A New Take On Smash: The Brainstorm

[JohraTon]

Easy fix. Replace "auto crit" with "60% chance to crit" like in the vengeance tree therefore not allowing people to max stack power. You wanna have a crit on sweep? Can't stack 1300+ power and have a 20% with buff crit chance and have your crits all the time. Forces management of another stats, something that every other spec has to think about if they want to properly dps (except a carnage marauder, but people have left that witch hunt in favor of the rage/focus one )

 

^^ This

 

Ignoring crit gives you the option to stack a ton extra smash damage. Take away the auto crit and you're looking at maybe 1/5 massive hits rather than 5/5

[Jadescythe]

I do appreciate all of the replies, so thank you for taking interest in coming up with a solution. I do not like straight changing the crit chance for 2 reasons.

 

1) It completely negates the work of countless players who have spent time min/maxing their gear (if you do make this change, BW, please do it with 1.6 so they at least have the chance to start over with EWH gear). In case you are wondering, this is not me as I don't even have a full set of gear yet on my jugg.

 

2) It does not make the spec anymore interesting to play, which was the goal of my solutions to begin with. I'm fine with making changes to the crit chance, but leave the option for an autocrit out there and make people work for it. Make them find ways to keep all the buffs up to maximize their damage without it being 3 buttons, leap, endure pain, smash.

[Wallach]

People hitting for 7k are geared, auged WH players.

 

 

I have played this spec from launch so it was not a FOTM. I was playing it when nobody even knew what it was.

 

I am optimized and spent a lot of time and coms tweaking my personal wrecking ball. And I agree that it has been turned into a cluster but with TTK the way it is and sorc bubbles causing havoc... burst is all we (rage Juggs) got.

 

I don't think people are looking to remove Rage's ability to burst at all. But being able to burst as hard in AoE - consistently - as any other class is only able to do on single targets has to go. Burst like that simply cannot be AoE.

 

I'm already sick enough of it that I don't care what solution gets applied even though I have a Juggernaut myself. Just get rid of it. One of the three biggest class balance issues in the game right now, and it needs solved (along with the stupid stun bubble and Operative PvE DPS being in the bin).

[UncleOst]

This thread is ridiculous.

 

This far into the game, and you folks decide how the shi-cho spec should be re-designed...really? Do you actually take yerselves seriously?

 

You obviously have way too much time on yer hands for this kind of tripe. Perhaps there should be a thread created on how easy it is to kill a shi-cho jug/guard. Or at the very least how to engage them. Anyone?

[L-RANDLE]

This thread is ridiculous.

 

This far into the game, and you folks decide how the shi-cho spec should be re-designed...really? Do you actually take yerselves seriously?

 

You obviously have way too much time on yer hands for this kind of tripe. Perhaps there should be a thread created on how easy it is to kill a shi-cho jug/guard. Or at the very least how to engage them. Anyone?

 

Root 'em/kite 'em/damage 'em: Just like any other melee class in the game. Obviously its a L2P issue, but people don't want to hear that, so startup the NEEEEEERRRRRRF Train...

 

Anyone want to start a Nerf Train line? I'll be the guy with the huge afro, yelling L2P...

[CharterMonkKent]

Clearly rage/focus needs to become a healing tree. All attacks are on friendlies but they heal instead of hurt.

 

Fixed.

[L-RANDLE]

Clearly rage/focus needs to become a healing tree. All attacks are on friendlies but they heal instead of hurt.

 

Fixed.

EPIC!!!

 

 

+5 Skynets!

[Smashbrother]

Just reduce the auto crit to something like 50-60%, so guardians can't simply ignore crit. The reason why people get bombed so hard is because focus can stack power and mostly ignore crit, which is something no other class can do.

 

I also wouldn't mind singularity buffing blade storm instead of sweep either.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Smashbrother

[filipesantana]

Clearly rage/focus needs to become a healing tree. All attacks are on friendlies but they heal instead of hurt.

 

Fixed.

 

This..PLEASE!!cat play this crap anymore

[NuSeC]

Just reduce the auto crit to something like 50-60%, so guardians can't simply ignore crit. The reason why people get bombed so hard is because focus can stack power and mostly ignore crit, which is something no other class can do.

 

I also wouldn't mind singularity buffing blade storm instead of sweep either.

 

Clearly you have no idea how much time goes into tweaking your gear.

 

 

I am not going to really listen to change the crit... you know it has been that way from scratch?

 

 

I also have a full set of auged WH tank gear that I wont wear because tanking in PVP is pointless and shield and defense don't do anything in pvp.

The only good spec for Juggs ATM is the rage tree.... so before crying to have it broke as well maybe they can fix the others so we can have an option of running something else.

