Tanking Stat Weights

[dipstik]

Is there a discrepancy between Guardians and Juggernauts? Maybe just a tooltip error, or are you actually getting 11% IR?

 

ive got 21% with the willpower buff. so, they are different. I made a post about it in general and PM'd eric musco, so he shoudl be telling the devs about it sometime.

 

THANK YOU SO MUCH. without you checking this work, that would have gone unnoticed for a while im sure.

 

this goesnt affect the stat weights, but it does affect the overall mitigation, by a little. this will change the tradeoff between strength/power and mitigation, for the self absorb.

Edited April 30, 2013 by dipstik

[DogEyedBoy]

Does this take into account Powertech's new passive, Close and Personal?

[Yngow]

Dipstik -

 

Some questions for you from a PT tank perspective.

 

First off, in regards to relics, you've stated that Arkanian/Underworld Relics of Fortunate Redoubt (defense) is BiS for both Juggs and Powertechs. As for the second relic, I have the old Elite War Hero shield static relic that gives me +120 shield rating. Should I look to change that out? I feel like the +120 stat is just too good to drop.

 

Keep in mind that all the math is done for an average of all possible situations and does not represent the best for each individual fight or moment during a fight, that reflects a lot on relic choices meaning that if you get those relics you will have a very good performance overall, but playstyle choices can make other relics better for you.

 

What I mean is, if you know the mechanics of the fights, a clicky relic + proc relic + adrenal poped at the correct time can pretty much negate a mechanic that would otherwise kill you, and while it lowers your overall survivability during the rest of the fight by a little (considering the pvp relic is up all the time and the clicky is not) your healers should be perfectly able to keep you alive during the downtime of the clicky relic. Thats why for me, unless it is a very non-spiky dmg fight I use a clicky+proc, thats the same idea as pre-casting for healers where they start casting big heals/buffs before the big dmg situations.

 

Also keep in mind that powertechs have only 3 (or 2, some people keep oil slick up everytime they can instead of an oh crap) cooldowns and those cooldowns are not as good as the ones shadows and juggs have. So in the end the math is just a guide that you should adjust to your playstyle. Personally I always have 2 sets of relics so I can choose which one is better for each boss fight

[dipstik]

Does this take into account Powertech's new passive, Close and Personal?

 

here is what i have:

 

Vanguard http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...d-03637ae825f7

 

rebraced armor: 16% armor rating

shield vents: 2% shield

ablative upgrades: 4% absorb

ion screen: 2% kinetic reduciton, 2% internal

deflective plating: 4% defense

 

heat screen: 3% for 6 seconds after heat blast

heat blast: during heat blast: (25+0)*1.5+(25+1)*1.5+(25+2)*1.5*1+(25+3)1.5

taking time averaged for both gives (3*6+25*1.5+26*1.5+27*1.5+28*1.5)*(1/12) = 14.75% absorb. KBN got 15.33. so im just going to call this number 15%.

 

power armor: 2% kinetic reduction, 2% internal reduction

integrated cardio package: 3% endurance

 

stance: 5% kinetic damage reduction, 5% internal damage reduction, 60% increase armor rating, 15% shield chance,

 

set bonus: 2% resistance, 2% defense

resist buff: 10% internal resistance

[DogEyedBoy]

That looks like a no then. No mention of the self-heals from shoulder cannon either. I doubt it does enough to change anything, but maybe worth a look.

[Yngow]

Yeah, close and personal is a passive skill and is not on the skill tree:

"Increases the duration of energy shield by 3 seconds. In addition, suffering direct damage from area attacks vents 2 heat and heals you for 2.5% of your total health. This effect cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds."

This + shoulder cannon gives a good amount of heals, I even remember some cases where I had more healing done than a fellow shadow tank but this must be due to the new kolto overload mechanic mainly, I never paid much attention at this but I have a raid coming up today and I will go through my healing numbers this time

Edited April 30, 2013 by Yngow

[DogEyedBoy]

I don't know what Shadow/Assassin get, but my Powertech easily breaks 100 HPS.

[dipstik]

i wasnt including the area of affect self heal because it didnt seem reliable for a large portion of fights.

 

and the self heal for 10% of health is on a long cooldown and seems more like an "oh crap" cooldown rather than a steady rate of return.

 

the only thing a self heal analysis would do is set up a ratio for which you should trade mitigation for endurance. for shadows, which get 8% of their health every 12 seconds has a 2.5 ratio required for a trade between endurance and mitigation. i imagine it will be much lower for vanguards, unless they are standing in aoe all the time.

 

edit: found energy shield... a 2min cooldown. I'm going to lump this up with all the other "oh crap" cooldowns and not include it in the mitigation weights (which it wouldnt matter for since it is overall damage reduction). if you guys link torparses for fights where you ahve a bunch of aoe damage procing the self heals, post em up and i will try to give you an endruance vs. mitigation number you can work with.

Edited April 30, 2013 by dipstik

[Yngow]

can u giev me the vanguard equivilent of energy screen and close and personal?

