers here), and her only other option was to kill everyone. I was quite upset at the time because she's a super LS/super gay imperial agent, she would have found another way than those extremes.

 

How is the Agent entering into a marriage purely for political/mission gain any different than assassinating someone, or sleeping with someone if it furthers the mission objectives? It's not like you don't hop off-planet and disappear forever immediately afterwards anyway. Or that your marriage is even legal anywhere but that planet. In fact, when I did it with my agent, I never took any [flirt] options with the guy (since my Agent is female). And when it came time to the ceremony, I even suggested consummating it, and the guy was like "You don't have to do that. We both know this is just so you can get through a loophole in a law. No sense pointlessly going through the motions."

 

I'm not sure you're allowed to get angry about that event.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Diviciacus

[AbsolutGrndZero]

Have you considered that maybe Bethesda wants to tell a specific story with Fallout 4, and that they simply don't care about the sexual orientation of people who will buy the game? The story of a guy with a family who loses that family in a post-apocalyptic wasteland? Do you get up in arms because DICE wanted to tell the story of Faith Connors, the skinny parkour Asian woman, and nobody else? Or what about Dishonored 2, and Emily Kaldwin?

 

Not every game has a customizable protagonist, and not every game needs a customizable protagonist.

 

 

 

How is the Agent entering into a marriage purely for political/mission gain any different than assassinating someone, or sleeping with someone if it furthers the mission objectives? It's not like you don't hop off-planet and disappear forever immediately afterwards anyway. Or that your marriage is even legal anywhere but that planet. In fact, when I did it with my agent, I never took any [flirt] options with the guy (since my Agent is female). And when it came time to the ceremony, I even suggested consummating it, and the guy was like "You don't have to do that. We both know this is just so you can get through a loophole in a law. No sense pointlessly going through the motions."

 

I'm not sure you're allowed to get angry about that event.

 

Yeah. My mercenary I always saw as a lesbian (I specifically didn't flirt with Torian, and when he started to show interest in Mako, I was like "Go for it!" to them), but when a nobleman on Alderaan offered to marry her just for political reasons, he needed a wife but he didn't care about the 'love' aspect, she married him. Did she sleep with him? Maybe, maybe not. Fade to black after the 'wedding' who knows what happened in the bedroom? She's a Baroness now. When leaving, it's pretty clear he never expects to see her again. Is she a "gold star" lesbian? Maybe, maybe not. As I said, we have no Idea what did or didn't happen in the bedroom, so unless Bioware adds in sexually explicit scenes to show exactly what happened, it's up to me.

Edited July 29, 2015 by AbsolutGrndZero

[sentientomega]

Yeah. My mercenary I always saw as a lesbian (I specifically didn't flirt with Torian, and when he started to show interest in Mako, I was like "Go for it!" to them), but when a nobleman on Alderaan offered to marry her just for political reasons, he needed a wife but he didn't care about the 'love' aspect, she married him. Did she sleep with him? Maybe, maybe not. Fade to black after the 'wedding' who knows what happened in the bedroom? She's a Baroness now. When leaving, it's pretty clear he never expects to see her again. Is she a "gold star" lesbian? Maybe, maybe not. As I said, we have no Idea what did or didn't happen in the bedroom, so unless Bioware adds in sexually explicit scenes to show exactly what happened, it's up to me.

 

You do know that the oik in question is a real dog when it comes to women, right? No way would he not try to bed the BH after the wedding...

 

And, given how straight-centrist the 1-50 aspect of the game was, fade to black pretty much means your "lesbian" is bi.

Edited July 29, 2015 by sentientomega

[Diviciacus]

You do know that the oik in question is a real dog when it comes to women, right? No way would he not try to bed the BH after the wedding...

 

And, given how straight-centrist the 1-50 aspect of the game was, fade to black pretty much means your "lesbian" is bi.

I'm not sure how sleeping with a guy makes a woman bisexual?

[SithKoriandr]

I'm not sure how sleeping with a guy makes a woman bisexual?

 

I would say it was that the player said their BH was lesbian, but then went about sleeping with at least one man.

[Zandilar]

Have you considered that maybe Bethesda wants to tell a specific story with Fallout 4, and that they simply don't care about the sexual orientation of people who will buy the game? The story of a guy with a family who loses that family in a post-apocalyptic wasteland? Do you get up in arms because DICE wanted to tell the story of Faith Connors, the skinny parkour Asian woman, and nobody else? Or what about Dishonored 2, and Emily Kaldwin?

 

Not every game has a customizable protagonist, and not every game needs a customizable protagonist.

 

The sexual orientation of the person buying the game is irrelevant. Straight people play bisexual and gay characters in games all the time, because the option is there and why not?

 

Bethseda obviously want the story to be a bit broader than you're saying here because you do get the option to play FO4 with a female character. "The story of a person with a family who loses that family..." rather than "The story of a guy..." But a family is not necessarily a man and woman and their offspring. It can be two men or two women or just one man or one woman and their offspring or their grandchildren or their nieces and nephews or their adopted children. They could have told that story in any number of different ways.

