So, we wanted a fix for space combat heroics, and we got a nerf?

[Dawginole]

Honestly... 7k credits for 4-8 minutes IF you beat the mission first try (which some of these missions are hard enough most players won't) was NOT too much. I can do all the dailies in Black Hole except the group one in 15 minutes or so- and without any effort.

 

This is an excellent point. I can run through BH in its entirety in 30min tops including the heroic and walk away with 100k credits.

 

So if these missions are 4-8min, then some combination of missions should be equivalent to 100k from a dailies area. This is not my pov, this is more of the pov of the dev team who have stated they want to allow players to earn credits and/or level up in the way they see fit. So if someone ran seven 4min missions in space at 12k a pop they would make 84k in 28min. Why is that considered out of proportion to doing a dailies area?

 

I don't even do space missions. It's really stuff like this that provides me no interest. You seriously want your players to run an 8min quest for 1k credits? >.>

 

So now the question is why would anyone do these? You created a scenario that would drive players to space missions, and then you nerfed it creating a disincentive to your new space missions. There's just not a chance in hell that I would waste any time doing these space missions when I could spend the equivalent amount of time running a dailies area and making 100k credits.

 

It's stuff like this that makes me cringe as a player because it's so obvious to so many people how idiotic these decisions are. I mean almost every time it's, "Hey, we saw something that wasn't really broken, but we wanted to tweak it anyway, so we drastically changed it and realize that it's now now longer attractive for a player to engage in this, but don't worry because we'll keep an eye on it and maybe tweak it again in 6 months or if the player base forgets about it then we'll just leave it alone."

Edited January 9, 2013 by Dawginole

[AboB]

Thats so stupid to let people who able to do these over and over get mass credits and new players dont get crap now.

inflation.

[DataBeaver]

I'm not sure what to say to this. It seems like very typical MMORPG player behavior to exclusively grind whatever is perceived to provide the best reward for effort spent. Considering that space combat is a single-player mini-game, perhaps the devs don't want you to spend all day grinding them?

 

If you were only doing space missions for the credit rewards and feel that they're no longer worth the time, then maybe you should just stop doing them? There are ways to make more credits with less effort anyway, so it begs the question why were you grinding space missions in the first place?

 

Myself, I like the space missions, but I don't do them for the credit rewards. I already have more credits than I know what to do with. The main reason is to get the comms, but they also provide a refreshing break from the normal gameplay. Between dailies, HM FPs, ops and leveling alts, I don't even have time to grind anything. Plus, I'd go nuts if I repeated the same five-minute mission over and over for the whole day.

 

As for needing to purchase the grade 7 ship parts for them, you don't really need all of them. So far Thanium Disruption is the only one where I've needed any grade 7 parts, and I was able to do that with just the shield regen, improved EMP and improved power conversion module.

[Evgen]

The difference is a fix would probably involve a whole lot of testing, debugging, development, more testing and QA to resolve the issue. Changing how many credits are earned from a quest, could and probably is as easy as an update to a single field in a database. Maybe a Quest_Reward table. I support software myself and we try and keep little things like this ticking over.

True, but it is still adding insult to injury.

[Maylen]

Not sure if it's just me bugged, but I only get 518 credits from completing them. And before the nerf I certainly didn't get 12k, I got 7k.

[Zoiks]

The difference is a fix would probably involve a whole lot of testing, debugging, development, more testing and QA to resolve the issue. Changing how many credits are earned from a quest, could and probably is as easy as an update to a single field in a database. Maybe a Quest_Reward table. I support software myself and we try and keep little things like this ticking over.

 

Their "solution" may be easy, but it was also dumb. Dumb because it doesn't actually fix the problem, and dumb because it was ridiculous to even think it would have any real impact on the problem.

 

What is the actual problem here? That the reward for JUST the new missions, which were universally only about 10-25% more profitable than some of the old missions, was too hgih? Or that the repeatable space missions, ALL of them, offer an easy way to credit farm via bot, with little to no chance of being reported for botting? Clearly the latter is the real problem, which this patch did practically nothing to address. So now maybe instead of botting regnant station they'll go back to botting aeten defense, way to go Bioware....

