slafko Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 *double facepalm* It's used as a taunt. Nitpick all you want, you're still wasting it needlessly and exposing your team to aoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Sirus- Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I'd like a take a moment to amuse myself with how off topic this thread has gotten. mitigation vs endurance > defense vs absorption > some endurance loss for wp gain > threat opening > force pull is(not) taunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slafko Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 It is rather amusing, is it not? *takes a sip of tea* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omophorus Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I'm not a fan of opening with Force Pull or any other taunt for that matter. My preferred method of aggroing everything, including operations bosses, is Force Speeding in and dropping Slow Time and Project while rotating them away from the group. Since some of the bosses open up with massive aoe or cone attacks, I like to keep my group od the safe side and minimize the chances of anyone but me getting hit. On a boss fight, why not open with Pull? There are very few, if any that have situations where you'd need to pull something in the first 45s. It's easy enough to Force Speed in from a direction that isn't facing the group, pull before hitting 10m, hit your 10m openers, initial taunt, and have *more* threat than if you hadn't. With no downside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckoneful Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 *double facepalm* It's used as a taunt. Nitpick all you want, you're still wasting it needlessly and exposing your team to aoe. No, it's not used as a taunt. It functions absolutely nothing like a taunt. This is why I ignored you and hate your blatant spread of misinformation. Are you trolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schnopsnosn Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 *double facepalm* It's used as a taunt. Nitpick all you want, you're still wasting it needlessly and exposing your team to aoe. That's just wrong. If the boss is getting away far enough for you to actually use Force Pull(minimum range of 10m), you are doing so many things so wrong that it hurts me. The only time you can effectively use the Pull is when you open a fight. Also it is NOT a taunt, you can claim it as much as you want, it is not. Taunts put you on top of the aggro-table of a mob, Pull only adds threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrwafer Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 1. what they mean by force pull being a taunt is simply it being the opening move. in a way you could call any attack being used first a taunt because it is what holds the mobs attention temporarily. 2. I disagree with force pull giving massive threat, that stupid skill never holds anything for very long, I only use it for positioning a mob in the middle of the aoe were doing, or various other positionings. 3. also disagree with opening with force pull. I too prefer to sprint in and project/slow time. if you sprint in you wont have time for a smooth transition from force pull-project-slow time cus you closed the gap so quickly, and if your running in on Zorn and the ranged dps start attacking and all you did was a force pull, you'll be chasing the boss as he's aggroed a ranged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schnopsnosn Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 3. also disagree with opening with force pull. I too prefer to sprint in and project/slow time. if you sprint in you wont have time for a smooth transition from force pull-project-slow time cus you closed the gap so quickly, and if your running in on Zorn and the ranged dps start attacking and all you did was a force pull, you'll be chasing the boss as he's aggroed a ranged Run in on the boss, at 11m use Force Pull, immediately afterwards Wither, Shock and Discharge. Don't see a problem, if you're losing aggro despite that opening tell your brainless DPS to wait 3s before hitting anything. But from experience you NEVER lose aggro if you open like that. There's no skill that generates more threat than Force Pull(apart from taunts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slafko Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 That's just wrong. If the boss is getting away far enough for you to actually use Force Pull(minimum range of 10m), you are doing so many things so wrong that it hurts me. Are you sure this was supposed to be addressed to me? Last time I checked, it wasn't me that was using Force Pull on the bosses. You might want to re-visit the last page and read again before you start bashing. The only time you can effectively use the Pull is when you open a fight. Also it is NOT a taunt, you can claim it as much as you want, it is not. Taunts put you on top of the aggro-table of a mob, Pull only adds threat. 1) For the third time, using FP to open a fight is pretty dumb. 2) If it's used as a taunt, it's a taunt. 3) If you need FP to open a fight and add threat, you're doing so many things so wrong that it hurts me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternalnight Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Obvious troll is an obvious troll 2) If it's used as a taunt, it's a taunt. Except that: 1. Force pull is not a taunt. It functions absolutely nothing like a taunt. 2. Force pull is also not used as a taunt. Nobody in the whole world has ever used Force Pull as a taunt. 3. It is not even possible to use Force pull as a taunt, because force pull functions absolutely nothing like a taunt. If one were to call force pull a taunt then by the same logic they should call all of their damage dealing abilities taunts and so on, which negates your whole argument anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slafko Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'm sorry, did Force Pull start doing damage? Didn't get the memo... As for taun/no taunt, , all I can do is repeat myself for the third time. I'm not going to do that because I feel no need to make myself feel stupid on the count of anyone else's intelligence deficits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternalnight Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'm sorry, did Force Pull start doing damage? Didn't get the memo... Not sure if you are really that clueless or just pretending to be. The threat mechanics of a force pull function in many regards the same way as the threat mechanics of damage dealing abilities. The threat mechanics of a taunt have absolutely nothing what so ever in common with those of a force pull. As for taun/no taunt, , all I can do is repeat myself Ok let's repeat : 1. Force pull is not a taunt. It functions absolutely nothing like a taunt. 2. Force pull is also not used as a taunt. Nobody in the whole world has ever used Force Pull as a taunt. 3. It is not even possible to use Force pull as a taunt, because force pull functions absolutely nothing like a taunt. I'm not going to do that Nobody cares what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckoneful Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) People, I'm going to caps this to get my point across. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN YOUR OPENER BETWEEN FORCE PULLING OR NOT, EXCEPT IT'S 5152 EXTRA THREAT. Force pull is NOT a taunt. Taunts put you at the top of the aggro table. Force pull generates 5152 threat. That's it. It literally ONLY generates 5152 on an Ops boss. Nothing more, it does not cause a Fixate. IT IS NOT A FIXATE(Taunt), it is a high threat generating ability. There is no argument for calling it a taunt, there is no downside to opening with Force pull. These arguments are pointless and I'm pretty sure slafko is trolling at this point. Edited January 31, 2013 by ckoneful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Sirus- Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 He had one valid argument about the timing of initiating aggro. If you don't use force pull or any other longer range, you have slightly more time to turn an AOE happy boss away from the group before he lets loose and causes unnecessary raid damage. Since a large number of boss fight areas give you lots of room to work with, I'm still pretty sure you could just approach from a different angle to both use force pull and keep team out of AOE opening attacks in most cases. Other than than, nobody is going to convince him that force pull doesn't meet his internal definition of a taunt. So, no point arguing it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckoneful Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) He had one valid argument about the timing of initiating aggro. If you don't use force pull or any other longer range, you have slightly more time to turn an AOE happy boss away from the group before he lets loose and causes unnecessary raid damage. Since a large number of boss fight areas give you lots of room to work with, I'm still pretty sure you could just approach from a different angle to both use force pull and keep team out of AOE opening attacks in most cases. Other than than, nobody is going to convince him that force pull doesn't meet his internal definition of a taunt. So, no point arguing it anymore. Well, you obviously need to use common sense while using it as well. But, you're generally going to be using project 1-2 meters later(less than a second) than you would use Force Pull so it really doesn't make a difference on those bosses either. It's not a "YOU MUST USE THIS ON ALL BOSSES REGARDLESS OF MECHANICS, NO ONE CARES ABOUT THOSE!" type thing. It's using it for extra threat in the opener when available. Essentially, common sense. Edited January 31, 2013 by ckoneful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furiel Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 He had one valid argument about the timing of initiating aggro. If you don't use force pull or any other longer range, you have slightly more time to turn an AOE happy boss away from the group before he lets loose and causes unnecessary raid damage. Since a large number of boss fight areas give you lots of room to work with, I'm still pretty sure you could just approach from a different angle to both use force pull and keep team out of AOE opening attacks in most cases. Other than than, nobody is going to convince him that force pull doesn't meet his internal definition of a taunt. So, no point arguing it anymore. I can't think of ANY bosses that AOE on pull, they all wait at least 5 seconds, most more, before they do their first AoE. And if you can't get in position and turned starting at 30m using Force Speed then you are probably doing it wrong. And that extra 5k+ threat you can get during your run to position can be a great help, especially on bosses like tanks where DPS can't hold back a little to let aggro be established, and all it does it push back Project by maybe a half second at most since the boss will aggro around 25m and you can't attack til 10m, so might as well do something in that bit of time closing to build threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schnopsnosn Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Don't forget about T+Z, it shortens the time DPS have to wait for the first AoE to hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Sirus- Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) Stormcaller comes to mind. Probably more, but would have to hunt through boss mechanics and parses to confirm. Again, though, it's usually a moot point because problem is solved by changing approach angles. We just have the nontanks approach from the side. Edited January 31, 2013 by -Sirus- misquote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckoneful Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Stormcaller comes to mind. Probably more, but would have to hunt through boss mechanics and parses to confirm. Again, though, it's usually a moot point because problem is solved by changing approach angles. We just have the nontanks approach from the side. See, I that never crossed my mind because my groups already do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grallmate Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Stormcaller comes to mind. Probably more, but would have to hunt through boss mechanics and parses to confirm. Again, though, it's usually a moot point because problem is solved by changing approach angles. We just have the nontanks approach from the side. I've yet to come across a situation where I've cause raid AoE damage from opening with Pull, same as I've yet to find one where opening with Throw -> Leap on my Guardian has caused issues. Pull can only be used from >10m range, once a boss fight starts the boss should never (mechanics aside) be out of that range so you might as well use it when you can. Trash is another argument all together, on trash it is excellent for grouping up mobs. On bosses, its just a bit of free threat while you run in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slafko Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Essentially, common sense. Yes, that seems to be lacking around here in massive quantities. Why on earth would anyone waste such a useful skill only for building up threat when your threat generation is already through the roof? I've never used FP as a threat generator on bosses and haven't experienced any problems whatsoever. What I did use FP for was pulling stragglers the other tank managed to miss and keeping them on me instead of having them bash my healers. Common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schnopsnosn Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Yes, that seems to be lacking around here in massive quantities. Why on earth would anyone waste such a useful skill only for building up threat when your threat generation is already through the roof? I've never used FP as a threat generator on bosses and haven't experienced any problems whatsoever. What I did use FP for was pulling stragglers the other tank managed to miss and keeping them on me instead of having them bash my healers. Common sense. Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slafko Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Really. Or do I need to show you logs before you accuse me of being a liar again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schnopsnosn Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I called you a liar and I stand by what I said until I get solid evidence. Also we are talking about boss-fights, in most boss-fights you don't need FP for adds, therefore you can use it to generate aggro. Don't see a problem there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slafko Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) You not seeing the problem actually is the problem. Firstly, there are enough boss fights that feature adds to warrant not wasting your FP. Secondly, you don't need FP at all to keep you on top of the threat list. I know I'm just risking being called a liar again, but I don't need FP to keep aggro. Must be doing something terribly wrong I guess. Don't give out bad advice just because you're bad. Try to learn. Edited February 1, 2013 by slafko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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