Same gender romance discussion

[SelinaH]

I think some of the issue is also gender disparity.

I'm not even going to address the gender disparity issue, because I'll just end up ranting.

 

It's probably my biggest pet peeve in this game.

[SithKoriandr]

All I can say about the current state of the game is that not being able to play a gay character from 1-50 sucks.

 

There is nothing stopping you from playing a gay character 1-50, except you. What you don't get, is to flirt with the same gender 1-50, but at the same time, the game only let's you flirt with those who would generally flirt back for the most part.

 

Even the Agent and Smuggler are generally limited to flirting with those who are going to flirt back. Even the Female Agent doesn't get to flirt with Hunter, when she thinks it's a guy the whole time! What's up with that? Not even a flirt and then a total shut down!

 

But absolutely nothing is stopping you from playing a gay character 1-50. Being gay does not mean flirt. Being gay doesn't even mean you have to have fade to black scenes. All it means is you're attracted to the same gender.

 

Now, if you're saying you're not attracted to any of the same gender characters in the 1-50 levels, well, ask the devs to make them look better!

[Zandilar]

Re: Gender Disparity

 

This is the single biggest reason why "individual sexualities" wouldn't work in this game (as it is right now). Not unless they vastly improved the number of female companions. Because either some classes wouldn't get an F/F option at all, or almost all the female companions would be bisexual. (If it were the latter, I probably wouldn't mind, as the majority of my characters are lesbians... though it would be a problem when it came to my favourite classes because the two LIs I'm not that interested in (Akaavi and Kaliyo) would likely be the bisexual ladies on the crew - because we can't deny men the chance to boink them, of course, so we won't make them gay - I'd much prefer Risha and Temple.)

 

Oddly enough, Agents get three female companions, though one is a droid. It means the crew is majority female, the only such crew in the game. I am not sure what this says.

 

There is nothing stopping you from playing a gay character 1-50, except you. What you don't get, is to flirt with the same gender 1-50, but at the same time, the game only let's you flirt with those who would generally flirt back for the most part.

 

Even the Agent and Smuggler are generally limited to flirting with those who are going to flirt back. Even the Female Agent doesn't get to flirt with Hunter, when she thinks it's a guy the whole time! What's up with that? Not even a flirt and then a total shut down!

 

But absolutely nothing is stopping you from playing a gay character 1-50. Being gay does not mean flirt. Being gay doesn't even mean you have to have fade to black scenes. All it means is you're attracted to the same gender.

 

Now, if you're saying you're not attracted to any of the same gender characters in the 1-50 levels, well, ask the devs to make them look better!

 

Sure, you can headcanon your character as gay all you like, but that's all it is. There's nothing anywhere ever to indicate that your character is gay before level 50 (if you're male and Imperial, or female and Republic, otherwise you gotta wait til 55+). Because the NPCs never initiate flirts, you can't even say "sorry, you're not my type" to anyone. It means nothing.

 

It is not representation when the player themself has to imagine their character is gay because the game doesn't let you express that in any way shape or form before a certain point.

[SithKoriandr]

Re: Gender Disparity

 

This is the single biggest reason why "individual sexualities" wouldn't work in this game (as it is right now). Not unless they vastly improved the number of female companions. Because either some classes wouldn't get an F/F option at all, or almost all the female companions would be bisexual. (If it were the latter, I probably wouldn't mind, as the majority of my characters are lesbians... though it would be a problem when it came to my favourite classes because the two LIs I'm not that interested in (Akaavi and Kaliyo) would likely be the bisexual ladies on the crew - because we can't deny men the chance to boink them, of course, so we won't make them gay - I'd much prefer Risha and Temple.)

 

Oddly enough, Agents get three female companions, though one is a droid. It means the crew is majority female, the only such crew in the game. I am not sure what this says.

 

 

 

Sure, you can headcanon your character as gay all you like, but that's all it is. There's nothing anywhere ever to indicate that your character is gay before level 50 (if you're male and Imperial, or female and Republic, otherwise you gotta wait til 55+). Because the NPCs never initiate flirts, you can't even say "sorry, you're not my type" to anyone. It means nothing.

 

It is not representation when the player themself has to imagine their character is gay because the game doesn't let you express that in any way shape or form before a certain point.

 

They're not initiating flirts, that's them either not interested in said character or gay (though that would likely mean both in this case). Room full of 10 people. One is gay. They don't stop being gay, because the other 9 aren't. So, yes, your character is gay level 1-50, you're just hurt that the character has no flirt option the whole time.