 

if energy shield is ion screen or heat screen, then i already considered those to be up the whole time, so they are accounted for.

 

i wasnt including the area of affect self heal because it didnt seem reliable for a large portion of fights.

 

and the self heal for 10% of health is on a long cooldown and seems more like an "oh crap" cooldown rather than a steady rate of return.

 

the only thing a self heal analysis would do is set up a ratio for which you should trade mitigation for endurance. for shadows, which get 8% of their health every 12 seconds has a 2.5 ratio required for a trade between endurance and mitigation. i imagine it will be much lower for vanguards, unless they are standing in aoe all the time.

Vang equivalent of close and personal would be "into the fray", from patch notes:

"Vanguard: A new Passive ability, Into the Fray, has been added. Into the Fray increases the duration of Reactive Shield by 3 seconds. In addition, suffering direct damage from area of effect attacks restores 2 Energy Cells and heals players for 2.5% of total health. This effect cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds."

I use shoulder cannon on cd, I just watch out not to use it when I'm at 100% health to prevent overheals, but when I know there is a high dmg situation coming up I save it for that.

The area dmg heal I thought it would be unreliable too but after some parses I noticed that my self heals were much higher than I expected, I believe every boss that cleaves will trigger the self heal, and most of the bosses in game cleave.

I will check the healing numbers on my next parses, I just wish that parses would not count overheals, that makes shadows think that the self heal is more effect than it really is (if you use your tk throw everytime you have the proc regardless of your health there will be a lot of overhealing)

Edited April 30, 2013 by Yngow

[dipstik]

alright, so you get 2.5% of your health every 3 seconds?

 

so i am thinking something like

 

10.8*.025/3=0.09 hps per point of endurance for aoe steady fights.

 

shadows get 0.072 hps per point of endruance

 

vanguards have mitigation slope of -2.78754E-05

 

so 1 point of mitigation gives dps*(.000028)

 

at 4500 dps: 0.126 mitigated damage/s per point.

 

wow. if you can trade 1 point of mitigation for 1.4 points of endurance, it is worth the trade for cleave/aoe heavy fights... LOL

 

that means that vanguards would now be the new enduance tanks! but only in the mods (not sure abot earpeices and implants). not in the augments since that is a 1:1 trade.

 

if i set the heal proc rate to 3s plus 1.5 for the boss to hit again we get: 10.8*.025/4.5=0.06, so the ratio would be 2.1, which you can not get form the mods. this ratio changes with the amount of dps too... so for 7k dps fights you would want 2.8 and 4.2 ratios to be worth it.

 

... would like some feedback before i update the OP in any way.

Edited April 30, 2013 by dipstik

[Yngow]

yeah, this is reeeeeally weird lol I was totally overlooking this area attack self heal until I scrolled to the heal tab on parser to check how the healers were doing. I still need to check how often this self heal really kicks in on boss fights, like I said, the kolto overload might be misleading the parser since MOX only says how much healing I did and not how much healing each ability does, and I don't have the habit of uploading my logs. I can try to find on my list a log from the last raids but I think I'll just upload next parse.

[KeyboardNinja]

alright, so you get 2.5% of your health every 3 seconds?

 

No, it would only be as frequent as AoE effects. I do have some data on that (broken down by boss, ability and swing timer):

 

Dash'roode:

 

Groundshatter 0.00773/sec

Gutwrenching Kick 0.03608/sec

 

Titan VI:

 

Lots of Missiles 0.12060/sec (deceptive, since it occurs within a 5 second burst interval)

 

Thrasher:

 

Roar 0.01042/sec

Rocket Launcher 0.00260/sec

Thermal Grenade 0.00260/sec

Stomp 0.05990/sec

Swipe 0.03906/sec

 

Oasis:

 

<none>

 

Olok:

 

Thermal Grenade 0.00218/sec

Flame Sweep 0.00546/sec

Missile Blast 0.02402/sec

 

Cartel Warlords:

 

Explosive Surge 0.00509/sec

Spray and Pray 0.02290/sec (occurs in a specific burst phase)

 

That's really no where near once every 3 seconds.

 

Shoulder Cannon on CD is, I think, a more interesting self-heal. We obviously have to count the AoE damage, but it's no where near as significant as the talent would seem to indicate.

[dipstik]

those are dps numbers from the abilities? or x swings/sec?

[Yngow]

Yeah, it is also heavily dependent on the boss fight, some have a lot of aoes and some no aoes at all like KN just pointed out, an average amount of those bosses would be a good way to account the self heal and gear up for the operation as a whole, but it would be pretty inaccurate for some individual fights. My guess is that 2 or 3 lettered mods will be enough, if any.

[KeyboardNinja]

those are dps numbers from the abilities? or x swings/sec?

 

Swings per second. Sorry, I should have specified.

[dipstik]

you did, just making sure.

 

nothing there makes me think that including the close and personal self heals should be considered as a viable mitigation strategy. there is too much downtime to make endurance rival mitigation in an appreciable way.