 

There are ways to make more credits with less effort anyway, so it begs the question why were you grinding space missions in the first place?

 

There really aren't, at least not without the risk of being reporting for botting. You use a macro recorder to record yourself starting up a space mission, successfully completing it, and exitting it, then put the macro on repeat and go do something else. Come back a few hours later and tada, you have a bunch more credits. All without the risk of some other character walking by, seeing you doing this, and reporting you.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Zoiks

[Rothie]

Thats so stupid to let people who able to do these over and over get mass credits and new players dont get crap now.

 

That is standard operating procedures for most if not all MMO's. If a reward for a quest is too high they reduce it. If it was broken and giving too much, they remove the gains. Normal, annoying if you don't get the benefits, but still normal.

[Washingtoon]

Less desirable content requires higher rewards. It's the same reason to why people are only playing two bosses on tfb/ec, they don't need the mission specific rewards so it's all about the creds and the same creds can be obtained in an easier or more fun way elswhere. You, BW, killed full raids by getting rid of the BH comm drops and you'll kill space missions by "balancing" their rewards. Edited January 10, 2013 by Washingtoon

[Zoiks]

Not sure if it's just me bugged, but I only get 518 credits from completing them. And before the nerf I certainly didn't get 12k, I got 7k.

 

Hah, I see what you mean now. Regnant Station, right? It's giving 538 instead of the 1.6k all, or at least most, of the others are giving now. This is actually pretty funny, because before the nerf the Regnant Station repeatable was bugged/typoed to have a smaller reward than the others also, lower even than the imp equivalent, Far Cradle.

 

I'm guessing someone wrote up a script to lower the rewards for the new space missions and no one could be bothered to check that it actually applied them all equally. That or some data-entry person just figured since it was lower it should stay lower, hah! Hilarious.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Zoiks

[Propheldor]

Their "solution" may be easy, but it was also dumb. Dumb because it doesn't actually fix the problem, and dumb because it was ridiculous to even think it would have any real impact on the problem.

 

What is the actual problem here? That the reward for JUST the new missions, which were universally only about 10-25% more profitable than some of the old missions, was too hgih? Or that the repeatable space missions, ALL of them, offer an easy way to credit farm via bot, with little to no chance of being reported for botting? Clearly the latter is the real problem, which this patch did practically nothing to address. So now maybe instead of botting regnant station they'll go back to botting aeten defense, way to go Bioware....

 

 

 

There really aren't, at least not without the risk of being reporting for botting. You use a macro recorder to record yourself starting up a space mission, successfully completing it, and exitting it, then put the macro on repeat and go do something else. Come back a few hours later and tada, you have a bunch more credits. All without the risk of some other character walking by, seeing you doing this, and reporting you.

 

you will get banned for that. i knew a guy who used a program to do space missions and he got a week suspension and he did it more and they banned him. so they obviously took care of that problem already.

 

they probably lowered the credits from the top space missions because it already gave lots of other benefits from commendations and stuff and it was meant for that and was not meant for credits. the normal missions are for fun and leveling up and credits.

[Zoiks]

you will get banned for that. i knew a guy who used a program to do space missions and he got a week suspension and he did it more and they banned him. so they obviously took care of that problem already.

 

they probably lowered the credits from the top space missions because it already gave lots of other benefits from commendations and stuff and it was meant for that and was not meant for credits. the normal missions are for fun and leveling up and credits.

 

I have no idea if they're suspending people for it or not. I would hope so, but that begs the question of how do they know if someone is? As opposed to just sitting there and grinding away? With the tiny number of CS they have in the game, if any, anymore I can't imagine they're very effective at stopping this.

 

But regardless, the repeatables have always ONLY given credits/xp as a reward, including the new ones. So there was no point to doing the new repeatables aside from credits or to learn the map, as I'm pretty sure you have to be level 50 to do them. I suppose you could do them for fun or legacy xp, but it's not very realistic to believe many people do, heh.

