Kaggath Heats: Traya vs Plagueis

[Wolfninjajedi]

 

Fact is, there's no way Traya would beat him on a 1v1 fight considering that its hinted that had Sidious actually confronted Plagueis in a direct confrontation with sabers and displays of force powers, he would have been slaughtered and undermined.

 

I wouldn't say he would have been slaughtered, it says MAY have been able to undermine him so there is a little wiggle room in there if it would actually work.

[Aurbere]

Plagueis' base of operations is Sojourn not Coruscant. Which makes him vulnerable to orbital bombardment. However Plagueis does have the Scimitar but can he escape in time with no precog? (He managed to escape bombardment once, but only because he was warned beforehand) And assassins could easily hold him there, or Sion. Or they could sabotage his ship to explode or simply disable it.

 

 

OK, so now that bombardment is back open, Traya's chances are much better.So let's think about the style of the Triumvirate: they strike quickly with no warning. Plagueis will have no idea that Traya's fleet is coming for him. The Ravager and a bunch of Interdictor-class vessels will turn Plagueis' base into a pile of rubble.

 

But of course, Plagueis could always purchase his own fleet to counter this. That takes time, though. And how long will it take for Traya's fleet to get to Sojourn?

[Wolfninjajedi]

OK, so now that bombardment is back open, Traya's chances are much better.So let's think about the style of the Triumvirate: they strike quickly with no warning. Plagueis will have no idea that Traya's fleet is coming for him. The Ravager and a bunch of Interdictor-class vessels will turn Plagueis' base into a pile of rubble.

 

But of course, Plagueis could always purchase his own fleet to counter this. That takes time, though. And how long will it take for Traya's fleet to get to Sojourn?

 

There is the problem...from the map of the Outer Rim, I can't seem to find Malachor or Sojourn on it. They are in the same region, but how far apart they are dunno....I tried looking the cords but didn't find em. It doesn't help that the planet that Sojourn orbits is unknown.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Whats to stop Plagueis from doing the same?

He neither possesses the ability to perceive shatterpoints nor the ability to wield lightsabers telekinetically. And his lack of precognitive abilities (cannot predict opponents moves) makes him especially vulnerable to such an attack.

You mean by 50 assassins stated to have been skilled and dangerous enough to kill jedi? He atomized a dozen of them with a single force wave,a feat no other force user has demonstrated in the mythos.

Apologies, I forgot to mention 'assassin'. Was it 50? I can't remember, I don't specifically recall any numbers being mentioned and it gives no numbers of Wookieepedia. Seems a bit excessive to kill a bunch of defenseless Muuns... but I'll take your word for it. However the fact is he was grievously wounded, and would have died if Sidious and the Sun Guard hadn't intervened. So how would Plagueis fare is he was attacked by 50+ Sith assassins, which arguably are more deadly?

You mean when she was greatly empowered on a dark side nexus?

Does it matter, Traya is going to stay on Malachor anyway...

Plagueis has still demonstrated far more dangerous combat abilities than traya has. Its not hard to think that his speed and command of the force can overwhelm her.

 

Fact is, there's no way Traya would beat him on a 1v1 fight considering that its hinted that had Sidious actually confronted Plagueis in a direct confrontation with sabers and displays of force powers, he would have been slaughtered and undermined.

I would agree that in a straight up fight Plagueis would most likely defeat Traya. But this isn't going to be a straight up fight, Traya doesn't have to play fair. If she can stack the odds against him she will. And that can be done in several ways e.g. Kill Maul so she can kill him with Sion's help, overwhelm both Plagueis and Maul with the help of Sion and other Sith Lords, surprise attack, poison etc etc.

 

Basically Plagueis needs to get the drop on Traya to win, it is possible, but its not guaranteed.

OK, so now that bombardment is back open, Traya's chances are much better.So let's think about the style of the Triumvirate: they strike quickly with no warning. Plagueis will have no idea that Traya's fleet is coming for him. The Ravager and a bunch of Interdictor-class vessels will turn Plagueis' base into a pile of rubble.

 

But of course, Plagueis could always purchase his own fleet to counter this. That takes time, though. And how long will it take for Traya's fleet to get to Sojourn?

Well I don't think it will go down like that. If Traya drops a fleet out of hyperspace chances are an on-guard Plagueis will make a hasty escape on the Scimitar. Traya isn't going to risk that. Traya will instead say, feign an invasion. Dropping ground forces only from small transports, no fleets and a small enough force for the Sun Guard to handle, so Plagueis won't flee. However in a 'Harbinger-scenario' while the battle rages outside his fortress, Sith assassins infiltrate Sojourn and sabotage the Scimitar and all other vessels so Plagueis has no means of escape. Then the assassins confront Plagueis and while he is distracted Traya drops a fleet out of hyperspace and blows the place to pieces. Even if Plagueis overwhelms the assassins, he has no ships to escape in.

