symke Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I think the reason for not having more info is simple. They themselves don't know more than they have already said. The day ROHC was announced was the day they started working on it, imo. EAWare has seen huge success of Cartel market and decided to capitalize on it. So they promised something new, but something in a future in order to retain many players that will pre-order the thing. And they have succeeded in that. Now all they have to do is to "leak" some small pieces of info once in a while and still satisfy many SWTOR players, especially those that have already preordered and those that are thinking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Exact information concerning skills and skill trees: - 1 new active ability per Advanced Class - 5 new skill points in the skill tree. The last could be read as just having 5 more points to spend on existing trees, or having a new tier of 5 more points in the skill tree (meaning a skill tree redesign). Personally.. I think it can go either way. Also, I agree with you that anyone expecting full expansion level content to be added for $10 are fooling themselves. Stick to what we know.. not to what we hope. The only real uncertainty is if Flashpoints are part of 5 more levels of levelling content and what the 'new systems that would be added entail entirely. As well as the new repeatable quests (just a new daily area, or a new system to give more reward for repeating certain lower level quests?). But yeah.. expecting too much leads to disappointment. I expect 1 new planet worth 5 new levels as well as 1 new ability per Advanced Class and some undefined system (be it low gear curve, boosting hardmodes, or any other solution) to ensure 'older content stays relevant' as they have stated in multiple interviews as their goal. That is all, really. Expecting anything more is setting yourself up for disappointment. Yeah, personally, I'd like to see this sort of info concrete on pre-order, it's not like they can reasonable change it this late in the day. Clearly never bought a cup of coffee in the UK I have and I've never seen one for more than £2.80 (which is expensive still IMO). £4.00? It should indeed have hand-milked polar bear milk to justifiy that price (especially if it's from one of the tax avoiding "coffee shop" chains). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenter Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) The day ROHC was announced was the day they started working on it, imo. Yeah, that sounds reasonable... How does the footage we saw of Makeb back in june fit in with your theory there? Edited January 28, 2013 by Trenter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redheadedtim Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Agree with OP. Makeb could make me stay subbed or it could be the reason I unsub. If there are not new flashpoints (if not ops) then I'm not paying $10 or $20 for a Saturday worth of quests. I would do so if they seemed poised to shift into DCUO mode where there are $10 content packs every 4-6 months, but they've given no indications of having that kind of long term plan. Something else to consider, preorder price is less than the lifeday speeder. It's even less than an outfit from the cc. Do they really consider the content in Makeb to be equivalent to less than 2 outfits on the cc (full price)? To any that say, "It's just $10 you cheap dude," I respond that price isn't the point. How they treat their customers is. I doubt that anyone who is holding on ordering is doing so with the money playing any part. We're adults, we're employed, it's not the money. It's the principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlbo_Nabbins Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) So if you go into a shop and buy a sandwich it is "entitlement" to want to know what is IN the sandwich? It is absolutely NOT "entitlement" to want to know as much as possible about something you are buying , the word you are actually looking for is "sensible". It is sensible to want know as much about anything you buy as you can. Invalid Comparison. Going into a shop and buying a sandwich is the same as buying RotHC after its been released, when you will have the info because its been released. Pre-ordering RotHC should be compared with ordering a delivery of the sandwich special on a day next week. You know its arriving in bread but you don't know exactly what the filling will be. Edited January 28, 2013 by Arlbo_Nabbins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oslek Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Exact information concerning skills and skill trees: - 1 new active ability per Advanced Class - 5 new skill points in the skill tree. The last could be read as just having 5 more points to spend on existing trees, or having a new tier of 5 more points in the skill tree (meaning a skill tree redesign). Personally.. I think it can go either way. Also, I agree with you that anyone expecting full expansion level content to be added for $10 are fooling themselves. Stick to what we know.. not to what we hope. The only real uncertainty is if Flashpoints are part of 5 more levels of levelling content and what the 'new systems that would be added entail entirely. As well as the new repeatable quests (just a new daily area, or a new system to give more reward for repeating certain lower level quests?). But yeah.. expecting too much leads to disappointment. I expect 1 new planet worth 5 new levels as well as 1 new ability per Advanced Class and some undefined system (be it low gear curve, boosting hardmodes, or any other solution) to ensure 'older content stays relevant' as they have stated in multiple interviews as their goal. That is all, really. Expecting anything more is setting yourself up for disappointment. Exactly. For