Wattser Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 As for the meters, I have a suggestion: an <End Flashpoint/Operation Report>, just like in the end of Warzones. Voilá, you can consult who's doing their jobs right. DPS, Healing, Protection, MVP vote also (why not?)... It's all there. This really doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure I could do over 2 mil in healing and never get past the first boss. Grand totals mean nothing in PvE or PvP for that matter. Just give us a combat log so we can let 3rd party programs analyze our data. So you can see, why your tank spiked, who does the most burst for burn phases, etc. And just seeing a number for someones DPS and judging them on that you will fail with or without a meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentone Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Content is already being downed that shows the game doesn't need add-ons(dpsmeters, tanking). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 If you dont want addons dont use them then. Addons are made for people that want to use them and customize their UI or make the game easier because they might find it to hard (highly doubtful) but its up to you if you want to use them or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwaternvy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why exactly do you not want addons available? If you don't like them, don't use them. This. If you dont like them simply dont use them. The choice should be left to the player and their use is subjective. Other players simply stating "No Addons" shouldn't be able to determine how I want to play the game with or with out them. Also... addons are user generated creating extensions of this game beyond just the game IE curse etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvnStrSlm Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Blah blah blah, Im all for UI customization but tools that tell you when and how to do things in a boss fight is lame and border line cheating. I love how we get two great new games, Rift and SWTOR yet all people want is WoW X.0. Why cant we have just a classic pure game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perkunas Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Stevie Wonder could tell you the UI is garbage and is in dire need of community intervention. Pretending like there isn't a problem just comes off as insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvnStrSlm Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Stevie Wonder could tell you the UI is garbage and is in dire need of community intervention. Pretending like there isn't a problem just comes off as insanity. I also think we need to make a distinction between UI customization addons and tool addons. I agree that the UI is very limiting when it comes to hot bars and positioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gelich Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 bioware promised that swtor would be different from all the other mmo's, and so far, they delivered on their promises. I admit, I LOL'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berktheboss Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Sometimes I wonder if the SWOTR community is made up of all the bad players who got kicked from their WoW guilds for sucking. "No dps/hps meters! No combat logs! I don't want to be held accountable for my performance! There's a better way, and it includes you ignoring that our most recent wipe was my fault!" This thread is pathetic. If you don't want to use add ons, you don't have to. The very argument that it makes things easier should only mean that you have less reason to use them if you don't want to. The argument defeats itself. I agree with this. However I think we should definately avoid any Deadly Boss Mods type add on, it just made boss mechanics trivial. In regards to DPS meters and stuff... I have a friend who in playing this as his first MMO. Frankly he has know idea how well he's doing because he can't compare his dps output, he has no way of knowing whether he's is improving at all. Also as GM what do I do when we are at a Nightmare boss not able to beat an enrage timer? I know when a tanks messes up, I know when the healers mess up. With DPS....well, I have no idea who is pulling their weight. I think that is a route cause of a lot of the resistance. It gives you somewhere to hide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragnor Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) LOL This topic again. I am all for UI mods and the ability to customize and move things around, but they are already working on allowing the ui to be customized, so that is kind of done with, now it's just a matter of waiting for it to be released. As for DPS meters, and those sorts of mods, I at first hated em, cus I felt they were just an e-peen enhancer for the rhetoric elitist jerks worshipers, but eventually you know I found ways through it to enhance my dps, so I did come to a mindset of the following. If you don't like the elitists, don't become one, don't listen to em, and just ignore them, but don't let your dislike for them and their tools prevent you from bettering yourself as a player, and a guild member. Even if it means finding out for yourself how to play your class better, use the tools available to you. Bettering yourself as a player doesn't equal sacrificing the fun of the game, it can make the game more fun, especially when you know you worked hard to stand out among your guild. Humans by nature are competitive, and being the best you can at whatever you enjoy falls into that nature, so don't lie to others, or yourself when you say you wouldn't have fun being good, or the best at your class on your server or in your guild. Edited February 7, 2012 by Kragnor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berktheboss Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 LOL This topic again. I am all for UI mods and the ability to customize and move things around, but they are already working on allowing the ui to be customized, so that is kind of done with, now it's just a matter of waiting for it to be released. As for DPS meters, and those sorts of mods, I at first hated em, cus I felt they were just an e-peen enhancer for the rhetoric elitist jerks worshipers, but eventually you know I found ways through it to enhance my dps, so I did come to a mindset of the following. If you don't like the elitists, don't become one, don't listen to em, and just ignore them, but don't let your dislike for them and their tools prevent you from bettering yourself as a player, and a guild member. Even if it means finding out for yourself how to play your class better, use the tools available