 

ALSO, Pro tips from a rage jugg:

1) Continue stacking on top of each other (like a bunch of kittens trying to stay warm) when you're on the opposing team.... we hate that.

2) if we are fighting you run into a group... that hurts our dps

3) Don't worry about checking on our buffs above our health bar... 4 stacks of shockwave mean nothing.

Edited December 4, 2012 by NuSeC

[L-RANDLE]

Just reduce the auto crit to something like 50-60%, so guardians can't simply ignore crit. The reason why people get bombed so hard is because focus can stack power and mostly ignore crit, which is something no other class can do.

 

I also wouldn't mind singularity buffing blade storm instead of sweep either.

 

But people would still get bombed and still QQ about it... Crit chance is not the reason, its just too damn strong because of the multiplication of Sing/Shock and Reso. And if you are dropping crit, then you must not value your other melee abilities... That's why it makes the most sense to move sing/shock to proc a non-force attack, namely Slash/VS. Then:

 

1. You can still benefit from the +30% crit multiplier on Sweep with full Focus/Rage Spec, it would hit in the neighborhood of 4K.

2. Buff the base damage of Sweep to yield ~5K crits on WH geared players(buff the base damage by 20%) and not affect other trees, namely hybrids, Full Vig/Ven.

3. BS/SCR would still benefit from the +30% crit multiplier for Full spec'd. No change here. and also why carriying

4. Slash now become vital in the DPS rotation for the tree, and also make carrying "no crit" stupid (which I think is dumb now because you basically are assured to never crit on MS/RAV, SL/VS, or anything else but Swe/Sma for that matter).

 

My 2cents....

[filipesantana]

Clearly you have no idea how much time goes into tweaking your gear.

 

 

I am not going to really listen to change the crit... you know it has been that way from scratch?

 

 

I also have a full set of auged WH tank gear that I wont wear because tanking in PVP is pointless and shield and defense dont do anything in pvp.

The only good spec for Juggs ATM is the rage tree.... so before crying to have it broke as well maybe they can fix the others so we can have an option of running something else.

 

ALSO, Pro tips from a rage jugg:

1) Continue stacking on top of each other (like a bunch of kittens trying to stay warm) when you on the opposing team.... we hate that.

2) if we are fighting you run into a group... that hurts our dps

3) Dont worry about checking on our buffs above our health bar... 4 stacks of shockwave mean nothing.

Fix vengeance and make it competitive ...NERF rage to oblivion I can't stand playing it anymore...

[Smashbrother]

Clearly you have no idea how much time goes into tweaking your gear.

 

 

I am not going to really listen to change the crit... you know it has been that way from scratch?

 

 

I also have a full set of auged WH tank gear that I wont wear because tanking in PVP is pointless and shield and defense don't do anything in pvp.

The only good spec for Juggs ATM is the rage tree.... so before crying to have it broke as well maybe they can fix the others so we can have an option of running something else.

 

ALSO, Pro tips from a rage jugg:

1) Continue stacking on top of each other (like a bunch of kittens trying to stay warm) when you're on the opposing team.... we hate that.

2) if we are fighting you run into a group... that hurts our dps

3) Don't worry about checking on our buffs above our health bar... 4 stacks of shockwave mean nothing.

 

Just because something has been that way from the start doesn't mean it doesn't need fixing. That is the stupidest logic I've seen on the forums in a while.

 

If we change the auto crit to like 50-60, then guardians can't simply stack power. This means people won't get bombed for 7k. There will be less crying.

[Smashbrother]

But people would still get bombed and still QQ about it... Crit chance is not the reason, its just too damn strong because of the multiplication of Sing/Shock and Reso. And if you are dropping crit, then you must not value your other melee abilities... That's why it makes the most sense to move sing/shock to proc a non-force attack, namely Slash/VS. Then:

 

1. You can still benefit from the +30% crit multiplier on Sweep with full Focus/Rage Spec, it would hit in the neighborhood of 4K.

2. Buff the base damage of Sweep to yield ~5K crits on WH geared players(buff the base damage by 20%) and not affect other trees, namely hybrids, Full Vig/Ven.

3. BS/SCR would still benefit from the +30% crit multiplier for Full spec'd. No change here. and also why carriying

4. Slash now become vital in the DPS rotation for the tree, and also make carrying "no crit" stupid (which I think is dumb now because you basically are assured to never crit on MS/RAV, SL/VS, or anything else but Swe/Sma for that matter).

 

My 2cents....

 

I don't feel focus needs a huge nerf, just a slight one. Thus, I just want them to lower the auto crit so focus can't ignore crit rating and only stack power. This means the sweeps will hit less hard, which is less QQ.

