Will the Mary Sue factor be dialled down in chapter 4?

[Gomla]

I know it, since it's not Sue, why is SW Sue?

 

I'm not arguing that Star Wars has Sue style characters. My one and only point is that some stories, both in Star Wars and in other titles, have characters that "stretch belief" if you will.

 

Like I said with Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

 

For those that read modern fantasy you may know of David Gemmell who wrote the Druss and Waylander books. Druss being a woodsman that ends up an almost invincible axeman able to take on small armies on his own. He is still able to do so in his old age when it took a poisoned blade to weaken him and even then he keeps bloody fighting.

 

Waylander, the king of assassins. Able to kill any target anywhere. Ends up being injured and healed by a mystical creature that rapidly slows down his ageing process. Considering his age has been slowed down, he reaches a point where he has gone grey and wrinkled (some say in his hundreds) and he's still able to outkill younger assassins and creatures from other dimensions.

 

Every style of fantasy has characters that come across far more "powerful" than the average. It's done to make heroes not sue's.

 

Not many people want to read a book or watch a film about Bob the accountant and his everyday life. They want to read/watch about people like themselves that rise up into something more. Or about already great people taking on some big bad somewhere.

 

They want to forget about their lives and see a different world. That's what makes Science Fiction and Fantasy perfect for some people.

 

It can be argued (as it is being done here) that some of those characters are sue like but that's what makes it good.

 

Some characters are far fetched but with Science Fiction and Fantasy, some degree of belief suspension is required.

[Slowpokeking]

I'm not arguing that Star Wars has Sue style characters. My one and only point is that some stories, both in Star Wars and in other titles, have characters that "stretch belief" if you will.

 

Like I said with Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

 

For those that read modern fantasy you may know of David Gemmell who wrote the Druss and Waylander books. Druss being a woodsman that ends up an almost invincible axeman able to take on small armies on his own. He is still able to do so in his old age when it took a poisoned blade to weaken him and even then he keeps bloody fighting.

 

Waylander, the king of assassins. Able to kill any target anywhere. Ends up being injured and healed by a mystical creature that rapidly slows down his ageing process. Considering his age has been slowed down, he reaches a point where he has gone grey and wrinkled (some say in his hundreds) and he's still able to outkill younger assassins and creatures from other dimensions.

 

Every style of fantasy has characters that come across far more "powerful" than the average. It's done to make heroes not sue's.

 

Not many people want to read a book or watch a film about Bob the accountant and his everyday life. They want to read/watch about people like themselves that rise up into something more. Or about already great people taking on some big bad somewhere.

 

They want to forget about their lives and see a different world. That's what makes Science Fiction and Fantasy perfect for some people.

 

It can be argued (as it is being done here) that some of those characters are sue like but that's what makes it good.

 

Some characters are far fetched but with Science Fiction and Fantasy, some degree of belief suspension is required.

 

Yes, a commoner/slave become a hero is NOT Sue, but if you cannot explain it well (in the setting)or add too much great stuff to the character, make it too unrealistic and unbeatable, or everyone like him/her for no reason that's a Sue.

 

Let the hero be able to do something others canoot. That's what is needed for the epic to continue, sure that could be a Sue trait but it does not make a character Sue unless it's overused.

 

As for SW, I agree that post RotJ Luke is a bit Sue, but the 4 Empire classes I've played is fine, they all suffered loss, got beaten by someone and could not save someone they want.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Slowpokeking

[Jinzouningen]

He had not completed his training yet, he truly became a knight in EP VI. Also most of his teams got shot down at that time.

 

Most of the characters were much better trained before this.

 

i'm sorry i thought the womp rat thing would give away my sarcasm. See thats my epic skill, super sarcasm if i hadnt come along when i did the universe, which hasnt been fooled by sarcasm in a millennia, wouldnt have just been fooled.

[CosmicKat]

So that's the answer, it depend on how good you make the story and build the character. But even Tolkien's characters fit quite a few "Sue" traits such as royal bloodline, the ability to resist the One Ring.

 

Then what's wrong with Luke in the movies, and why did people blame Bioware for make characters heroes?

 

Tolkien built real characters who do unreal, mythically heroic things.

 

Lucas made mythically heroic events and pasted generic characters into it. It worked in the original trilogy because he (or someone else) had the sense to make the generic characters likable ones. In the prequels, they are awful human beings doing hilariously ridiculous deeds.

[Jandi]

What's wrong with non force users kill Sith Lords? Jango/Boba Fett could make threat to many of the Council members.

 

And you are not some random smuggler at that time.

