Draloch Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I've been having a generally negative feeling all week about the announcement to charge for the next content update. I'm someone who has kind of grown up with the subscription model. The business model that I'm used to has me paying 15 dollars a month for a game to play, including regular content updates including solo content, open world group content, minor gameply updates -I'm not talking about bugs-, and raiding updates. I want to be careful to say that I'm not being critical of the Makeb content update. I think you guys have done a fine job of releasing new content on a timely scale. If not for the Nickel and Dime aspect, I would be energized and excited about a nice planet to play next spring. Every couple years, I expect an expansion that significantly updates the game. In SWTOR I would expecte a full rework of all classes so they play different and the game legitimately feels updated. I would expect a full Act 4 including a minimum of 3 Voss/Belsavis/Corelia sized planets, a class story that progresses through each planet for all 8 base classes, and some evolution of my relationship with my companions. I would also expect to see at least a couple new flashpoints, and at least 1 new tier of operations. I would pay 40 dollars for this. I also wouldn't expect this to happen this year. It would be a 2014 thing. This is the business model that I'm comfortable with. Instead, in a few months, I'm going to be asked to pay additional money to download a content patch hidden behind a paywall. If I don't pay, then I don't get to continue playing endgame content. It feels wrong and it makes me wonder if this is going to be the new normal for SWTOR. If it is, then does that mean I shouldn't ever expect to see a big expansion that reworks all the classes and makes the game feel fresh again? Should I never expect to have months of new class stories to discover? Will there even be an Act 4? How many times will I have to plunk down 10 dollar bills for content updates in addition to my 15 dollars a month I already pay before I see a real expansion? I've kind of been feeling crappy all week about this announcement and I haven't been sure how to word it. I'm not going to pre-order the patch and hopefully, my opinion will evolve as more information comes out. Regardless, I realize that when this content is released, I will be making a final decision to accept the new "pay us 10 bucks when we tell you to" business model or leave the game I enjoy playing forever. That is, unless the business team behind the game changes their mind and offers the patch for free to subscribers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) I sense a disturbance in the force, i sense rich kids and defenders to the death incoming like 10's of voices suddenly shouted out and then there was silence. For they shall shout its only 10 bux and something else costs that much and they dont notice. Edited December 22, 2012 by Shingara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevalon Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) Good post and sums up pretty much exactly how I feel. I also worry that this is the start of a new precedent for SWTOR. Are all future content updates going to be 10 bucks? Every 1.5-2 months we have to drop another 10 bucks on top of our 15 dollar fee? Thats an extra 60-80 bucks a year on top of the sub fee. While that;s not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things, I just don't think SWTOR is worth that at all. Edited December 22, 2012 by Trevalon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzina Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I agree. It was said to be free before. -my negative post for the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibobpipop Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 The fun thing is: NOBODY outside of Bioware knows how big Rise of the Hutt-Cartel will be in content except that it brings the lvl-cap-increase and Makeb as planet, yet pretty much EVERYBODY seems to know it won't be worth 15 $..... So....uh...do you guys have a magic glass-ball or a pimped Maya-calendar that tells you the future or something? What happened to the good old "we wait till we have ALL the infos, then think about it, then praise / complain" ? Oh, right, it's alot easier to directly say "i have no idea how many hours of playtime i'll get for those 15$, but in no way it'll be worth 15$, gotta grab my torch and pitchfork" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevalon Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 The fun thing is: NOBODY outside of Bioware knows how big Rise of the Hutt-Cartel will be in content except that it brings the lvl-cap-increase and Makeb as planet, yet pretty much EVERYBODY seems to know it won't be worth 15 $..... So....uh...do you guys have a magic glass-ball or a pimped Maya-calendar that tells you the future or something? What happened to the good old "we wait till we have ALL the infos, then think about it, then praise / complain" ? Oh, right, it's alot easier to directly say "i have no idea how many hours of playtime i'll get for those 15$, but in no way it'll be worth 15$, gotta grab my torch and pitchfork" I think alot of people are looking at Bioware track record of small, buggy, and generally terrible patches in the past. All we have to go on about this xpac is their past stuff and their past stuff is kinda lackluster. That being said they are already charging people for it on nothing but promises...so until we see more promises fulfilled we will maintain that the only thing in the xpac is what they have said so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atduncan Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Funny too cuz we paid 60 bucks for the game. its free now. new players pay nothing. Yet you want 10 more bucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I think alot of people are looking at Bioware track record of small, buggy, and generally terrible patches in the past. All we have to go on about this xpac is their past stuff and their past stuff is kinda lackluster. That being said they are already charging people for it on nothing but promises...so until we see more promises fulfilled we will maintain that the only thing in the xpac is what they have said so far. I think its more worrying that it went from JO saying it was a large content patch, to gabe saying its fully fledge and pretty far along, and