to you. Bettering yourself as a player doesn't equal sacrificing the fun of the game, it can make the game more fun, especially when you know you worked hard to stand out among your guild. Humans by nature are competitive, and being the best you can at whatever you enjoy falls into that nature, so don't lie to others, or yourself when you say you wouldn't have fun being a good, or the best at your class on your server or in your guild. I like your style Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykomyke Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I agree with this. However I think we should definately avoid any Deadly Boss Mods type add on, it just made boss mechanics trivial. In regards to DPS meters and stuff... I have a friend who in playing this as his first MMO. Frankly he has know idea how well he's doing because he can't compare his dps output, he has no way of knowing whether he's is improving at all. Also as GM what do I do when we are at a Nightmare boss not able to beat an enrage timer? I know when a tanks messes up, I know when the healers mess up. With DPS....well, I have no idea who is pulling their weight. I think that is a route cause of a lot of the resistance. It gives you somewhere to hide. Because automatically it's a DPS's fault right? Most bosses these days are more about positioning, paying attention to hazards then anything. Take SOA for example. The fight is more about how much your members pay attention to their lightning balls then anything else. Phase 3 is more about positioning and unloading DPS when the pylon breaks his shield then anything else. And since phase 3 is more about burst dps then anything else how would a meter help? You'd have to reset it just for phase 3 to determine whos pulling their weight on phase 3. And some classes have better burst dps given the timeframe for Soa's shield, then other classes that may have better overall consistent DPS. There's a lot of things people don't take into account. DPS meters are a metric, and I can see their merits. But they have been abused and overused by people who don't understand them in "that game that we shall not name" to the point of inaneness. I would prefer that the developers keep control over this game rather then add-on developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berktheboss Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Because automatically it's a DPS's fault right? Most bosses these days are more about positioning, paying attention to hazards then anything. Take SOA for example. The fight is more about how much your members pay attention to their lightning balls then anything else. Phase 3 is more about positioning and unloading DPS when the pylon breaks his shield then anything else. And since phase 3 is more about burst dps then anything else how would a meter help? You'd have to reset it just for phase 3 to determine whos pulling their weight on phase 3. And some classes have better burst dps given the timeframe for Soa's shield, then other classes that may have better overall consistent DPS. There's a lot of things people don't take into account. DPS meters are a metric, and I can see their merits. But they have been abused and overused by people who don't understand them in "that game that we shall not name" to the point of inaneness. I would prefer that the developers keep control over this game rather then add-on developers. You assume too much. I was using a singular example of no meeting an enrage timer. In most circumstances thats a dps issue. You assume I am always blame Dps. It was an example, get over it. You assume I dont know the difference between sustained and burst DPS classes. I never mentioned who should develop the addons, your assuming again. Bioware could for all I care. At the moment its all too carebear. Give people the tools in which to improve. From the over reaction of your post I assume you had bad experiences in wow. Bad luck, roll with nicer people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perkunas Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I also think we need to make a distinction between UI customization addons and tool addons. I agree that the UI is very limiting when it comes to hot bars and positioning. Timers(dots/hots), better cooldown notifications, raid frame modification, buff/debuff display, click-to-cast healing, scaling, performance tracking tools. All these things have become the standard and to fail to include them while not providing an API is blatant idiocy on the part of the devs. Edited February 7, 2012 by Perkunas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentone Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The devs are already working on UI customization. But dps meters are not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perkunas Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The devs are already working on UI customization. But dps meters are not needed. Being against DPS meters is downright stupid when EVERY BLOODY ENCOUNTER has an enrage timer. Do you have any idea how moronic it is to be against DPS meters in this scenario? If you want to design a game where numbers don't matter simply remove all enrage mechanics and have bosses randomly just die. "How much health does the boss have?" "It doesn't matter keep attacking!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdense Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) a) have you ever tried to heal at end game level without addons? Not fun at least in WoW but this game seems to have a lot less healing mechanics and need than WoW so I don't know. b) Some of the addons I would like to use have nothing to do with game play. I want a UI modification ability because right now my quest stuff is HUGE and makes side bars pointless. The addons or functions I miss most in this game are Bartender, Recount, and Auctionator. That's most likely what I'd be installing if addons were allowable. Also something that lets me move unit frames around. c) I'd be happy right now with just the ability to use macros. That's one of my favorite aspects of WoW. This game feels like MMO for special people without the ability to really fit your play to you. I want to have my keybinds be exactly what I want... what makes me different than every other Jedi Sage then? Edited February 7, 2012 by Kdense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perkunas Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) This is a repost from a thread back in the beta forums. I'm posting it again because it's obvious they didn't read it. "This game needs a great many features to compete with an already established game. I know many of you are going to throw a tizzy, but the truth of the matter is we NEED mods/macros/add-ons