[SelinaH]

They're not initiating flirts, that's them either not interested in said character or gay (though that would likely mean both in this case). Room full of 10 people. One is gay. They don't stop being gay, because the other 9 aren't. So, yes, your character is gay level 1-50, you're just hurt that the character has no flirt option the whole time.

Way to miss the point. When people complain about being unable to play a gay character in the base game, they're generally not referring to an inability to headcanon their PC's orientation, but to the fact that a gay or lesbian player character's orientation is never acknowledged or expanded upon by the vanilla game through NPC conversations and cutscenes in the same way in which those of hetero PCs are.

 

Going by your argument, one might reasonably expect to see one out of 10 (using your numbers) "flirtable" NPCs in the base game shown as non-heterosexual, since "They don't stop being gay, because the other 9 aren't." This is not, however, what we see in-game.

 

For the record, heterosexual PCs get plenty of flirts with unwilling NPCs. To imply that gay PCs don't get flirt options simply because the subjects are "not interested" ignores this inconvenient truth.

[ForjKlahaa]

There is nothing stopping you from playing a gay character 1-50, except you. What you don't get, is to flirt with the same gender 1-50, but at the same time, the game only let's you flirt with those who would generally flirt back for the most part.

 

Even the Agent and Smuggler are generally limited to flirting with those who are going to flirt back. Even the Female Agent doesn't get to flirt with Hunter, when she thinks it's a guy the whole time! What's up with that? Not even a flirt and then a total shut down!

 

But absolutely nothing is stopping you from playing a gay character 1-50. Being gay does not mean flirt. Being gay doesn't even mean you have to have fade to black scenes. All it means is you're attracted to the same gender.

 

Now, if you're saying you're not attracted to any of the same gender characters in the 1-50 levels, well, ask the devs to make them look better!

 

What's the point of an RPG if you can't actually role play the character in game? Why include romances at all if you can just pretend that Your JK and Kira get married and live happily ever after? Why bother with a story? Why bother with a game? Why don't Bioware just sell you a pen and a piece of paper and say "Make it up!"? The whole point of any of this is that we get to experience (visually and audibly) the stories of our characters.

 

If my PC cannot, in any way, cannot express his attraction towards men but is actually forced into romantic moments with women, then that is the game deciding he is straight for me... at least for the duration of the main story, which is 90% of the content and the only content available to non-subscribers.

 

I've said it before that this is not solely about romance and I'd like to reaffirm that. Flirt options are one way that the game lets you express the sexuality of your character but there are other ways to acknowledge it as well like casual conversation. I want to play as a proud gay man (even if it means no romance) but I can't. The best I can do is play as a closeted man for 90% of the game and then suddenly come out at level 50 (imp) or 55 (pub).

 

BIoware is under no obligation to change any of this just as I am under no obligation to pay money for this content. I don't hate them or anything (my favourite developer by a mile in fact) and I know they want to "fix" things as much as things can be fixed but it's kind of a deal breaker for me that I don't play RPGs that don't let me play as a gay character. I'm not going to b-tch and moan or plead with Bioware to include this stuff. They know the score and they'll either address the issue to my satisfaction or they won't. All I can do is vote with my wallet.

[ForjKlahaa]

As for set sexualities vs. playersexuality, I agree with anyone who says that having some bi, some gay, some straight is ideal but it only works if there is equality in the number of options which has never ever been the case in any Bioware game (not even in DA2 with the addition of Sebastian). In a game like this one where LIs are class restricted it makes it even harder.

 

We already know that there is no room for a lesbian (not bi) LI companion pre-60 unless we start taking options away from straight guys. With guys, you could make pre-existing companions gay but then straight women would be bummed because they already have fewer options than men and they're not getting any more when Bioware decides to add new romance content. There will basically be backlash whatever BW decides to do. I personally don't want to feel the wrath of straight players who wanted to experience new romance content only to find it is gender locked. It was bad enough with DAI when the guys found out they couldn't bang the hot blonde elf and then spent the next year calling all females in DAI ugly and mannish.

 

So if playersexuality solves all this then I don't care any more about having gay (not bi) characters because the representation isn't worth it... especially if the game plays in such a way that, for all intents and purposes, the character is in fact gay. For example, in DA2, Anders seemed pretty gay to me (hadn't played Awakenings at first) while Fenris seemed bi because he was interested in (male) Hawke but hooked up with Isabela. In games where characters can be alive or dead, good or evil, single or married, happy or miserable - all depending on the decisions you make, the characters are already so malleable that switching sexualities doesn't even register with me. If you include characters that don't bang on and on about their heterosexual exploits (Hello, Doc) or don't turn their sexuality into The Big Issue (Hello, Dorian) it all ends up playing the same anyway.