ten dollars that is more than enough for me. Now if this was a 40-60 dollar expansion then I would be joining the chorus of posters demanding more info. But 10 measly dollars? I spend more than that at dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlbo_Nabbins Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 op has a point. They are selling something, yet they dont give a full list of features that are coming out with the expansion. A level cap and a new world are to be expected in an expansion, so you people need to stop acting like its a bonus. They need to explain everything we get. No, they are not selling anything, when they start selling it the full set of features will be known as it will have been released. What they are selling now is the opportunity to pre-order before the release. People really need to stop ************ about it, if you don't think there is enough info then wait until release. Then you can decide because they will have explained everything you will get. Its not as though BW are saying that you can only get RotHC by buying it before the release date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenter Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 To any that say, "It's just $10 you cheap dude," I respond that price isn't the point. How they treat their customers is. I doubt that anyone who is holding on ordering is doing so with the money playing any part. We're adults, we're employed, it's not the money. It's the principle. I just have a hard time understanding what principle it is you're reaching for here. A product is on the way and the company has given you the option and possibility to pre-order the product early. As a reward for doing this you get a few items and, if you were really early, a few days of extra access before the product ships. However, by pre-ordering you know that you don't have all the information on the product. Everything might not be finalized and you don't have any sources to go to for a review. Take a chance and pre-order, or wait until the product ships for the full info and potential reviews/coverage to help you decide if to purchase or not. This is not Bioware treating their customers badly in any way. The product won't disappear if you don't pre-order. You can have all the info avaliable and still be able to buy the product, but if you need that, why pre-order in the first place? Explain the principle for me, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlbo_Nabbins Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 You absolutely do, on both counts. Books are reviewed, so are movies. The information is out there either from the publisher, producer, or sources investigating and reviewing said products. I pre-order books when all that is available is the title. As it can be 4-6 months in advance it probably has only just made it to the publishers as a first draft. No one can review a book that far ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Invalid Comparison. Going into a shop and buying a sandwich is the same as buying RotHC after its been released, when you will have the info because its been released. Pre-ordering RotHC should be compared with ordering a delivery of the sandwich special on a day next week. You know its arriving in bread but you don't know exactly what the filling will be. If you "pre-order" your sandwich for tommorrows lunchtime it is still NOT "entitlement" to expect to know exacxtly what is in it. Maybe you like to order mystery sandwiches, which is fair enough (might be a bit dangerous with a nut or prawn allergy though ), the rest of the universe just expects to get what they ordered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I pre-order books when all that is available is the title. As it can be 4-6 months in advance it probably has only just made it to the publishers as a first draft. No one can review a book that far ahead. Books and films are nothing like adventure packs, no one reviews a book or a film by just basically laying out what it contains, to do so would spoil the very idea of a book or a film. Adventure Packs are different, although no one would expect them to lay out Makeb story either, but all the facts should still be there (as I suspect they indeed are). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlbo_Nabbins Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 If you "pre-order" your sandwich for tommorrows lunchtime it is still NOT "entitlement" to expect to know exacxtly what is in it. Maybe you like to order mystery sandwiches, which is fair enough (might be a bit dangerous with a nut or prawn allergy though ), the rest of the universe just expects to get what they ordered. That is why I said the "sandwich special". Specials change (another analogy would the the Soup of the Day) so you would not know what the filling would be. If you don't think there is enough info to order that sandwich in advance then don't buy it until the day you want it, just like you can wait until after release to buy RotHC. In response to a couple of posts here the reason they have not announced a definitive list of features is because they don't know how much will get past testing and be there when its released. Maybe they want to add 2 FP but they think it may only be 1 or it may be none if something else needs more work. If they said 2 FP now and we end up with less people would whine. Expect more details as we get closer to release and BW have more items on their "completed and ready to go" list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 That is why I said the "sandwich special". Specials change (another analogy would the the Soup of the Day) so you would not know what the filling would be. If you don't think there is enough info to order that sandwich in advance then don't buy it until the day you want it, just like you can