 

Not a Sith Lord. A member of the dark council. Jango got owned by Windu like a child who threw rocks at a bull. The outcome would be the same as Han shooting Vader.

 

I mean, sure, it might happen if you get the drop on them, but you don't. You stroll in, shake your fist angrily and start shooting after they have their weapon out. It's *STOOPID*

[JediKalel]

Yes they do, Satele in particular notices your darkness at the end of chapter 3 and basically kicks you out of the Jedi Order.

 

Really? Because my Sage is full darkside and was never kicked out of the Jedi Order for anything darkside I did.

[Guancyto]

Like I said with Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

 

Let's be fair here. Mass Effect is deliberately larger-than-life. and ME2 and the "Shepard is an insane bad@ss" thing is one of the few examples I've seen of a series actually acknowledging the protagonist's accomplishments.

 

Meanwhile you're heavily mischaracterizing Dragon Age. The guy who decides to follow you has huge issues concerning leadership, and you get to call him out on it repeatedly. You aren't the best Warden, it's just that you and Alistar are the only Wardens who happen to be available.

 

And that's because you were lucky enough to get rescued by a swamp witch (who, as it turns out, Is Plotting Something). Otherwise you'd be dead too. You aren't special, at least not to start out. You're just convenient.

 

Now you get to pull off some pretty crazy ****, but you have to work like crazy to earn it and it still almost doesn't work.

 

And then there's DA2, where you don't even matter at all...

Edited November 27, 2012 by Guancyto

[MorgonKara]

I disagree. The class stories are the best part of SWTOR and I like that they make the player the hero of the story.

[GenXCub]

I think we're only slightly touching on the needs of a MMO game.

 

It seems every WoW patch is to save the universe, and I think people treat it as a known quantity.

 

The WoW story also requires that you separate out that you have millions of "heroes" in the world, and it really just comes down to your group being the proxy for all heroes.

 

Barsen'thor makes sense. Now, I don't think anyone would argue that it makes further writing more difficult. It paints you into a bit of a corner. All of the class stories are happening at different times in the timeline, with only a couple crossing paths. Chapter 4-5-6 will need to be more about converging.

 

I agree with The Burning Crusade sentiments as far as story, but I still loved their end-game content. Please make the Emperor's citadel be Karazhan

[ptwonline]

I think that going over the top works better in games. Yes, you can create great and compelling stories about much more modest or limited goals, but that takes a lot more skill and is very hit-or-miss. Going over the top is a lot more reliable.

 

Besides--we're talking about a video game centered around a violent conflict between good and evil. Everyone wants to be the Big Damn Hero.

Edited November 27, 2012 by ptwonline

[Slowpokeking]

Not a Sith Lord. A member of the dark council. Jango got owned by Windu like a child who threw rocks at a bull. The outcome would be the same as Han shooting Vader.

 

I mean, sure, it might happen if you get the drop on them, but you don't. You stroll in, shake your fist angrily and start shooting after they have their weapon out. It's *STOOPID*

 

Coleman Trebor was a Jedi high council member and he got killed by Jango. And Boba Fett had a close fight with Vader.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Tolkien built real characters who do unreal, mythically heroic things.

 

Lucas made mythically heroic events and pasted generic characters into it. It worked in the original trilogy because he (or someone else) had the sense to make the generic characters likable ones. In the prequels, they are awful human beings doing hilariously ridiculous deeds.

 

What do you mean real? Luke was quite realistic, had good characterization in the OT, he just did unreal heroic things as well.

[DarthTHC]

What do you mean real? Luke was quite realistic, had good characterization in the OT, he just did unreal heroic things as well.

 

A wise but aged knight in shining armor takes a farmboy in whom he sees great potential as a squire. On their travels they encounter a swashbuckler and somehow wind up entangled with him.

 

The knight's mission is to save the princess from the evil wizard's tower, which they do.

 

The princess is so irked at the evil wizard that she subsequently sends the knight, his squire, and the swashbuckler back to the tower, to destroy it.

 

Which again, they do.

 

THE END

[Trenter]

(its sense not sence or since )

 

It's "it's", not its.

[Vandicus]

A wise but aged knight in shining armor takes a farmboy in whom he sees great potential as a squire. On their travels they encounter a swashbuckler and somehow wind up entangled with him.

 

The knight's mission is to save the princess from the evil wizard's tower, which they do.

 

The princess is so irked at the evil wizard that she subsequently sends the knight, his squire, and the swashbuckler back to the tower, to destroy it.

 

Which again, they do.

 

THE END

 

Well yes, if you remove plot, character development, interpersonal relationships, motives, and background from a story basically everything can be distilled into the hero's journey. Your point?