 

But yes, it is possible that Plagueis could purchase his own fleet, but even if he amassed one before the attack, could it rival Traya's?

 

Basically if we take away scenario and speculation, we are left simply with three advantages Traya has over Plagueis. Sith assassins, a sizable fleet, and a small army.

[Wolfninjajedi]

What does Traya's fleet consist of? How big is her army? I don't see it being very big, as they couldn't do full scale invasions whereas Plagueis has the Sun Guard which is big enough to have legions of men. Edited January 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

There is the problem...from the map of the Outer Rim, I can't seem to find Malachor or Sojourn on it. They are in the same region, but how far apart they are dunno....I tried looking the cords but didn't find em. It doesn't help that the planet that Sojourn orbits is unknown.

 

Yeah, I cracked open my Star Wars Atlas and found nothing on Malachor or Sojourn. Sojourn's planet is understandable, but surely Malachor V would be in there.

 

Heck, the two could be sitting right next to each other

[Beniboybling]

There is the problem...from the map of the Outer Rim, I can't seem to find Malachor or Sojourn on it. They are in the same region, but how far apart they are dunno....I tried looking the cords but didn't find em. It doesn't help that the planet that Sojourn orbits is unknown.

Come on guys, you can do better! Wookieepedia gives you their coordinates and using them and this map, we can get an idea of where they are.

 

Sojourn: J-4

Malachor: S-4

 

Sojourn seems to be quite close to Muunilinst, while Malachor is on the corners of Sith Space. There fairly close, not very, but fairly. Well at least IMO, I'm no expert on hyperspace travel.

 

Oh and Wolf, remember the Battle of Telos IV and the Second Battle of Onderon? Traya has at least enough forces to assault a small fortress.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

Come on guys, you can do better! Wookieepedia gives you their coordinates and using them and this map, we can get an idea of where they are.

 

Sojourn: J-4

Malachor: S-4

 

Sojourn seems to be quite close to Muunilinst, while Malachor is on the corners of Sith Space. There fairly close, not very, but fairly. Well at least IMO, I'm no expert on hyperspace travel.

 

Oh and Wolf, remember the Battle of Telos IV and the Second Battle of Onderon? Traya has at least enough forces to assault a small fortress.

 

Oh right...ya I wasn't looking at that map, was looking at another. While right...the Battle of Onderon the Sith had help from General Vaklu and the Battle of Telos they used whatever guys they had left. But compared to the Sun Guard, how big is Traya's army really?

 

How about her fleet though? The Ravager...while its famous, is actually a POS when you take a look at its specs...at least compared to what Plagueis could get.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Come on guys, you can do better! Wookieepedia gives you their coordinates and using them and this map, we can get an idea of where they are.

 

Sojourn: J-4

Malachor: S-4

 

Sojourn seems to be quite close to Muunilinst, while Malachor is on the corners of Sith Space. There fairly close, not very, but fairly. Well at least IMO, I'm no expert on hyperspace travel.

 

Oh and Wolf, remember the Battle of Telos IV and the Second Battle of Onderon? Traya has at least enough forces to assault a small fortress.

 

No wonder i couldn't find it...

 

I WAS USING THE WRONG COORDINATES!!!!!

 

/sigh

[Beniboybling]

Oh right...ya I wasn't looking at that map, was looking at another. While right...the Battle of Onderon the Sith had help from General Vaklu and the Battle of Telos they used whatever guys they had left. But compared to the Sun Guard, how big is Traya's army really?

 

How about her fleet though? The Ravager...while its famous, is actually a POS when you take a look at its specs...at least compared to what Plagueis could get.

Well you make a good point. But at least in my scenario Traya would only have to distract, not destroy, Plagueis' army - her real strength lies in her assassins and their infiltration skills. And while the Sun Guard are probably worth 5 or more Sith Troopers, with Sith Marauders and Warriors leading the charge, it balances out at least a little.

 

Wookieepedia tells me your right about the fleets though:

 

'The few times that the Triumvirate fought openly was during the Onderon Civil War and the Battle of Telos IV, the former supporting General Vaklu's soldiers with Dark Jedi and Sith beast handlers, while the latter apparently used all of their remaining space and ground forces.'