 

This will also normalize the gear so it works equally effective for vig and focus trees, because right now, focus is all about power, while vig requires at least 30-35% crit. If you min/max for focus, the gear will be subpar if u ever feel like switching to vig, and vice versa.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Smashbrother

[NuSeC]

Just because something has been that way from the start doesn't mean it doesn't need fixing. That is the stupidest logic I've seen on the forums in a while.

 

If we change the auto crit to like 50-60, then guardians can't simply stack power. This means people won't get bombed for 7k. There will be less crying.

 

The dumbest logic is to call for the wrong nerfs rather than learning to play... or asking for the right nerfs

 

It was not until 1.4 that it changed being able to enrage and get your stacks.

AND

When you have your stacks now you dont need to build rage to cash in on smash.

 

Before 1.4 a lot more resource management was in order because of the cost of the moves in the rage tree.

 

Now it is not nearly as hard. Putting it back the way it was would fix the QQ because the real rage juggs know how to manage their resources. FOTMs don't because they never had to.

 

That's all that needs done. Starve the tree like it used to be and make people work to build up the rage before cashing it in.

 

Problem solved

 

-- You're welcome.

[CharterMonkKent]

The dumbest logic is to call for the wrong nerfs rather than learning to play... or asking for the right nerfs

 

It was not until 1.4 that it changed being able to enrage and get your stacks.

AND

When you have your stacks now you dont need to build rage to cash in on smash.

 

Before 1.4 a lot more resource management was in order because of the cost of the moves in the rage tree.

 

Now it is not nearly as hard. Putting it back the way it was would fix the QQ because the real rage juggs know how to manage their resources. FOTMs don't because they never had to.

 

That's all that needs done. Starve the tree like it used to be and make people work to build up the rage before cashing it in.

 

Problem solved

 

-- You're welcome.

 

Solved for PvP but not for PvE. Rage was too resource heavy before the changes. Many fights do not allow juggs to intercede away from the boss than leap back in to build rage. Not sure how they will fix things.

 

After all this is said and done we may finally see diminishing returns added to power.

Edited December 4, 2012 by CharterMonkKent

[NuSeC]

Solved for PvP but not for PvE. Rage was too resource heavy before the changes. Many fights do not allow juggs to intercede away from the boss than leap back in to build rage. Not sure how they will fix things.

 

After all this is said and done we may finally see diminishing returns added to power.

 

 

A diminishing return to power may fix it as well. That would hit everyone and not just rage spec warriors.

 

And this is the PVP forum hence my response was pvp not pve related. But I do agree with you, The reason for the change in the first place was to make the class viable in PVE. Something I thought they would have done for our beloved Operatives and Scoundrels

[RogueNights]

After leveling a jug to 50 and gearing it almost to wh since the buff.. I’ve played a 100s of games in lowbie perpetually rolling people doing multiples of the next best dps.. and effortlessly got most of wh at 50… however I can’t say I’ve come to the conclusion that they are op at a high level of play.. However would say more than any other class they punish people who don’t repond and just play as usual when facing them.. People complain about “burst aoe”… however its also the longest to set up and easiest to avoid.. when your playing people who know what they are doing, its painful, they anticipate it and hitting 2+ people becomes the exception, not the rule…

 

A huge portion of players do use non adaptive/non responsive straties in wz tho… and just spamming derpsmash can be so ironically dominant against non adaptive strategies that it’s a bit absurd.. when you want to just midlessly dps/heal/tank, its no fun to play against smashers, b/c they’ll always win.

 

So essentially, am not sure it will be nerfed… If this game was brand new I think bw would.. because very basic strategies that are much more dominant than other basic strategies cause mass rage b/c everyone is at the basic point in terms of learning the game and they only have 1 toon.. however at this point I think it could stay. And last patch definitely seems to indicate it could. Jugs afterall got the biggest buff in 1.6.. being able to respec out of smashing when on maps its not as good is pretty huge..

[Kawiki]

It is basically the kind of suggestions to not to apply.

 

Firstly, by decreasing Sweep/Smash damage by a huge amount like these 40% instead of tweaking talents in the Focus/Rage spec, it will -in addition of nerfing the spec- nerf all other specs, which doesn't deserve it : for all other DPS spec, Smash/Sweep is just a random AoE which is just average, for tank spec, the skill is already lower than average because of Generators nerfing Force Power.

 

Secondly by allowing Blade Storm/Force Scream to be increased as well, you will give them the ability to have a god-like burst. These two abilities are already higher than Sweep/Smash with a good margin when they're not buffed... Now imagine them with the same kind of buff : if the AoEs were already able to hit over 7000 in each WZ, Force Scream/Blade Storm will be able to litteraly hit over 9000 (I repeat : litteraly, there is no "over 9000" joke)

 

I've played both Combat and Focus extensivly and Blade Storm as a Combat Sentinel hits for less then the average Sweep in focus.