 

Taking the DA series as an example, what we would end up with is everyone being bi but some characters would have a hetero-leaning past (Iron Bull) and others a gay-leaning past (Anders with Karl), and others still would have no past (Merrill) and then it would just be up to the player to fill in the blanks about what this means for the relationship between their PC and that character. All these characters were technically bi but you could play some of them as completely straight or gay if you wanted.

 

N.B. I just realised that my saying "I don't care about representation" was a stupid remark because I do, deeply. What I mean was I'm tired of fighting for something that actually limits my enjoyment of a game because there will never be "equal" representation. I'm not changing it now though.

Edited August 30, 2015 by ForjKlahaa

[Cordarn]

This discussion has been going on for over a year (I think); they have started adding characters in game for people to flirt with whether its same sex or not as requested (*cough* demanded *cough) by those who wanted it. Why exactly is this discussion still going?

[Foelhe]

This discussion has been going on for over a year (I think); they have started adding characters in game for people to flirt with whether its same sex or not as requested (*cough* demanded *cough) by those who wanted it. Why exactly is this discussion still going?

 

Because there's still no SGRA. Anything else confusing you?

Edited August 30, 2015 by Foelhe

[sentientomega]

If you include characters that don't bang on and on about their heterosexual exploits (Hello, Doc) or don't turn their sexuality into The Big Issue (Hello, Dorian) it all ends up playing the same anyway.

 

I take it you mean Torian Cadera? If so, what's his issue?

 

As for Doc, there's never been a more "straight-proud, girls who don't like me are obviously mentally ill and don't let my ultra-creepiness fool you for one second because I'm the Force's gift to all women everywhere" kind of character.

 

If possible, in the future, out the airlock he goes.

Edited August 30, 2015 by sentientomega

[Foelhe]

I take it you mean Torian Cadera? If so, what's his issue?

 

I think he means Dorian Pavus from DA:I, and if he does I'm inclined to agree. It's frustrating to finally get a gay guy on the team and immediately turn his personal plot into a Very Special Episode about how Homophobia Is Bad, Children. I still prefer set sexuality to playersexuality (when they can pull it off, anyway), but if there's one character who'd change my mind, it's Dorian.

[CharmerLeonhart]

Because there's still no SGRA. Anything else confusing you?

 

Exactly.

 

Until we get confirmation SGRAs are in KOTFE, we have the right to continue discussing this issue.

Edited August 30, 2015 by CharmerLeonhart

[Zandilar]

This discussion has been going on for over a year (I think); they have started adding characters in game for people to flirt with whether its same sex or not as requested (*cough* demanded *cough) by those who wanted it. Why exactly is this discussion still going?

 

FYI, various incarnations of this thread have existed since before launch in 2011.

 

This discussion is still going on because we still have no same-gender romance-able companions.

 

Makeb has two temporary LIs, one for Republic (a bisexual female, Dr Lemda Avesta) and one for Empire (a gay male, Cytharat).

 

SoR has two temporary LIs, one from the Republic and one from the Empire. One, Lana, has been announced as a companion for KotFE, but who knows if we'll be able to continue a romance with her (particularly if you're LS Republic). We have seen no signs of Theron returning in KotFE as yet, though I'm putting money that he'll return in some form or another, though again, who knows if we'll be able to continue a romance with him either.

 

Bioware has been very hamfisted in the way they have handled same gender flirtations/romances in this game. There're no options, still... after 3, almost 4 years basically - despite promises they've made along the way. That is why this thread is still going.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Zandilar

[SelinaH]

Oh, didn't you get the memo? We now have two plot relevant characters we get to make kissy-faces at for five minutes before they break up with us and fly far, far away.

 

We're supposed to be happy, we are undeserving of anything more

 

/sarcasm

At least Lana is known to be an actual companion in the expansion -- although it's yet to be confirmed that her romance arc with the PC will continue where it left off.

 

Still no word on Theron Shan's presence/absence and what that might mean for gay male (and straight female) PCs.

[Pietrastor]

Re: Gender Disparity

 

This is the single biggest reason why "individual sexualities" wouldn't work in this game (as it is right now). Not unless they vastly improved the number of female companions. Because either some classes wouldn't get an F/F option at all, or almost all the female companions would be bisexual.

Old companions (sans few potential males that didn't have a romace) don't matter. Think of potential KOTFE make-up. Senya could be lesbian, why not. It's not like there's lack of straight male options already in the game.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Pietrastor

[SelinaH]

Old companions (sans few potential males that didn't have a romace) don't matter. Think of potential KOTFE make-up. Senya could be lesbian, why not. It's not like there's lack of straight male options already in the game.