[Propheldor]

I have no idea if they're suspending people for it or not. I would hope so, but that begs the question of how do they know if someone is? As opposed to just sitting there and grinding away? With the tiny number of CS they have in the game, if any, anymore I can't imagine they're very effective at stopping this.

 

But regardless, the repeatables have always ONLY given credits/xp as a reward, including the new ones. So there was no point to doing the new repeatables aside from credits or to learn the map, as I'm pretty sure you have to be level 50 to do them. I suppose you could do them for fun or legacy xp, but it's not very realistic to believe many people do, heh.

 

they can tell if someone is exploiting it because nobody does space missions for 19 hours a day every day. they don't even need to pay gm's to catch them. i'm sure it is some automatic system that catches them.

[Propheldor]

I have no idea if they're suspending people for it or not. I would hope so, but that begs the question of how do they know if someone is? As opposed to just sitting there and grinding away? With the tiny number of CS they have in the game, if any, anymore I can't imagine they're very effective at stopping this.

 

But regardless, the repeatables have always ONLY given credits/xp as a reward, including the new ones. So there was no point to doing the new repeatables aside from credits or to learn the map, as I'm pretty sure you have to be level 50 to do them. I suppose you could do them for fun or legacy xp, but it's not very realistic to believe many people do, heh.

 

also, while that is true the new missions give special rewards/commendations so they are still worth doing for those dailies and stuff.

 

as for the credit nerf they probably felt they were giving too much, maybe they should have made it so they give the same as the other missions as long as they didn't give more if you include the bonuses.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Propheldor

[Maylen]

Hah, I see what you mean now. Regnant Station, right? It's giving 538 instead of the 1.6k all, or at least most, of the others are giving now.

 

 

Yeah, Regnant Station. It's one of the few weeklies that will actually pop up on my characters. I've done it twice now today with only 518 credits as a reward.

[ZeroOneNine]

Out of sync with the expected reward? I have to run these things about 5-8 times each just to win ... and they're about 5 minutes per run... so... instead of 12k every 25-40 minutes, I get a bit over 1k....

 

Not running these anymore... they are not fun, and are not even close to being worth it.

Edited January 10, 2013 by ZeroOneNine

[Evgen]

Out of sync with the expected reward? I have to run these things about 5-8 times each just to win ... and they're about 5 minutes per run... so... instead of 12k every 25-40 minutes, I get a bit over 1k....

 

Not running these anymore... they are not fun, and are not even close to being worth it.

Wow, that's what I was thinking when I heard that.

Compared to how much money you can get ground side, where you will get credits even if you die sometimes. As opposed to getting none if you fail and having to start all over again. Even if you die a lot and factor in armour repair I still think you'd come out on top.

[MikeZkraken]

I can actually step in here to explain what happened. Per our development team:

 

We noticed that the Credit rewards for the new repeatable Heroic Space Missions (the ones you can do as many times as you want per day, not the Dailies) were too great and out of sync with how many credits we expected players to earn on average during normal gameplay. To account for this, rewards for these quests missions have been reduced to bring them more in line with the risk and cost of running Space Missions versus playing through the ground game’s content. We apologize to fans of the new Heroic Space Missions for this oversight and hope that the Credits and Commendations rewarded for the Daily quests are still found desirable enough to overcome the difficulty of these new challenges. Going forward, we will be keeping an active eye on this issue and others like it to make sure players are being rewarded correctly for the amount of effort they put into the game.

 

And I can tell you that your statement really doesn't make any sense. I don't believe there was really a need for anything to be "brought more in line". In the Black Hole, for instance, I can get 7k in about 10 seconds by scanning "spies". If you want people to actually play the space game at all, you have to give them more of an incentive. After all, these are the same people you probably took quite a bit of cash from on the Cartel Market last patch because the upgrades were impractical to attain otherwise. Nice work, really.

 

I love the game, don't get me wrong...but simple recolors of armor in-game marketed as "new armor" and these lackluster implementations instead of fixes. From one designer to another... I gotta say, it's getting old.

[DataBeaver]

There really aren't, at least not without the risk of being reporting for botting. You use a macro recorder to record yourself starting up a space mission, successfully completing it, and exitting it, then put the macro on repeat and go do something else. Come back a few hours later and tada, you have a bunch more credits. All without the risk of some other character walking by, seeing you doing this, and reporting you.