[DarthTHC]

Well yes, if you remove plot, character development, interpersonal relationships, motives, and background from a story basically everything can be distilled into the hero's journey. Your point?

 

Actually, it's all pretty unoriginal. The only cool thing Lucas did (with ep IV anyway) is to set it in space with glowbats.

 

The character development is uninspired. The motives are the same as every story. Background is derivative. The only mildly entertaining point of the whole thing was when we learned the kiss before swinging across the silly-deep chasm was between bro and sis, but that wasn't until another movie.

 

Don't get me wrong, it was a good movie. But boiled down, it really was the same old EVERYTHING except setting.

[Vandicus]

Actually, it's all pretty unoriginal. The only cool thing Lucas did (with ep IV anyway) is to set it in space with glowbats.

 

The character development is uninspired. The motives are the same as every story. Background is derivative. The only mildly entertaining point of the whole thing was when we learned the kiss before swinging across the silly-deep chasm was between bro and sis, but that wasn't until another movie.

 

Don't get me wrong, it was a good movie. But boiled down, it really was the same old EVERYTHING except setting.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

 

Your description is applicable to nearly every story if we're talking about originality.

[CosmicKat]

Well yes, if you remove plot, character development, interpersonal relationships, motives, and background from a story basically everything can be distilled into the hero's journey. Your point?

 

His point was that the original movie is a classic fairy tale. That's exactly why it was so good.

 

Plot, character development and interpersonal relationships are completely secondary and as such, the glaring holes in them are not noticable or detrimental to the tale.

[Slowpokeking]

A wise but aged knight in shining armor takes a farmboy in whom he sees great potential as a squire. On their travels they encounter a swashbuckler and somehow wind up entangled with him.

 

The knight's mission is to save the princess from the evil wizard's tower, which they do.

 

The princess is so irked at the evil wizard that she subsequently sends the knight, his squire, and the swashbuckler back to the tower, to destroy it.

 

Which again, they do.

 

THE END

 

So

 

A hobbit taken by a wise but aged wizard(Maia) to fight a war and save the world from some ancient evil. On their travels they encountered elves, dwarves and human heroes.He was in danger but finally finished the mission.

 

That's something new?

 

And that's not the end of OT.

[Slowpokeking]

His point was that the original movie is a classic fairy tale. That's exactly why it was so good.

 

Plot, character development and interpersonal relationships are completely secondary and as such, the glaring holes in them are not noticable or detrimental to the tale.

 

If it stopped there, you can call it classic fairy tale. But did it?

[Vandicus]

His point was that the original movie is a classic fairy tale. That's exactly why it was so good.

 

Plot, character development and interpersonal relationships are completely secondary and as such, the glaring holes in them are not noticable or detrimental to the tale.

 

Now I'm even more lost. When did classic fairy tails come into the equation?

[LegendaryBlade]

Not a Sith Lord. A member of the dark council. Jango got owned by Windu like a child who threw rocks at a bull. The outcome would be the same as Han shooting Vader.

 

I mean, sure, it might happen if you get the drop on them, but you don't. You stroll in, shake your fist angrily and start shooting after they have their weapon out. It's *STOOPID*

 

Bobba Fett beat Vader. Twice. Cad Bane held off two Jedi at the same time, and would of won if not for plot armor. HK-49 describes in detail how a regular person could defeat a jedi. Infact, he said non force sensitive people are, in many cases, the best people for the job if properly trained.

 

The lore is full of regular people beating Jedi, we just don't see it much because the force sensitive is often the main character or primary antagonist and Lucas is a bad writer.

[Slowpokeking]

Beowulf: A great hero and dragonslayer

 

Siegfried: A great hero and dragonslayer

 

Hercules: A great hero and hydraslayer

 

So they are also unoriginal?

[ptwonline]

Actually, it's all pretty unoriginal. The only cool thing Lucas did (with ep IV anyway) is to set it in space with glowbats.

 

The character development is uninspired. The motives are the same as every story. Background is derivative. The only mildly entertaining point of the whole thing was when we learned the kiss before swinging across the silly-deep chasm was between bro and sis, but that wasn't until another movie.

 

Don't get me wrong, it was a good movie. But boiled down, it really was the same old EVERYTHING except setting.

 

It doesn't need to be that original. You can have the most mundane and overused of plots (boy meets girl, boy and girl fall in love, boy loses girl, boy finds girl, happily ever after) but with good writing and good execution you can have a very successful story.

[Slowpokeking]

Even LotR's plot share some similarity with the ancient hero epics.

 

Such as The Witch King's fall is similar to Macbeth, Aragorn is similar to many great heroes like king Arthur.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Slowpokeking