Same gender romance discussion

[markcymru]

Tay-taisle. Ish. I made it up, but whenever I google it, I get websites that look they're in farsi.

 

Darn, I missed one ! !

[Tatile]

I'm still a fan of hero-sexualism. Not the most satisfying option but it solves far more problems than it creates.

 

Well, I maintain that the companions are already herosexual, so Bioware would merely be removing an otherwise arbitrary restriction.

 

If Vette will bounce on you despite the fact that you stab-murder slaves for fun and tried to do her sister for money (when you were supposed to be freeing her from slavery), then there's no reason she can't bounce on your lady bits as well.

 

(Forgive the crudeness, but sometimes it helps if we use small words when we hope Bioware might be listening. They might get intimidated by our growling lady parts, otherwise.)

[Palar]

Well, I maintain that the companions are already herosexual, so Bioware would merely be removing an otherwise arbitrary restriction.

 

If Vette will bounce on you despite the fact that you stab-murder slaves for fun and tried to do her sister for money (when you were supposed to be freeing her from slavery), then there's no reason she can't bounce on your lady bits as well.

 

(Forgive the crudeness, but sometimes it helps if we use small words when we hope Bioware might be listening. They might get intimidated by our growling lady parts, otherwise.)

 

Good old Vette - the first major dialogue for that romance comes after you have the chance to nail one of her old friends, and admit you did it to make her jealous... but companion SGR is what didn't make sense to BioWare.

[Lesaberisa]

Well, I maintain that the companions are already herosexual, so Bioware would merely be removing an otherwise arbitrary restriction.

 

Only the female companions! Sadly, not every male companion is so open minded, and will not love your female PC no matter how hard you try.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Lesaberisa

[Tatile]

Only the female companions! Sadly, not every male companion is so open minded, and will not love your female PC no matter how hard you try.

 

Well remember, "men don't need women to be whole", and of course, that the women in this game exist only for the men playing it.

[Kioma]

Well remember, "men don't need women to be whole", and of course, that the women in this game exist only for the men playing it.

 

Can't speak for all men but that's certainly not true of me.

[Tatile]

Can't speak for all men but that's certainly not true of me.

 

Sorry, shorthand for the "Straight Male Gamer/Media Consumer" archetype that's being used by various industries to justify what they do - likewise with keeping people of colour out of lead roles (see: Katniss). Before you say "Idris Elba", remember the old saying "study the exception to prove the rule" and, yes, there are some media forms coming out because suits are pulling their collective heads out of the ground and realising that their demographic isn't 99.99% white/cis/het/male, however, the idea is still stubbornly clinging on in mostly "nerd" circles.

 

It's not a personal attack, more of "look, these people think they know you, are you ok with that?"

[Kioma]

It's not a personal attack, more of "look, these people think they know you, are you ok with that?"

 

No, I knew it wasn't a personal attack. And I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I think it's an assumption on the part of the game developers/writers. (and, of course, applies to just about any media you care to name) - they're telling everybody what they should want. Which, of course, means we have to let them know they're wrong. "Here, you don't need a well-developed character to enjoy this romance/story/whatever." Well... Actually yes, I do.

 

From a consumer's perspective I have no problem with thematically appropriate characters that aren't very likeable because not every character should be an enlightened being free of bias or baggage. But every character you expect the audience to connect with, positively or negatively, should have a high degree of development. Are they a boorish lout? A patient mentor? An impetuous troublemaker? As a writer you should know why they're that kind of person, even if you never intend the audience to find out. I have a problem with facile cookie-cutter two-dimensional characters which are basically shoddy cardboard cut-outs of stereotypes that everyone's seen before.

 

...But I've probably gone on a tangent.

[Tatile]

You're right about about stereotypes and cookie-cutters, but unfortunately, Bioware have somewhat set themselves up for shallow companion characters due to a stubborn belief that story isn't important. They could have likely done more with the companions we have, but seem to refuse to do so (or their managers refuse to allow it - I should hardly believe that much of the writing team were enthusiastically agreeing to having class stories scrapped in favour of more generic dross like Makeb.)