 

But remember this is at the height of their power. So were probably talking about a dozen Sith Interdictors and the Ravager. But I doubt Plagueis could amass a sizeable fleet in time. I checked the coordinates of Tatooine and Alderaan and the distance is about the same. And how long did it take for Luke & co. to get the Alderaan? A day, two? I don't think that gives Plagueis enough time.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well you make a good point. But at least in my scenario Traya would only have to distract, not destroy, Plagueis' army - her real strength lies in her assassins and their infiltration skills. And while the Sun Guard are probably worth 5 or more Sith Troopers, with Sith Marauders and Warriors leading the charge, it balances out at least a little.

 

Wookieepedia tells me your right about the fleets though:

 

'The few times that the Triumvirate fought openly was during the Onderon Civil War and the Battle of Telos IV, the former supporting General Vaklu's soldiers with Dark Jedi and Sith beast handlers, while the latter apparently used all of their remaining space and ground forces.'

 

But remember this is at the height of their power. So were probably talking about a dozen Sith Interdictors and the Ravager. But I doubt Plagueis could amass a sizeable fleet in time. I checked the coordinates of Tatooine and Alderaan and the distance is about the same. And how long did it take for Luke & co. to get the Alderaan? A day, two? I don't think that gives Plagueis enough time.

 

It all depends on how fast the hyperdrives on Traya's ships are. I take it, Traya's fleet uses the Sith Interdictors? If so here at the specs.

===

 

Interdictor-class cruiser

 

Engine units: 3 Main thrusters, 4 Auxiliary.

 

Hyperdrive Rating: 2.0

 

Armament: 5 medium turbolasers, 6 light point defense lasers

 

Compliment: 48 Sith Interceptors

==

 

Ok so a Class 2.0 hyperdrive, seems to be the average so that is fair travel speed however we don't know the sublight speed of the Interdictor cruisers which if we did we could make a guess as to how fast they would travel in hyperspace.

 

Edit: Wait what is Plagueis allowed to have in terms of fleet?

Edited January 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[MasterMe]

It all depends on how fast the hyperdrives on Traya's ships are. I take it, Traya's fleet uses the Sith Interdictors? If so here at the specs.

===

 

Interdictor-class cruiser

 

Engine units: 3 Main thrusters, 4 Auxiliary.

 

Hyperdrive Rating: 2.0

 

Armament: 5 medium turbolasers, 6 light point defense lasers

 

Compliment: 48 Sith Interceptors

==

 

Ok so a Class 2.0 hyperdrive, seems to be the average so that is fair travel speed however we don't know the sublight speed of the Interdictor cruisers which if we did we could make a guess as to how fast they would travel in hyperspace.

 

Edit: Wait what is Plagueis allowed to have in terms of fleet?

 

Plagueis doesn't even have a fleet does he?

[MasterMe]

I haven't had the time to read ALL the comments here, but it seems that people are saying Plagueis's healing powers are gonna make Maul and the Sun Guard invincable. I'd like to address this:

 

I don't know a whole lot about the specifics on Plagueis's ability to keep people from dying, but I imagine that it's not an ability he can use in the middle of a battle. It's not like he's got some defensive force shield around his men. I had always thought that he had to take a little time to heal men. Besides: even if he can use such an ability during a battle, him focusing on such an ability would take his attention off of the enemy and he could then be killed.

 

So somebody answer this question for me: is Plagueis's ability canonically something you can use in the heat of battle, and can you use this ability quickly? If not, then I feel that we should assume that it takes time for Plagueis to use this power. It's not something that will be effective in the middle of a battle.

 

Regardless, I still feel that Traya wins this.

[Beniboybling]

It all depends on how fast the hyperdrives on Traya's ships are. I take it, Traya's fleet uses the Sith Interdictors? If so here at the specs.

===

 

Interdictor-class cruiser

 

Engine units: 3 Main thrusters, 4 Auxiliary.

 

Hyperdrive Rating: 2.0

 

Armament: 5 medium turbolasers, 6 light point defense lasers

 

Compliment: 48 Sith Interceptors

==

 

Ok so a Class 2.0 hyperdrive, seems to be the average so that is fair travel speed however we don't know the sublight speed of the Interdictor cruisers which if we did we could make a guess as to how fast they would travel in hyperspace.

 

Edit: Wait what is Plagueis allowed to have in terms of fleet?

Good point, the Falcon had a 0.5 hyperdrive so it would probably take about 4 days, same for the initial transports too, can't find any with a hyperdrive of less than 2.

 

And good question TBH I'm as much in the dark as you are. Seeing as the Trade Federation are excluded I'd say anything on the Black market. But can Plagueis amass a feet in 4 days?