 

I didn't get up in arms about Faith Connors because frankly, we need more games with female only protagonists. Not that I played Mirror's Edge. I didn't play the first Dishonored because it was a male only protagonist, more likely to play Dishonored 2 because of Emily (who is one of two protagonists you can choose between, and apparently swap between as you play).

 

How is the Agent entering into a marriage purely for political/mission gain any different than assassinating someone, or sleeping with someone if it furthers the mission objectives? It's not like you don't hop off-planet and disappear forever immediately afterwards anyway. Or that your marriage is even legal anywhere but that planet. In fact, when I did it with my agent, I never took any [flirt] options with the guy (since my Agent is female). And when it came time to the ceremony, I even suggested consummating it, and the guy was like "You don't have to do that. We both know this is just so you can get through a loophole in a law. No sense pointlessly going through the motions."

 

I'm not sure you're allowed to get angry about that event.

 

You can flirt with the guy, and I think the consummation conversation goes differently if you do. Nonetheless, my character never flirted with him and never suggested a consummation. I'm pretty sure she'd have found another way around the laws of the land, but meh... It's water under the bridge now. Jan'neria's probably not even thought about Voss for years now - and she's rather smitten with Lana. But at the time, it had taken me by surprise and given Bioware's ongoing silence on the topic of SGRs, it really bothered me.

 

I'm not sure how sleeping with a guy makes a woman bisexual?

 

I'm going to agree with you here Diviciacus. Bisexuality is an attraction to two or more genders, and if said lesbian had slept with the guy, but had experienced no sexual attraction to him, she's probably still a lesbian.

 

Which might seem at odds about my annoyance over Fallout 4. But having a family with an other gender partner is a bit different to sleeping with an other gender person once.

[ChazDoit]

I didn't get up in arms about Faith Connors because frankly, we need more games with female only protagonists

 

Why? Games are games, they're not tools for social reengineering, and it's sickening to suggest that they are or should be.

 

I didn't think any different of women in general before or after I beat Mirror's Edge, One thing is to say it'd be cool to have a female character, but to say that we need them sounds kind of crazy and scary, need them for what exactly? Not to bring more women into gaming, because according to last year and this year market studies women are already half the gaming population.

 

EDIT: Also, we're playing a game with 8 different female protagonists, and if you go to the fleet and look around, you'll see that gamers have no issue playing as a female protagonist.

Edited July 29, 2015 by ChazDoit

[sentientomega]

and if said lesbian had slept with the guy, but had experienced no sexual attraction to him, she's probably still a lesbian.

 

You'd have to wonder why she'd bother, though; not being attracted to him, why sleep with someone you're not attracted to?

 

And before you say it, no-one in SW is going to force people to hide their true orientations through deeds inconsistent with their those identities.

Edited July 29, 2015 by sentientomega

[Quething]

Have you considered that maybe Bethesda wants to tell a specific story with Fallout 4, and that they simply don't care about the sexual orientation of people who will buy the game? The story of a guy with a family who loses that family in a post-apocalyptic wasteland? Do you get up in arms because DICE wanted to tell the story of Faith Connors, the skinny parkour Asian woman, and nobody else? Or what about Dishonored 2, and Emily Kaldwin?

 

Not every game has a customizable protagonist, and not every game needs a customizable protagonist.

 

... Fallout has a customizable protagonist. Have you ever actually played any Fallout games?

[Cythereal]

You'd have to wonder why she'd bother, though; not being attracted to him, why sleep with someone you're not attracted to?

 

And before you say it, no-one in SW is going to force people to hide their true orientations through deeds inconsistent with their those identities.

 

It's also possible for people to only realize they're gay later in life, or be reluctant to come out. There are a lot of gay people in the US with kids from heterosexual marriages that failed.

 

Going from Risha's max affection conversation with a lady smuggler, I almost expect her to be like that, a closeted bi woman (since with good reason Bioware wouldn't have her break up with a male character in the expansion on the basis that she's realized she's gay) who needs time to come to grips with her feelings for the lady smuggler.

[sentientomega]

But having a family with an other gender partner is a bit different to sleeping with an other gender person once.

 

It feels like you say the latter as though it's not that big a deal, it is for some people; I'm gay and I've known since knee-high-grasshopper-height that men, to me, just don't affect me the way some women do, and thus, the motivation to do anything like that with them is non-existent.

 

It's also possible for people to only realize they're gay later in life, or be reluctant to come out. There are a lot of gay people in the US with kids from heterosexual marriages that failed.

 

No doubt, but let us also take into account, again, that no-one in SW is forcing people to remain closeted; and unless you're living in a cave, though I can't say for sure how young you'd have to be to know, but by the early 20s at the latest.

 

Let's face it; the length of time it takes some people to come out in our own world is quite possibly largely due to the hetero-sexist mainstream media machine working centuple overtime to ensure that LGBT people are still being treated like vermin.

 

Going from Risha's max affection conversation with a lady smuggler, I almost expect her to be like that, a closeted bi woman (since with good reason Bioware wouldn't have her break up with a male character in the expansion on the basis that she's realized she's gay) who needs time to come to grips with her feelings for the lady smuggler.

 

You wish...and come to that, I likewise wish; but I'm not overly optimistic of the possibility unraveling favourably...

Edited July 29, 2015 by sentientomega