 

It doesn't help any that while they might pay lip service to the idea of a more inclusive and wider audience, they still kiss the altar of the Straight Male Gamer.

 

()

 

Also, couple of things:

Medieval People of Colour talks about their name, and why it's important. I think what they said about the American (or white Western European as well) impressions of medieval Europe is interesting, as I'd say we have a similar affliction with science-fiction (obviously, the outlooks weighs heavily on historical fiction and fantasy) - with the exception of Star Trek (under Roddenberry), I personally can't think of many science-fiction television shows or films, particularly those that might break into the mainstream, that feature people of colour in predominant roles, or heavily.

 

I was also wondering, along that line, if the new Star Wars films will break any of the old tropes. I mean, I honestly can't remember any other black cast members than Lando Calrissian and Mace Windu? If the movies are supposed to be canon (as people keep saying, and used to say a lot attack this topic), can there really only be one black man per generation, in the entire galaxy? Really?

 

And "Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minorities" (or GSRM) as an alternative to "LGBT", on the basis that is generally more encompassing, and will stop people thinking "A" stands for "allies."

[copperjack]

It really depends of your definition of sci-fi. There are quite a few within the last ten years that I can think of. Firefly, BSG, Enterprise, Torchwood, Stargate Universe... for movies there's Pacific Rim, Iron Man, After Earth etc. Yes, it's unequal representation but it's not quite as dire as "Roddenberry was the last person to include something other than a white man in his show".

[Tatile]

It really depends of your definition of sci-fi. There are quite a few within the last ten years that I can think of. Firefly, BSG, Enterprise, Torchwood, Stargate Universe... for movies there's Pacific Rim, Iron Man, After Earth etc. Yes, it's unequal representation but it's not quite as dire as "Roddenberry was the last person to include something other than a white man in his show".

 

Nah, I just wasn't remembering anything P:

[copperjack]

Also, even though he does't play a huge role in the movies Boba Fett is incredibly popular with a lot of people and he was cast as mixed race, as was Jango Fett.

[Tatile]

Also, even though he does't play a huge role in the movies Boba Fett is incredibly popular with a lot of people and he was cast as mixed race, as was Jango Fett.

 

Jango Fett (Temuera Morrison) is Maori/White, if that's what you mean? (I'm sorry, where I'm from, "mixed race" usually just means black and white parentage.)

[copperjack]

Jango Fett (Temuera Morrison) is Maori/White, if that's what you mean? (I'm sorry, where I'm from, "mixed race" usually just means black and white parentage.)

 

Yeah , he's Maori/white and I think Daniel Logan might be full Maori. I've always heard mixed as meaning parents of any two different races. Usually white/something else but also, say, black/japanese.

[Tatile]

Yeah , he's Maori/white and I think Daniel Logan might be full Maori. I've always heard mixed as meaning parents of any two different races. Usually white/something else but also, say, black/japanese.

 

But, yes, wasn't Boba/Jango Fett supposedly getting his own stand-alone? Or were the stand-alones mere rumours when Disney proclaimed the new trilogy?

[copperjack]

But, yes, wasn't Boba/Jango Fett supposedly getting his own stand-alone? Or were the stand-alones mere rumours when Disney proclaimed the new trilogy?

 

I hadn't heard that but I just googled and it does seem that they're considering Boba Fett and Han Solo spinoffs sometime in the next 10 years or so. Could be interesting.

[Tatile]

I hadn't heard that but I just googled and it does seem that they're considering Boba Fett and Han Solo spinoffs sometime in the next 10 years or so. Could be interesting.

 

I remember people commenting that, should Boba Fett be handed back to a Maori actor, it would be one of the largest - if not the largest - silver screen roles for the Maori community. Of course if they can still say that ten years from now, that's sad.

 

God. I wonder how the face of cinema and gaming will change in the next ten years...

[copperjack]

I remember people commenting that, should Boba Fett be handed back to a Maori actor, it would be one of the largest - if not the largest - silver screen roles for the Maori community. Of course if they can still say that ten years from now, that's sad.