 

EDIT: You are exactly right MasterMe - I feel it gives him an edge against Sion's immortality though and useful for healing Maul if he was 'killed' in battle.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Good point, the Falcon had a 0.5 hyperdrive so it would probably take about 4 days, same for the initial transports too, can't find any with a hyperdrive of less than 2.

 

And good question TBH I'm as much in the dark as you are. Seeing as the Trade Federation are excluded I'd say anything on the Black market. But can Plagueis amass a feet in 4 days?

 

Amassing a fleet really isn't that easy. There's alot of stuff you have to do. You can't just buy ships and be done with it. You need to pay people to fly those ships (I'm sure the Sun Guard can do that, but that's fewer Sun Guard on the ground). You need to get a crew to operate your cruisers. And you need to purchase supplies for those ships.

 

Now Plagueis can do all of that, but it's going to take time. Something Plagueis may not have. He needs time, and I don't think Traya is going to give him that time.

 

Edit: I think the 'buy a fleet' strategy would work well for Plagueis in a tri-battle scenario. Not so much in this battle.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Aurbere

[Wolfninjajedi]

Good point, the Falcon had a 0.5 hyperdrive so it would probably take about 4 days, same for the initial transports too, can't find any with a hyperdrive of less than 2.

 

And good question TBH I'm as much in the dark as you are. Seeing as the Trade Federation are excluded I'd say anything on the Black market. But can Plagueis amass a feet in 4 days?

 

EDIT: You are exactly right MasterMe - I feel it gives him an edge against Sion's immortality though and useful for healing Maul if he was 'killed' in battle.

 

Can he gain access to what the Hutt Cartel has? I'm not so sure about the 4 days though on a Class 2 hyperdrive...this is rather difficult seeing as there is no chart, or anything giving the specifics of how fast a ship would actually travel given the hyperdrive rating. All we know is the lower the rating, the faster the ship would go.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Can he gain access to what the Hutt Cartel has? I'm not so sure about the 4 days though on a Class 2 hyperdrive...this is rather difficult since we don't know the sublight speeds of the Interdictors..for instance the X-wing goes at 100 Megalights per hour and had a hyperdrive rating of 1.0, which you then multiply the Megalights by 1000x....or at least thats what I get from this chart anyway.

 

I was about to post some calculations I made, but I would like to know how long it took the Falcon to get to Alderaan from Tatooine (before I get mathematical ).

 

Edit: Obviously I can't configure the specifics, but I can give a rough estimation I think.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Aurbere

[Wolfninjajedi]

I was about to post some calculations I made, but I would like to know how long it took the Falcon to get to Alderaan from Tatooine (before I get mathematical ).

 

Edit: Obviously I can't configure the specifics, but I can give a rough estimation I think.

 

I dunno if looking to the Falcon is the best idea, its a modified ship whereas the stuff Traya and Plagueis are using are not. But regardless, I ain't seeing anything of how long it took.

 

Edit: Ok found something, with a Class 1.0 it takes a matter of days to travel across the galaxy.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

I dunno if looking to the Falcon is the best idea, its a modified ship whereas the stuff Traya and Plagueis are using are not. But regardless, I ain't seeing anything of how long it took.

 

Oh well

 

Edit: Whoops! Missed that last part! So if a 1.0 takes a few days to travel the galaxy, how long would it take for a 2.0 to do the same?

Edited January 9, 2013 by Aurbere

[Wolfninjajedi]

Oh well

 

Edit: Whoops! Missed that last part! So if a 1.0 takes a few days to travel the galaxy, how long would it take for a 2.0 to do the same?

 

My guess? A week maybe add a few days on that?

[Beniboybling]

My guess? A week maybe add a few days on that?

So probably 2 days or less to get to Sojourn. I doubt anyone can amass a fleet in that time.

[Wolfninjajedi]

So probably 2 days or less to get to Sojourn. I doubt anyone can amass a fleet in that time.

 

Wait how did you go from 4 days to 2?

[Beniboybling]

Wait how did you go from 4 days to 2?

Because you said it takes a few days to travel the whole galaxy in a class 1.0, Malachor to Sojourn is a quarter of that distance, or even less. It must have taken the Falcon a matter of hours to get to Alderaan by that information, so it only makes sense. 2 days, then KABOOM!

 

[Wolfninjajedi]

Edit: Wait nvrm. Edited January 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[MasterMe]

As I said earlier, I think that Plagueis will eventually come to Malachor V and attempt to attack Traya and the academy. With that in mind, I have a question: are the Sun Guard gonna be able to go to Malachor without going crazy and lossing their minds? I know that in the Revan vs Traya Kaggath Revan's soldiers where unable to go to Malachor V because they didn't have the force...