Same gender romance discussion

[Palar]

EA? Not that I've noticed, whether with their other properties or Bioware - it's probably unrelated, but BW's inclusion level went up after EA bought them.

 

As for LA, if they had passed down a veto then Reid simply wouldn't have said it was going to be a post-launch feature. For all the deleted Hall Hood tweets and hair-splitting about 'SGR/SGRA', that comment hasn't been retracted.

[faclonlord]

EA? Not that I've noticed, whether with their other properties or Bioware - it's probably unrelated, but BW's inclusion level went up after EA bought them.

 

As for LA, if they had passed down a veto then Reid simply wouldn't have said it was going to be a post-launch feature. For all the deleted Hall Hood tweets and hair-splitting about 'SGR/SGRA', that comment hasn't been retracted.

 

I didn't say veto, I said resistance. 'Cause I think you're quite right, BioWare would've told us outright if it had been vetoed. But that doesn't mean EA or LA or Disney aren't hesitant to actually allow same-sex content in the game.

 

And LucasArts is on record of having gutted Juhani's same-sex romance arc.

 

And I can't quite agree that BioWare's inclusion level went up after EA bought them. It was damn near non-existent at first, with ME2 and... SWTOR, which started around the same time. It was only after DA2 came out that BioWare started to regain their former glory.

[copperjack]

The first Dragon Age came out after they were bought by EA, and it had options for both genders. All they had before that were the fade to blacks in Jade Empire and Juhani's semi hidden romance. I don't think EA was the deciding factor either way, although I did hear their was some executive pressure against gay romance in Mass Effect.

[faclonlord]

The first Dragon Age came out after they were bought by EA, and it had options for both genders. All they had before that were the fade to blacks in Jade Empire and Juhani's semi hidden romance. I don't think EA was the deciding factor either way, although I did hear their was some executive pressure against gay romance in Mass Effect.

 

Dragon Age was also in development long before EA acquired them.

 

Also, in Jade Empire they had het, gay, and polygamous romances (alright, with two girls only, but still). We have only seen a return of gay romances post-DA2, and no return of non-monogamous relationships (other than a tease in ME1).

 

And, as I pointed out, Juhani's romance was gutted on LucasArts orders.

 

Also, all BioWare romances are black-outs. That really isn't the point.

[Palar]

I didn't say veto, I said resistance. 'Cause I think you're quite right, BioWare would've told us outright if it had been vetoed. But that doesn't mean EA or LA or Disney aren't hesitant to actually allow same-sex content in the game.

 

And LucasArts is on record of having gutted Juhani's same-sex romance arc.

 

And I can't quite agree that BioWare's inclusion level went up after EA bought them. It was damn near non-existent at first, with ME2 and... SWTOR, which started around the same time. It was only after DA2 came out that BioWare started to regain their former glory.

 

Looking at how gutted KOTOR 2 was to rush it out, I figured that was the deal with Juhani - she still gets all misty about her female master, it's just the dialogue options that weren't finished.

 

I'm of the mind that a parent company wouldn't be hemming this long - they'd have either said yea or nay to gay. Especially since it would have been a discussion back in the planning stages.

[Tatile]

EA anti-gay?

 

http://www.ea.com/news/ea-celebrates-lgbt-pride-month-in-june

http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/31/4383350/ea-lgbt-pride-month

http://www.queerty.com/electronic-arts-worst-company-anti-gay-critics-20130408/

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5285995

 

All I did was a simple google search.

 

The only one's who would be stopping this on "EA isn't like that grounds" are middle management that don't know EA's entire mission statement. No - this is in-house for Bioware: Austin. Bioware: Austin doesn't want to put money into this, or maybe their writers don't want to write it. God. That would explain a damn lot.

[Palar]

Apparently, George himself made the call for Ziro to sound like Truman Capote... I'm not sure what that means, but it doesn't seem like the action of someone who wants an all-hetero universe.

[copperjack]

Dragon Age was also in development long before EA acquired them.

 

Also, in Jade Empire they had het, gay, and polygamous romances (alright, with two girls only, but still). We have only seen a return of gay romances post-DA2, and no return of non-monogamous relationships (other than a tease in ME1).

 

And, as I pointed out, Juhani's romance was gutted on LucasArts orders.

 

Also, all BioWare romances are black-outs. That really isn't the point.