wait until after release to buy RotHC. In response to a couple of posts here the reason they have not announced a definitive list of features is because they don't know how much will get past testing and be there when its released. Maybe they want to add 2 FP but they think it may only be 1 or it may be none if something else needs more work. If they said 2 FP now and we end up with less people would whine. Expect more details as we get closer to release and BW have more items on their "completed and ready to go" list. Adventure Packs don't change on a daily basis though, they are what they are. Once they reach a pre-order stage they should be pretty much 100% settled, the idea that a company gets close to release with no idea of what will be in their Adventure Pack is frankly scary, and I'd hope Bioware EA runs its ship much more efficently than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Bond Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 no new operations = no sub and no expansion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Maybe you like to order mystery sandwiches, which is fair enough (might be a bit dangerous with a nut or prawn allergy though ), the rest of the universe just expects to get what they ordered. You're missing the point: Bioware is explicitly offering you an incomplete description. They say, in effect, "We've got a box of goodies coming out soon. Here are a few things that are in it. We'll tell you other things that are in it later." There is no obligation to buy it now. There is no penalty to not buying it now. There is no penalty to buying it the day it's released. It's not like they're going to run out of copies. There is not deception about how much information you've been given. They gave you some details, and left some out. Either you're willing to buy based on that amount of information or not. If you want more information, then wait. Wait a month or so for more information. No penalty. Wait until the week before release. No penalty. Wait until release day, still no penalty. Buy it the day after release once reviews hit the forums, still no penalty. If nothing else, when it releases, you'll know everything. Better yet: By the time it releases, some players will have been playing for a few days and they can tell you exactly what's in it. What more are you complaining about? You think that Bioware should have 100% accurate information about a release they haven't completed yet? That's just silly. And impractical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foofie Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Wow lol. Great link. Interesting story. Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redheadedtim Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I just have a hard time understanding what principle it is you're reaching for here. A product is on the way and the company has given you the option and possibility to pre-order the product early. As a reward for doing this you get a few items and, if you were really early, a few days of extra access before the product ships. However, by pre-ordering you know that you don't have all the information on the product. Everything might not be finalized and you don't have any sources to go to for a review. Take a chance and pre-order, or wait until the product ships for the full info and potential reviews/coverage to help you decide if to purchase or not. This is not Bioware treating their customers badly in any way. The product won't disappear if you don't pre-order. You can have all the info avaliable and still be able to buy the product, but if you need that, why pre-order in the first place? Explain the principle for me, please? The principle of not just throwing down money because I can and because it's vaguely Star Warsy. The principle of wanting information about what I'm getting and not just being eager to give Bioware money. It's not hard to grasp. I'm happy to give them more money if I have to pay the full price, but I won't give them money for making vague statements. That shouldn't be the behavior we incentivize. If you don't get that, that's fine. I'm not alone in my sentiments (see OP). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 The principle of not just throwing down money because I can and because it's vaguely Star Warsy. The principle of wanting information about what I'm getting and not just being eager to give Bioware money. It's not hard to grasp. I'm happy to give them more money if I have to pay the full price, but I won't give them money for making vague statements. That shouldn't be the behavior we incentivize. If you don't get that, that's fine. I'm not alone in my sentiments (see OP). So don't pre-order. There is no penalty for waiting. Do you think that there will never be more information? At the very least, we know that there will be reviews of the content within 5 days of release. If you want more information, wait until then. What resolution do you want here? Do you want them to not offer pre-orders to anyone just because you want more information? Bioware isn't mistreating you. They're offering pre-orders based on preliminary information. If you don't want to pre-order, you don't have to, regardless of why. Insisting that they adhere to your arbitrary requirements when offering pre-orders is... silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redheadedtim Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I'm fine with not pre-ordering. Are people confused as to the intent of the OP? To say he's not preordering until there's more info. I'm agreeing. Most mmos tend to give more than a vague "more levels" "one geographic area" list when they announce an "expansion." Bioware has chosen not to. That's fine if they don't want to over promise, but they won't see my money until I get some actually useful information. But thanks