[Razzberry]

ive got 21% with the willpower buff. so, they are different. I made a post about it in general and PM'd eric musco, so he shoudl be telling the devs about it sometime.

 

THANK YOU SO MUCH. without you checking this work, that would have gone unnoticed for a while im sure.

 

this goesnt affect the stat weights, but it does affect the overall mitigation, by a little. this will change the tradeoff between strength/power and mitigation, for the self absorb.

 

Oh wow. Hopefully they fix it. I guess it's just 1% extra mitigation on 2% of incoming damage, but still.

[dipstik]

Oh wow. Hopefully they fix it. I guess it's just 1% extra mitigation on 2% of incoming damage, but still.

 

thats what you get for turning to the darkside. lol

[Naritara]

Proc defense and elite war hero. Or use shield absorb on use if you don't have ewh.

 

Why elite war hero Healy relic? Ark has 103 more stat

[dipstik]

Why elite war hero Healy relic? Ark has 103 more stat

 

im talking about the old +120 mitigation stat relic.

[alkhattabi]

iv noticed in the BiS link for shadow tank u swapped all the B mods to heavy stat mod, thought you recommended B mods + is proc def and healing proc relics still good ? i don't have the EHW def and not fan of click relics

[dipstik]

iv noticed in the BiS link for shadow tank u swapped all the B mods to heavy stat mod, thought you recommended B mods + is proc def and healing proc relics still good ? i don't have the EHW def and not fan of click relics

 

You need to be able to trade 1 point of mitigation for 2.5 points of endurance to make it worth the trade. In underworld gear you only get as 1 to 2 trade.

 

Def proc and a heal relic is stiil good if you don't like clicky ones, and you don't have the ewh. It is in fact better than ewh for most fights.

 

I will double check the heal vs pvp and update the amr if needed

 

edit: think i changed to pvp relic to calc the mitigation and forgot to change it back. heal relic is better unless dps is 6k, which is only thrasher and maybe last boss.

Edited May 2, 2013 by dipstik

[Hockaday]

I see in your build, that you use a healing relic and proc defense again. Wouldn't it be best to use the two healing relics on fights that are sub 4519 dps, and then switch to the proc absorb and defense (excluding ewh) on fights that are above 4519 dps, such as Thrasher? Or is the healing relic still better than absorb, even at +4519 dps.

 

My current plan is just to carry the four relics with me, and switch them on those fights.

[Yngow]

Is there an updated spreadsheet for 2.0 online? I'm trying to figure out the limit on f/t+e/k and r/m+e/k ratio for making the absorb proc better than def proc for powertechs so I can figure out the best relics for each individual fight, I got the boss data on KN post and added the percentages (not considering i/e dmg cause it won't mitigate anyways).

Format:

 

m/r+k/e m/r+i/e

f/t+k/e f/t+i/e

 

Dash'roode:

3909 (98,82%) 0

47 (1,18%) 0

 

Titan VI:

1546 (57,56%) 0

1140 (42,44%) 0

 

Thrasher:

5177 (81,07%) 0

1209 (18,93%) 11

 

Oasis:

3061 (68,92%) 0

1380 (31,08%) 0

 

Olok:

1697 (64,43%) 0

937 (35,57%) 204

 

Cartel Warlords:

4360 (89,07%) 0

535 (10,93%) 131

 

Titan looks promising for the absorb relic, maybe olok and oasis but I did no math to confirm. Usually I would put all bosses and relics data on my tanking spreadsheet but I don't have one for post 2.0 (made one when it hit the pts and then BW changed everything) so I could figure out the best for each boss for my toon's current stats since the best relic also depends on your current stats. If the absorb relic is better for those 3 bosses it would make 50/50 on the operation, except for last boss which I don't have data but I guess he does a lot of force dmg (and the dragon melee/kinectic probably).

 

 

On another subject do you guys think bioware will change the static def boost on the def proc relic to leave it like the others or do you think this is intended to give more value on def over absorb? idk why they always screw up on relics, its the same as the uptime on campaign/rakata relics over DG relics that would make average mitigation on some DG worse than the lower tier relics.

[dipstik]

I see in your build, that you use a healing relic and proc defense again. Wouldn't it be best to use the two healing relics on fights that are sub 4519 dps, and then switch to the proc absorb and defense (excluding ewh) on fights that are above 4519 dps, such as Thrasher? Or is the healing relic still better than absorb, even at +4519 dps.

 

My current plan is just to carry the four relics with me, and switch them on those fights.

 

if u look at the OP i give the dps where the underwolrd heal relic equals the other relics:

 

 

mit=634 heal dps

def proc 4519

abs proc 5625

shd use 5945

pvp 5913

use def 10902

 

conquerer heal relic is better than defense proc unless dps>3450

 

so for under 3450, 2 healing relics would be best,

for 3450+ to 5913 you want def proc and underwolrd healing.

for 5913+ def proc and elite war hero (or on use shield)

Edited May 3, 2013 by dipstik