 

God. I wonder how the face of cinema and gaming will change in the next ten years...

 

I'm betting that the best that would happen would be him being cast as some kind of brown, partly because races seem to be interchangeable in casting as long as they look similar and partly because there's a really small pool of Maori actors. The worst that could happen would obviously be turning him white, but hopefully they don't go that direction.

 

You don't sound very hopeful for the future of cinema and gaming? Or maybe I'm just reading your tone wrong.

[Tatile]

You don't sound very hopeful for the future of cinema and gaming? Or maybe I'm just reading your tone wrong.

 

More overwhelmed. I stared at my ceiling for a little while, going over my knowledge of entertainment technology from the turn of the millennium, to about now. With the Occulus Rift, immersive 3D gaming might become, like, a common-place thing. If we can hasten the queering and colouring (for lack of a better expression) of video games and media*, we might not even have this thread** in five, ten years, because same-gender romance, queer characters... options... would be the status-quo. They'd be the 'done thing'. I'd hope they'd be 'the done thing' - it's entirely likely I could be wrong. It's entirely likely a conservative (re: racist, sexist and homophobic) element resurges and takes over our media, again.

 

 

*in thoughtful, appropriate ways, mind

**obviously not this thread, that'd be stupid, but this kind of debate thread

[copperjack]

I think it's unlikely that the conservative side would be able to do that unless the people arguing for minority representation manage to drastically alienate their allies. We've come pretty far in the last couple decades. It's not completely absurd to hope for LGB characters in television and games, and we're moving into giving them storylines beyond angsting about their sexuality. The world hasn't ended yet, so things are probably going to keep making progress.

[Tatile]

I think it's unlikely that the conservative side would be able to do that unless the people arguing for minority representation manage to drastically alienate their allies. We've come pretty far in the last couple decades. It's not completely absurd to hope for LGB characters in television and games, and we're moving into giving them storylines beyond angsting about their sexuality. The world hasn't ended yet, so things are probably going to keep making progress.

 

Conspicuous lack of "T"?

[copperjack]

Conspicuous lack of "T"?

 

Mostly because trans representation isn't anywhere near as common as LGB is, and most trans storylines do the same coming out/transition thing, rather than let the character have other issues besides being trans. It's still a few steps behind the rest of the acronym.

[Tatile]

Mostly because trans representation isn't anywhere near as common as LGB is, and most trans storylines do the same coming out/transition thing, rather than let the character have other issues besides being trans. It's still a few steps behind the rest of the acronym.

 

Well, surely that means that trans* and non-binary gender identities need more representation and active pushing for it. And yes, if it's a contemporary setting, there will be mention, if not emphasis, on what it is to be a transwoman or a transman in this or that environment.

 

Have you seen Orange is the New Black? Sophia (Laverne Cox) deals with a lot of issues, which are in part due to her transition, but it's not as if she's reduced to "MtF".

[copperjack]

Well, surely that means that trans* and non-binary gender identities need more representation and active pushing for it. And yes, if it's a contemporary setting, there will be mention, if not emphasis, on what it is to be a transwoman or a transman in this or that environment.

 

Have you seen Orange is the New Black? Sophia (Laverne Cox) deals with a lot of issues, which are in part due to her transition, but it's not as if she's reduced to "MtF".

 

I wasn't trying to say anything about what should be happening, just what has already happened so far which is that LGB has come further than the T.

 

Mentions of what life is like is cool, but a lot of trans characters, if they do things beyond dying or being comic relief only have problems that relate to their being trans. They all go through the same story of come out, go shopping, get harassed and so on. It's very cliched.

 

I heard good things about her character, but I haven't actually seen the show.

[Tatile]

Mentions of what life is like is cool, but a lot of trans characters, if they do things beyond dying or being comic relief only have problems that relate to their being trans. They all go through the same story of come out, go shopping, get harassed and so on. It's very cliched.

 

Trans* characters are essentially in the same hole that women, people of colour, gay men ad lesbians have been in for years previous (and in some ways, still are.) This means that the tropes need to be dropped as crutches and pressure needs to be made (or made moreso) to improve the situation.