 

Mass Effect was also in development before EA acquired them, and it gave us one "not really a lesbian" romance. There were two years between EA taking over Bioware and Dragon Age being released, more than enough time for them to say "Hey, cut out all this gay stuff" if they wanted to. And the point about Jade Empire having fade to black romances was that on the het ones you get to see the two characters kiss, and on the gay ones it blacks out before they've even touched. Bioware is good with romantic diversity, especially compared to a lot of other developers, but it's not like they were absolutely amazing and then suddenly stopped once EA took over.

[Tatile]

Apparently, George himself made the call for Ziro to sound like Truman Capote... I'm not sure what that means, but it doesn't seem like the action of someone who wants an all-hetero universe.

 

Also, prior to the selling of the franchise, didn't he have the right to veto any additions of the canon? Because there are still the canon-gay Mandolorian couple from the EU.

[copperjack]

Also, prior to the selling of the franchise, didn't he have the right to veto any additions of the canon? Because there are still the canon-gay Mandolorian couple from the EU.

 

Star Wars canon is pretty complicated. I think the only thing that's actually set in stone canon is the movies. Then the next level down is the Clone Wars show, and then below that the books, comics, and games. So if he wanted Lucas could have put into the movie that the gay couple was never really gay, they were just friends. It would be incredibly stupid, but according to the way canon works that would be what was canon. I don't know how much he really cares about what goes on in the EU because he can just overwrite it whenever, which he has done before.

[Tatile]

That's true, but didn't...

 

"First of all, Lucas actively supports full marriage equality for same-sex couples."

~http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5287894&postcount=2368 - Natashina's FAQ for this thread, which I feel I know have to link in my signature.

 

So, more and more, it appears that any anti-SGRA stance is in-house for Austin. That means that one can deduce that someone, or someones, are purposefully delaying this content, without rhyme or reason.

[copperjack]

Yeah, i don't think Lucas is the problem in this case. I just wanted to point out that he's not necessarily very involved in any of the EU material.

 

I actually think that the gay mandalorians are kind of a sad example for people to point to and say "See, it's canon!" I know we're not exactly spoiled for choice but they are extremely minor characters and is very easy to miss the fact that they are gay. I think the fact that they are is the only reason people remember them at all.

[Tatile]

That's entirely possible - but you have to remember, that though science fiction is a genre devoted to pushing the boundaries of human understanding, and exploring in-depth the human condition, it's plagued by CisHet White Male Privilege, so in something even as 'niche' as Star Wars, finding LGBT examples is hard.

[copperjack]

I think we're up to 5 now? Other than various PCs of course. Yippee!

 

I just have bad feelings about the author who wrote them mostly. I recall her having a blog post about how she wanted to show that gay people were just normal people, not sparkly pink fairies, and all the bigots could just get out if they didn't like it. And yet her gay couple were the unmemorable blink and you'll miss them background characters while her dozens main characters all got heterosexually married. She's not as great an example as she thinks she is and i wish there were others we could point to. Sigh.

[Tatile]

That is a problem - lots of wishful thinking, big promises, and yet little in the way of actual results.

 

Hrm, sounds familiar...

[Seireeni]

I think we're up to 5 now? Other than various PCs of course. Yippee!

 

I just have bad feelings about the author who wrote them mostly. I recall her having a blog post about how she wanted to show that gay people were just normal people, not sparkly pink fairies, and all the bigots could just get out if they didn't like it. And yet her gay couple were the unmemorable blink and you'll miss them background characters while her dozens main characters all got heterosexually married. She's not as great an example as she thinks she is and i wish there were others we could point to. Sigh.

 

I, unfortunately, haven't read the book you're talking about, so I can't say what this gay couple is like in that book, but sounds like the author is trying to include some gay characters in her book while not angrying the people who don't like the idea of gay characters in science fiction. So not really "all the bigots could just get out if they didn't like it", more like "I put a few gay characters to this book, I hope you don't mind?".

[Tatile]

I wonder how hard it is to write for the EU. Do they approach you and say "Hey, we'd like you to write a book, but we don't really mind what's in it, so long as there are no Wookie Jedi and you don't try to use Yoda"? Do you approach them and go "I did a GIANT space battle with LASERS and a WORM and then the team go to a planet filled with SEXY people and get DRUNK :D:D:D"?

[Seireeni]

I wonder how hard it is to write for the EU. Do they approach you and say "Hey, we'd like you to write a book, but we don't really mind what's in it, so long as there are no Wookie Jedi and you don't try to use Yoda"? Do you approach them and go "I did a GIANT space battle with LASERS and a WORM and then the team go to a planet filled with SEXY people and get DRUNK :D:D:D"?