I'm just imagining the forum outcry if Vaylin ends up as a romance option -- but only for women.

[Damask_Rose]

I'm just imagining the forum outcry if Vaylin ends up as a romance option -- but only for women.

 

I'm fervently hoping she isn' t a flirt for anyone. The primary villains shouldn't be romanceable! If Vaylin is romanceable, then Valkorion should be too. I' m a firm believer in parity.

[Diviciacus]

For the record, heterosexual PCs get plenty of flirts with unwilling NPCs. To imply that gay PCs don't get flirt options simply because the subjects are "not interested" ignores this inconvenient truth.

 

Only if you're a Smuggler/IA or Male Warrior/Knight. The other four and a half classes get almost completely screwed, and not in the fun way.

 

Because there's still no SGRA. Anything else confusing you?

 

Last I checked Theron/Lana were SGRA if you were so desirous. Just because they're not companions (yet) does not make it untrue.

 

Old companions (sans few potential males that didn't have a romace) don't matter. Think of potential KOTFE make-up. Senya could be lesbian, why not. It's not like there's lack of straight male options already in the game.

 

This is a good point. KOTFE rather does have a bit of a "1-55 doesn't matter, and SOR only matters for the clever foreshadowing" vibe. They got as reset-button as they could without scrapping the game itself. Illo dicto, it would be nice to see the addition of SGR stuff (even if it's just isolated flirts) to the vanilla content, but that's probably asking too much.

 

As for Doc, there's never been a more "straight-proud, girls who don't like me are obviously mentally ill and don't let my ultra-creepiness fool you for one second because I'm the Force's gift to all women everywhere" kind of character.

 

If possible, in the future, out the airlock he goes.

Doc is pretty douchey, yes. But your willingness to kill him because of his personality does seem the tiniest bit hypocritical, though. Whatever happened to the moral high ground?

 

I'm fervently hoping she isn' t a flirt for anyone. The primary villains shouldn't be romanceable! If Vaylin is romanceable, then Valkorion should be too. I' m a firm believer in parity.

The only lightsaber I'm sticking in either of them is the non-euphemism kind.

[sentientomega]

Last I checked Theron/Lana were SGRA if you were so desirous. Just because they're not companions (yet) does not make it untrue.

 

SGRA stands for Same Gender Romance Arc, and it isn't really an arc if it gets chopped off in the middle and we find ourselves once again in backward '77 come 4.0. I'm just hoping that since BW is being silent on that issue, it's so they can just slip it in unannounced, like they do with some other controversial changes during updates.

 

Doc is pretty douchey, yes. But your willingness to kill him because of his personality does seem the tiniest bit hypocritical, though. Whatever happened to the moral high ground?

 

Who said anything about killing him? He's far too useful to waste, I have him as a companion on two separate characters; though we never talk privately. Not since I learned how badly he takes rejection...

Edited August 30, 2015 by sentientomega

[SelinaH]

Only if you're a Smuggler/IA or Male Warrior/Knight. The other four and a half classes get almost completely screwed, and not in the fun way.

Are you kidding me? A sizable chunk of the female Warrior's interactions with her romance companion are flirts with an unwilling subject.

 

Either way, it makes no difference: As you yourself state, there is precedent for unrequited flirts for heterosexual player characters. The implication (made by another poster) that a reason non-hetero PCs don't get base game flirts is that the devs didn't want to allow flirt options to be rejected by NPCs either ignores this precedent completely or sets a double standard for gay and lesbian characters as compared to hetero PCs.

 

That's not to say that I'm advocating for a retrofitting of SGR into the 1-50 game. (As unfortunate as the situation is, I feel as though that ship has long sailed.) I would like to see the dev team become more proactive about inclusiveness and representation as we move forward into new material.

[Diviciacus]

Are you kidding me? A sizable chunk of the female Warrior's interactions with her romance companion are flirts with an unwilling subject.

 

Either way, it makes no difference: As you yourself state, there is precedent for unrequited flirts for heterosexual player characters. The implication (made by another poster) that a reason non-hetero PCs don't get base game flirts is that the devs didn't want to allow flirt options to be rejected by NPCs either ignores this precedent completely or sets a double standard for gay and lesbian characters as compared to hetero PCs.

 

That's not to say that I'm advocating for a retrofitting of SGR into the 1-50 game. (As unfortunate as the situation is, I feel as though that ship has long sailed.) I would like to see the dev team become more proactive about inclusiveness and representation as we move forward into new material.