Sorry, I was under the impression you wanted to actually play the game yourself. If you just want to get the best possible equipment with zero effort and go smash some warzones, you're in the wrong game. Try HoN, LoL or DotA2. Maybe even CS or another FPS. None of those has any persistent progression and thus no need to grind credits.

[Blackardin]

also, while that is true the new missions give special rewards/commendations so they are still worth doing for those dailies and stuff.

 

as for the credit nerf they probably felt they were giving too much, maybe they should have made it so they give the same as the other missions as long as they didn't give more if you include the bonuses.

 

What part of this discussion do you need clarified? You seem to be still missing the point.

 

The heroic space missions, unless one was botting, are not a good way to earn credits even before the nerf. One could earn more doing the old dailies then they could doing the new ones space missions. One can earn three times as much farming mats, twice as much doing ground dailies, way more playing the cartel market or the GTN.

 

They were already low yield, but people did the non-dailies because at least one could get something for their efforts and, perhaps, preferred space missions over other means. However, now they are not worth it at all and unless someone loves to punish themselves, will not ever run a non-daily heroic space mission again.....even you.

[Vlacke]

Ramp up the credit reward, it seems rather insufficient at the moment.

[grombrinda]

And that's why i don't do space missions.

[Evgen]

It's kind of sad that if you think of it along the lines that they want the game to fail, everything makes sense.

All the bad decisions, poor communication, ridiculously long development times for simple systems like character transfers, persisting, reoccurring bugs.

The Cartel market makes them money, while at the same time not really adding any longevity to the game.

They must have some commitment to appear to be supporting and developing the game until enough people quit.

The space missions were probably more popular than they expected so they had to fix them.

[Goretzu]

What part of this discussion do you need clarified? You seem to be still missing the point.

The heroic space missions, unless one was botting, are not a good way to earn credits even before the nerf. One could earn more doing the old dailies then they could doing the new ones space missions. One can earn three times as much farming mats, twice as much doing ground dailies, way more playing the cartel market or the GTN.

 

They were already low yield, but people did the non-dailies because at least one could get something for their efforts and, perhaps, preferred space missions over other means. However, now they are not worth it at all and unless someone loves to punish themselves, will not ever run a non-daily heroic space mission again.....even you.

 

 

I'm certain this is the reason for this nerf and the orginal space nerf, people BOTing 24/7 and racking up huge amounts of credits over time that way.

 

I'm sure for gold farmers it's basically free credits.

[SickTag]

I can actually step in here to explain what happened. Per our development team:

 

We noticed that the Credit rewards for the new repeatable Heroic Space Missions (the ones you can do as many times as you want per day, not the Dailies) were too great and out of sync with how many credits we expected players to earn on average during normal gameplay. To account for this, rewards for these quests missions have been reduced to bring them more in line with the risk and cost of running Space Missions versus playing through the ground game’s content. We apologize to fans of the new Heroic Space Missions for this oversight and hope that the Credits and Commendations rewarded for the Daily quests are still found desirable enough to overcome the difficulty of these new challenges. Going forward, we will be keeping an active eye on this issue and others like it to make sure players are being rewarded correctly for the amount of effort they put into the game.

 

That's all great and what not but I am stil bugged and don't get daily space missions, I get ONE every couple of days and 2 of them on Sunday. So I get maybe a total of 4 missions a week. I am completely against the new "credit adjustment" for space missions. I HATE doing dailies on Section X for repair money, and was enjoying the change, but 50k credits an hour for grinding space missions makes them useless, especially when I can easily make more then that doing what I despise in most MMOs, the daily grind. This is why I left WoW, after buying every CE, owning 6 acocunts, and playing with my wife on there. Blizzard deciding what I SHOULD be spending my time on, not what I enjoy spending my time on.

[heavy_Gear]

Obviously, Bioware doesn't care what paying customers think. All we have is a messenger that patronizes everyone and thinks we're stupid. Pack it up Bioware. EA is going to pull the plug any day now.