for telling me not to preorder. That was insightful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 So what was the point, then? To tell Bioware that you're not pre-ordering? They already know that. They know more about who is and isn't pre-ordering than any of us do. What's the point in saying: "I won't pre-order until you do that thing that you're already planning on doing later!" Do you think that they won't provide any more information, ever? Do you think that this "I won't order until ${X} weeks from now!" declaration will convince them to release some uncertain information now, just to convince you to buy now, rather than a few weeks from now? Haven't we seen enough instances to prove that the community is totally incapable of understanding speculative information? I'm not trying to antagonize you or anyone, here. And I'm not trying to make you change your mind. I'm just trying to understand what the whole purpose is here. As far as I can see, its just another thread of people posting complaints in hopes that they'll get special treatment or some sort of pat on the head from Bioware. Frankly, if I were them, I'd be less inclined to release information just because I dislike encouraging this sort of behavior. But that's probably why I'm a developer and not a software company owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) You're missing the point: Bioware is explicitly offering you an incomplete description. They say, in effect, "We've got a box of goodies coming out soon. Here are a few things that are in it. We'll tell you other things that are in it later." There is no obligation to buy it now. There is no penalty to not buying it now. There is no penalty to buying it the day it's released. It's not like they're going to run out of copies. There is not deception about how much information you've been given. They gave you some details, and left some out. Either you're willing to buy based on that amount of information or not. If you want more information, then wait. Wait a month or so for more information. No penalty. Wait until the week before release. No penalty. Wait until release day, still no penalty. Buy it the day after release once reviews hit the forums, still no penalty. If nothing else, when it releases, you'll know everything. Better yet: By the time it releases, some players will have been playing for a few days and they can tell you exactly what's in it. What more are you complaining about? You think that Bioware should have 100% accurate information about a release they haven't completed yet? That's just silly. And impractical. I don't think they are, I think Makeb is what it is (i.e. not a lot). But then if they are doing what you're saying their are doing, then I don't think they should be doing that either, trust is something easily lost. Edited January 28, 2013 by Goretzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 No one is forcing anyone to pre order. If you want to wait that's fine. Just stop pretending you are some internet hero by standing up against the big bad EA and refusing to give them $10 early. You aren't a hero and quite frankly, no one cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I don't think they are, I think Makeb is what it is (i.e. not a lot). Well, they're charging not a lot, so it seems appropriate. Loads of people are happy to pay $10 to get just the new planet, new levels, new abilities, and new skill points. Their view of the situation is just as valid as yours. They are no more blind than you are. But then if they are doing what you're saying their are doing, then I don't think they should be doing that either, trust is something easily lost. So they shouldn't give out any information, make any announcements or let anyone pre-order until they know everything about the expansion? Or maybe they just shouldn't do any of that until you are satisfied? That seems like a pretty strict set of rules. Does this apply to all companies? Are other companies allowed to sell pre-orders for games before every single feature is guaranteed? Do you complain when car companies announce their upcoming models but don't give you a full spec sheet six months ahead of release? Again: What is your goal? What do you want them to do? Clearly, you don't want Bioware to tell you about things they can't guarantee will be in the release. Do you think that your $15 subscription (if that) entitles you to more information than the development team itself has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenter Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Haven't we seen enough instances to prove that the community is totally incapable of understanding speculative information? Sorry for the /snip, but this right here. It's a pre-order, which almost certainly means that the product simply is not done yet. What would happen if they released a full feature list, as it is when the pre-order is first made avaliable, and then 4 months down the road they find out during quality assurance that one of the announced features has severe problems and won't make it to ship? Do you think that would've gone down well with the community? Oh no. If you want the full list, you wait for launch or just before. You don't have to pre-order. They likely can't hand you the finalized list of features at this point, because they don't have it. If they did, we'd have a release date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiramu Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I pre-ordered because they released the stuff with the expansion, I like stuff . Bonus items are very good at enticing customers to buying. Useful info will be good too, but you've been playing Swtor for this long, so you'll end up buying the expansion eventually . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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