 

Don't know about how it is nowadays, but I've read the anniversary edition of Heir to the Empire (which was the first post-RotJ book that was written, I believe), and I can recall Timothy Zahn saying that he could "run until he hit a wall". So he could basically write what he wanted, but he had to approve everything with not-sure-who-but-someone and sometimes those people said no to some of his ideas. (I.e., he wanted to use a crazed clone of Obi-Wan, but he was denied, so he used a crazed clone of Jorus C'baoth.)

[copperjack]

I, unfortunately, haven't read the book you're talking about, so I can't say what this gay couple is like in that book, but sounds like the author is trying to include some gay characters in her book while not angrying the people who don't like the idea of gay characters in science fiction. So not really "all the bigots could just get out if they didn't like it", more like "I put a few gay characters to this book, I hope you don't mind?".

 

I just looked up the blog post and she said she wrote it subtly so kids wouldn't pick up on it. Except that most adults also don't pick up on it. I understand not wanting to write a character where all they are is gay, but her straight characters had plot important romances and characterization beyond straight so yeah. She talks big but the actual results aren't what you'd expect from the hype.

[Joushigun]

Star Wars canon is pretty complicated.

 

Star Wars canon is in need of a desperate mopping up. It's so badly in need of a clean up it isn't funny. I mean, honestly, the lore has gotten so screwed up and contradictory that it isn't funny in the least. It's worse than some of the hiccups in Doctor Who.

 

Part of the problem is that so much of it was done on the fly without a lot of input from Lucas.

[Tatile]

Star Wars canon is in need of a desperate mopping up. It's so badly in need of a clean up it isn't funny. I mean, honestly, the lore has gotten so screwed up and contradictory that it isn't funny in the least. It's worse than some of the hiccups in Doctor Who.

 

Part of the problem is that so much of it was done on the fly without a lot of input from Lucas.

 

That's something Disney could do: get everything structured and chop off all the fat. I mean, hell, there's confusion over whether or not humans and near-humans can inter-breed, because for every entry I've found that says "yes", I've got someone else going "no".

 

(Edit: I still don't believe in midichlorians, but having them be almost identical to mitochondria is the funniest thing to me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA) - Luke and Leia got their Force powers from Padme...)

Edited November 27, 2013 by Tatile

[Joushigun]

That's something Disney could do: get everything structured and chop off all the fat. I mean, hell, there's confusion over whether or not humans and near-humans can inter-breed, because for every entry I've found that says "yes", I've got someone else going "no".

 

(Edit: I still don't believe in midichlorians, but having them be almost identical to mitochondria is the funniest thing to me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA) - Luke and Leia got their Force powers from Padme...)

 

I've thought that midichlorians could be useful in that they are force-indicating parasitic bacteria inside the body of force users and can be used to indicate a person's sensitivity to the Force. Heck, if they wanted to, they could pay me a bunch of money to go through and do some restructuring.

[Seireeni]

That's something Disney could do: get everything structured and chop off all the fat. I mean, hell, there's confusion over whether or not humans and near-humans can inter-breed, because for every entry I've found that says "yes", I've got someone else going "no".

 

(Edit: I still don't believe in midichlorians, but having them be almost identical to mitochondria is the funniest thing to me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA) - Luke and Leia got their Force powers from Padme...)

 

Unfortunately, while doing this, Disney would probably destroy a pretty big portion of canon. But they'll probably do it anyway.

[Tatile]

That's kind of what mitochondria... where? (My memory's fuzzy, I think I read about mitochondria when I was fifteen and for some reason thought I could be a micro-biologist. Hahahaha)

 

You'd have different levels for sensitivity, but unless you include, like, some sort of bacterial pathogen that can imbue Force sensitivity into a person, I don't see how it could be passed from (cis)father to child...

 

Also, how then do we get areas where the Force is "imbued" into rock and stuff?

 

I was wondering, what if the Force is a field, which you can then manipulate objects through, and plucking or shaking it can create different effects in the tangible dimensions...

 

Unfortunately, while doing this, Disney would probably destroy a pretty big portion of canon. But they'll probably do it anyway.

 

Oh undoubtedly. They'd probably scrap most of it. (Including all your favourites, but none of the people you hate )

Edited November 27, 2013 by Tatile

[Joushigun]

Well, I think they could start to rewrite the lore starting with a new MMO set a little after this time, and rebuild it from the ground up. I think they could make it stronger too, perhaps even showing us that the Sith Empire continues to exist separate from the idea of the Fallen (or Sith) Jedi.

 

GAH, I hate this, I can plug into just about any world and work my way backwards and forwards writing and rewriting lore.