he thinks same sex whatever is in makeb and now hickman says its an expansion but we now know hardly anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaximusRex Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 So, you would pay $40 for something about 3x bigger then Makeb, but paying $10 for Makeb feels a bit unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) So, you would pay $40 for something about 3x bigger then Makeb, but paying $10 for Makeb feels a bit unreasonable. I would defo pay £40 for a fully fledged, worked out and totally encompassing expansion outside of subscription, who wouldnt, but this aint one and i want the mmo company im paying subs to todo the full job instead of bits here there and everywhere. When the 1st devs talking about the content in development state its a huge content patch thats what sticks in your mind constantly, and to be honest this feels more like a balancing attempt by bioware for what they want there metrics to be at. Now space, i can see that as an expansion, worked on swoop racing, pazzak and other things like new levels on exisiting planets to go back and explore, added new class and companion story and charged full price expansion costs for that as a full package. And then used makeb to extend the playabilaty of swtor until that comes via new operations and reworkins of old operations and flashpoint nightmare modes as in both op and flashpoint nightmare modes set at lvl 55. Edited December 22, 2012 by Shingara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomitako Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Here's kinda the way I see it. If people are willing to pay $40 for a full-fledged expansion, containing 2-3 planets, a new ops, new WZ, and a few other goodies (which believe me, sounds pretty heavenly at this stage), but aren't willing to pay $10 for 1 planet plus whatever additional things they're adding.....if you paid for this expansion 4 times, to equal out to your $40, that would mean 4 planets, and whatnot. I don't know about you, but $40 for 2-3 planets, or $10 for 1 planet, seems like a pretty good deal to me. I'm just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) Here's kinda the way I see it. If people are willing to pay $40 for a full-fledged expansion, containing 2-3 planets, a new ops, new WZ, and a few other goodies (which believe me, sounds pretty heavenly at this stage), but aren't willing to pay $10 for 1 planet plus whatever additional things they're adding.....if you paid for this expansion 4 times, to equal out to your $40, that would mean 4 planets, and whatnot. I don't know about you, but $40 for 2-3 planets, or $10 for 1 planet, seems like a pretty good deal to me. I'm just sayin'. so for all features we would normaly find in a fully fledged expansion that normaly drop on average every 2 years at which point do the trickle effect tiny expansion take the place of normal content drops exactly and how long till we start to get peeved that we dont have the big jumps in content that a fully fledge expansion brings with the rate of content that a subscription mmo delivers. And yes this has a f2p option but its still predominantly slanted at subscribers. Edited December 22, 2012 by Shingara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draloch Posted December 22, 2012 Author Share Posted December 22, 2012 First of all, I feel liks I should point out that I'm not trying to speak for everyone or inflate my worth as a customer. I'm one person with an opinion that is shared by some but not all subscribers. Even though we don't know the details of this content update, we can reasonably speculate some of the things that it won't have that I'm used to seeing from a $40 expansion. A full act with 3 planets is more than just 66% more than Makeb. Class stories are huge. I have 8 characters (1 of each base class). A real expansion would see me gladly playing all 8 of those characters and enjoying not only class content, but updated companion story lines. That's a big part of what would make a $40 expansion purchase feel like a good value. We can be reasonably confident that Makeb will have none of that. If I want 8 level 55 characters it will mean playing the same content 4 times and then playing a 2nd set of content 4 more times. That's not at all comparative to a 1/3 sized mini-expansion. It's just a content update with new solo quests for both factions. Another feature that I'm used to seeing with $40 expansions is a full rework of class combat mechanics. This is a very important thing to do as an MMORPG matures. It gives you the chance to say goodbye to the combat rotation/priority you've been playing for a couple years and makes your old character feel new. Although it's true that we don't know the details, we can be reasonably sure that we're not going to see anything like that. My shield spec vanguard will likely see some tweaks to his skill tree that may move an ability priority a little bit (or may not - we don't know yet), and I'll have 1 new skill to work into my already bloated 25 button combat keybind. I actively use 25 different keybinds in every single operation boss encounter on my vanguard. It's kind of alot and I'm pleased with it. Because it's such a robust combat rotation, I'm not really tired of it after a year and there isn't a need for a full rework at this time. The point is that adding 1 new ability is really not at all comparitive with what I will expect/need in another 12-18 months. It's not 1/3 or 1/4 of what I'll expect when I want a $40 expansion. At that time, I'll expect a full rework of my combat mechanics. I'll want moves to disappear. I'll want new moves to show up. I'll want an overall philosophy change in how I generate threat. I'll want my vanguard to feel like a fresh new character. This is standard in the industry. We don't know all the details of Makeb, but we know enough that we can be reasonably sure it won't be a 1/3 or 1/4 update to combat mechanics. Again, I'm not trying to speak for anyone but myself (check my post history - I'm not a negative nancy around here). People are free to disagree with me and I won't be disrespectful to you our try to diminish your opinions. I just want my voice to be heard because there's a realistic chance I will turn my attentions to another game when this content patch goes live and I want to speak up while there's still a chance that Bioware can do something to turn me from "generally feeling nickel and dimed" to "excited about the direction of the game." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthstinji Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I love how soooo many people know everything that is contained in the expansion. Apparently (even though they havent announced everything) you seem to know that all makeb will be is a single planet and nothing else. For all you know they may announce a new ops, a few flashpoints, etc... The fact is you dont know everything thats in it. Please Please Please people, quit complaining and whining. It was just announced. If you are not sure you want to pay the $10, wait. dont buy. wait till they announce more of what it contains. If your willing to pay $40 then dont buy it. wait till they announce everything then decide. seriously people.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth-Rammstein Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 So, you would pay $40 for something about 3x bigger then Makeb, but paying $10 for Makeb feels a bit unreasonable. I'd be much more interested in a full expansion than a fraction of one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suriakk Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I agree with some sentiments of the community but I am going to reserve judgement until I know more about what it contains. But most seem to be convinces that it's 10$ per planet. However this is a 20$ "expansion". So it may just have 2 planets. Honestly I would be happy if they added more to the planets we have more high level areas. We are playing with planets here not continents, they are huge. Though I have to admit I would love to see some new places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grombrinda Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) I love how soooo many people know everything that is contained in the expansion. Apparently (even though they havent announced everything) you seem to know that all makeb will be is a single planet and nothing else. For all you know they may announce a new ops, a few flashpoints, etc... The fact is you dont know everything thats in it. Please Please Please people, quit complaining and whining. It was just announced. If you are not sure you want to pay the $10, wait. dont buy. wait till they announce more of what it contains. If your willing to pay $40 then dont buy it. wait till they announce everything then decide. seriously people.... And I love how people know that this CONTENT UPDATE is worth it? So please,please,please if you are tired of people raising their concerns over this stop coming to the forums just to defend EA, they got high paid people to do that. Edited December 22, 2012 by grombrinda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 People have been complaining about lack of content in this game for a long time. Many threads have been practically demanding more content, more story, as soon as possible. They could do what WoW did before MOP and have 10 months of absolutely nothing while they work on more content, but right now I think pushing out less content more often for less money more beneficial to the health of this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 People have been complaining about lack of content in this game for a long time. Many threads have been practically demanding more content, more story, as soon as possible. They could do what WoW did before MOP and have 10 months of absolutely nothing while they work on more content, but right now I think pushing out less content more often for less money more beneficial to the health of this game. Lack of content and content being pushed back are different things. everything got pushed back for f2p development, we also had to wait on them to put stuff in the game that should have been in at the start like ui and legacy x2. ranked also got pushed back and still hasnt been turned on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daranar Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 And I'm comfortable with paying a monthly fee and having expansions that don't change/ruin the game such as SWG. I am comfortable with sub games that realease expansions every year at most introducing new content, not a rework of a game. But unfortunately, BW can't please us all, so let em do their art, their game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theguffin Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 one point to make. this is a Free to Play game. So being that it is free 2 play, the expansion should be free 2 play. Just fits the marketing scheme. Now this is some hybrid payment thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theguffin Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I do pay, i sub and have spent over 100$ in cartel store. so ya I pay, and i am not complaining about paying for expansion. I am just pointing out by biowares own admission this is a free 2 play game. Now it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitas Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) As long as the expansion doesn't change the entire game's mechnics like in SWG, I'll be relieved.If more major expansions will be avilable in the future after this this one with at least 1 - 3 new explorable worlds and none of them are original, I'll be happy.If more features will be revealed apart from the current 3 for ROTHC, I'll be excited. Edited December 22, 2012 by Vitas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthstinji Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 And I love how people know that this CONTENT UPDATE is worth it? So please,please,please if you are tired of people raising their concerns over this stop coming to the forums just to defend EA, they got high paid people to do that. Who said I was defending EA. Please read the whole post. I never said it was worth the $10. I said quit complaining about something that you dont know all the details about. Yes, its stupid of EA/Bioware to not release all the details but, its just as stupid to complain about something when you dont know all the details. Im simply saying, wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMike Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) Of course its nickle and diming. And expect much more of it in the future. All "deals" are off, top execs now run SWTOR. And that only means one thing: MOAR Edited December 22, 2012 by GrandMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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