to get into the game as soon as possible. The most glaring issue in my eyes is how utterly awful the default UI is and the complete lack of customization will be a major headache for those of us that come from games where we're used to having these things. Major issues for me include how ginormous the useless parts of the UI is. It's FRIKKEN HUGE! There's far too much clutter, fluff and things that could be shrunken down to half their current size if not smaller. Things that are large are typically unimportant, and things that are too small are extremely important. Cooldowns, procs, buffs, debuffs are all tiny. Don't get me started on the raid frames. If you guys want to make a solid raid frame I suggest you load up Warcraft and download the Grid mod. Here's a sample of a raid UI one of my old guildmates used back during Wrath of the Lich King. Notice the cooldown trackers and how clear and easy they are to read. The tracking of buffs and debuffs on the raid frames, healing incoming, aggro, resources all in a single easy to read frame. That is very typical for healing players. Information is king when you're a healer in a raid and the way we customize our UI's is vital to our raid's success. From looking at the UI that's currently in the game it's as if you don't have the input of a single healer on your team and that needs to be remedied quickly. Certain things would go a long way to make healers happier and better raid frames and information displaying would be a great step to take. I'm also making a plea for Click-to-cast or mouse-over healing macros to allow us to heal without having to drop our current target. For those of you not familiar click-to-cast and mouse-overs bind certain heals to a combination of key and mouse clicks that you use on your raid frames. It saves healers a step in having to click the target then hit the heal. We can simply hover over our selected target, press our click for the heal we want and the heal casts without dropping your current target. It can shave minutes off of an average raid night. This is an important thing when your encounters make you pay attention to your environment and you can't afford to tunnel. I'm a big fan of content that's not stand and spam. I want things like positioning, movement, resource management, and complex rotations to play a part in the healing game, and I'm afraid that with your UI as it is you're counting on it(the UI) being the most difficult challenge your healers are meant to face. A good game lets it's content push it's healers and it doesn't rely on battling the UI to create a false sense of difficulty. As a healer and a progression raider looking for a new home I'm begging you, Bioware... Please... Push the mods/macros/add-ons out as fast as you possibly can. At the very least include these things I've mentioned as options within the default UI and allow far more customization. Hell, give me a meter of some kind to judge performance so I wont have to rely on an out of game parser reading the combat log at launch. I want to get the most from my character and I'd rather do it with tools that are in the game by default. People want the difficulty of the game to come from the content itself and not stumbling through a terrible base UI." Edited February 7, 2012 by Perkunas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bele Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I love how people feel like they are incapable of learning how to play their character effectively without some type of add-on. Poor little scrubs can't live without their crutch. I wonder how some of you managed to raid back in the day before add-ons...oh wait you didn't as most of you had EZ mode WoW as your first MMO. It's one thing to have a parser FOR YOURSELF to manage your rotation, but other than that, most add-ons were a joke and nothing more than a crutch for bad players to judge other bad players. Ahh the days in vanilla when threathmeter was banned on Broodlord. those were interesting ( and expensive) days lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Look at the kill mail system in Eve. It's very useful and yet doesn't interfere with the game, content or anything of that nature. I'd like something like that, personally and kill boards would be EPIC. But yeah healbot? Really? At what point is the game playing itself? Part of the skill it takes to raid is in paying attention and figuring out how to put out more damage and be more effective. Addons like this take away those as options for what separates me from bads. I don't want addons that make stuff so easy that the game plays itself. Edited February 7, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentone Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Being against DPS meters is downright stupid when EVERY BLOODY ENCOUNTER has an enrage timer. Do you have any idea how moronic it is to be against DPS meters in this scenario? If you want to design a game where numbers don't matter simply remove all enrage mechanics and have bosses randomly just die. "How much health does the boss have?" "It doesn't matter keep attacking!" Content is being downed without them atm so there not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apla Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 But yeah healbot? Really? At what point is the game playing itself? Do you know what Healbot does (since 2.0)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apla Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Ahh the days in vanilla when threathmeter was banned on Broodlord. those were interesting ( and expensive) days lol How was any threatmeter ever banned? Only one type of addon in WoW has been specifically banned from being used, everything else Blizzard didn't want was simply rendered inoperable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perkunas Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Content is being downed without them atm so there not needed. I've done the content and it sucks(Normal/Hard/Nightmare). When it's not broken/bugged everything falls over. The difficulty from the encounters relies more on the worthless UI than it does the mechanics. If that's the crappy kind of raiding you want to do go right ahead. I've rerolled and am now focusing on PVP because the PVE in this game is trash. I want compelling content. I want what Warcraft used to create before TOGC, but clearly no dev thinks it's worth the effort to make content that interesting and fun. Edited February 7, 2012 by Perkunas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotha Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 How about just give me a fing combat log. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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