 

I've also played a sage @ 50 and a Shadow (my main), there is simply nothing that equals the destructive power of the lolsmashers now.

 

Blade Storm would not hit for over 9000, it would be slightly less then what a sweep does now. I think you are forgetting the 20% that's added to Sweep that would not be included in a Blade Storm.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Kawiki

[L-RANDLE]

I don't feel focus needs a huge nerf, just a slight one. Thus, I just want them to lower the auto crit so focus can't ignore crit rating and only stack power. This means the sweeps will hit less hard, which is less QQ.

 

This will also normalize the gear so it works equally effective for vig and focus trees, because right now, focus is all about power, while vig requires at least 30-35% crit. If you min/max for focus, the gear will be subpar if u ever feel like switching to vig, and vice versa.

 

I am saying stacking power is always a better option for DPS.... Even if they eliminated the autocrit all together, the fact that there is a 6% force critical talent on tier 1 means geared players will still have 30%+ chance to crit on smash. People still would get slapped around for 6-9k crits and still QQ about it..

 

30-35% crit chance(buffed) is BiS and most PvP observers agree that 35% chance "acts" more like a 60% chance in time small timeframe of a WZ, so nothing would change. Stack Sing/Shock>>Swe/Sma.

[funkiestj]

Props to OP for creating a constructive topic of discussion rather than just QQing. Ditto for all the good discussion.

[Smashbrother]

I am saying stacking power is always a better option for DPS.... Even if they eliminated the autocrit all together, the fact that there is a 6% force critical talent on tier 1 means geared players will still have 30%+ chance to crit on smash. People still would get slapped around for 6-9k crits and still QQ about it..

 

30-35% crit chance(buffed) is BiS and most PvP observers agree that 35% chance "acts" more like a 60% chance in time small timeframe of a WZ, so nothing would change. Stack Sing/Shock>>Swe/Sma.

 

Stacking power is not always the best option. In fact, for most classes it's better to stack main stat because of consular buff and talents that inc main stat.

 

You can lower the auto crit talent to whatever amount you think would be good so that focus can't simply stack power upon power and get massive crits. People whine about getting massively crit, this fixes it because you won't get hit as hard.

[Smashbrother]

The dumbest logic is to call for the wrong nerfs rather than learning to play... or asking for the right nerfs

 

It was not until 1.4 that it changed being able to enrage and get your stacks.

AND

When you have your stacks now you dont need to build rage to cash in on smash.

 

Before 1.4 a lot more resource management was in order because of the cost of the moves in the rage tree.

 

Now it is not nearly as hard. Putting it back the way it was would fix the QQ because the real rage juggs know how to manage their resources. FOTMs don't because they never had to.

 

That's all that needs done. Starve the tree like it used to be and make people work to build up the rage before cashing it in.

 

Problem solved

 

-- You're welcome.

 

Focus never was hard. Even at launch, the spec had no resource issues unless you were spamming slash all day. You always had enough to sweep bomb every time the cd was up. Your change isn't going to stop the QQ since focus will still hit just as hard as it does now.

 

All your change does is gimp focus in pve, w/o doing anything for pvp.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Smashbrother

[neocoma]

Keep in mind ...rage)focus is grounded on smash/sweep and that's about it. Almost everything in these trees supports the said abilities on way or another. So nerfing the core ability might break the spec. Just saying, nerf only wont do if you really want to get rid of burst potencial. However, it is an AOE spec and renderign it to uselessness is something I also consider a broken tree.

 

Maybe a slight reduce in singularity and a reduce to smash cds to use that ability more frequently but with less impact would do. To take out the burst and make it more substained dmg. Just a quick idea ...nothin fancy

[L-RANDLE]

Stacking power is not always the best option. In fact, for most classes it's better to stack main stat because of consular buff and talents that inc main stat.

 

You can lower the auto crit talent to whatever amount you think would be good so that focus can't simply stack power upon power and get massive crits. People whine about getting massively crit, this fixes it because you won't get hit as hard.

and power increases damage bonus, so the knight buff is better from stacking power... Its a roundabout way, but either way stacking power or main, there is virtually no difference and either is still more favorable in a DPS or HPS. I am looking at my guardian right now. I have ~900 bonus damage, ~35% force crit rating, 79% multiplier... So I am still sweeping for big numbers, regardless of the autocrit proc, soley because of the 100% sing/shoc proc and 30% additional multiplier on the Focus tree. The more players I get in my recticles, the better the chance to hit for those big numbers. Trust me, if I even crit on one person for that massive number, QQ will continue.