 

Bolded is the part I glossed over originally while reading your post. There's exactly two NPC's with a flirt option in their dialogue who will tell a male smuggler no (the Jedi on Tattooine and the Togruta Jedi Master who is a friend of Risha). AFAIK, no NPC tells a female smuggler no, and no NPC rebuffs an agent of either gender. Virtually every flirt option in the game is an affirmative, so what I was trying to point out was that less than half the classes (since only Male Warrior/KNight get flirt options outside of the romance companion) actually even get to flirt, regardless of sexual orientation or whether their advances are shot down (which is almost never).

Edited August 30, 2015 by Diviciacus

[Cythereal]

Bolded is the part I glossed over originally while reading your post. There's exactly two NPC's with a flirt option in their dialogue who will tell a male smuggler no (the Jedi on Tattooine and the Togruta Jedi Master who is a friend of Risha). AFAIK, no NPC tells a female smuggler no, and no NPC rebuffs an agent of either gender. Virtually every flirt option in the game is an affirmative, so what I was trying to point out was that less than half the classes (since only Male Warrior/KNight get flirt options outside of the romance companion) actually even get to flirt, regardless of whether their advances are shot down (which is almost never).

 

You're making a false equivalency. I'm all for more flirt options for straight characters. I'm also all for more flirt options for bi and gay characters.

[SelinaH]

what I was trying to point out was that less than half the classes (since only Male Warrior/KNight get flirt options outside of the romance companion) actually even get to flirt, regardless of whether their advances are shot down (which is almost never).

Are you counting planetary arcs and side quests, or only class story? Because there are flirtable (even FTB) NPCs outside of the class storyine.

 

Just off the top of my head, for Imperials,

 

Darth Lachris on Balmorra for male characters -- which culminates in a fade-to-black,

 

and

 

for female PCs, that guy who gives the Nar Shaddaa Bonus Series in the NS spaceport (although I've never availed myself of the option, and I'm not sure who has).

 

 

If you include just these two NPCs, every character Imperial side has the option to flirt (whether or not it's a palatable or attractive option).

 

Aside from these, many (if not most) classes also have at least one non-companion flirtable NPC within the class storyline (I vaguely remember the female Warrior and both Inquisitors being shortchanged in this regard).

 

Edit: The female Inquisitor has flirt options with

 

Urtel, the Sith on Alderaan, as part of the class story.

 

Male gets

 

Rylee Dray, part of the Inquisitor's cult on Nar Shaddaa.

 

Edited August 30, 2015 by SelinaH

[Foelhe]

Last I checked Theron/Lana were SGRA if you were so desirous. Just because they're not companions (yet) does not make it untrue.

 

Depends how long a romance has to be before you call it an arc, but fair enough. There's no companion romance, then. Which might be changing when they join the team, so that's something.

 

As for the unrequited flirts, I kind of doubt I'd be satisfied if they threw in a couple SGR flirts just so an NPC could go "Sorry, I'm straight" at us. Not that it really matters - if they'd been able to put in same-sex flirts at all they probably would've been able to get some reciprocity. Not much point drawing the line there.

[ForjKlahaa]

I think he means Dorian Pavus from DA:I, and if he does I'm inclined to agree. It's frustrating to finally get a gay guy on the team and immediately turn his personal plot into a Very Special Episode about how Homophobia Is Bad, Children. I still prefer set sexuality to playersexuality (when they can pull it off, anyway), but if there's one character who'd change my mind, it's Dorian.

 

Yeah I meant Dorian from DA. I don't know how I feel about his story. On the one hand, I hear the devs talking about how his story really resonated with players going through something similar so it has value in that respect; on the other hand, the father-disapproves-of-his-gay-son-until-he-learns-to-accept-him story is THE most played out gay trope to ever exist. I'm in my early 30s and I've always made a point to follow gay characters on TV shows and in films since my early teens so that is around 20 years of seeing the same story over and over and over and writers are still doing it. I don't know if David Gaider was trying to educate people or what but making gay people sit through that after school special for the millionth time when most of us lived it or at least know someone who did makes me roll my eyes so hard.

 

More on topic, I took a break from my IA for a couple of reasons: On the off chance (no hope really) that there might be some 1-50 SGR content coming with KOFTE and also that being able to respec our companions to perform any combat role will also be included from 1-50 because I'm getting really fed up with Kaliyo but I need her because I am really crap at playing a sniper.

 

So I started a SW and I think I prefer his personality (and definitely his voice) anyway. Is Malavai Quinn going to break my heart? I obviously can't tell just by looking at screen shots

Edited August 31, 2015 by ForjKlahaa