Star Wars: The Old Republic – State of the Game, True Version

[Elear]

I did not claim to know the reason for every player's departure from ToR. But I've never personally met, online or in person, a player who left due to financial reasons, despite absolutely loving the game. While I'm sure they are out there, I'm also sure that BioWare isn't telling the whole story.

And I did, quite a few.

 

The charge against BioWare is not that they misinterpreted the unsub reasons, but that they are attempting to spin them.

Unless we're going to argue that 40% reporting subsription as reson for leaving is fabricated number, there is no 'spin' involved. There are only 60% people that left left, and I doubt they are as united as thoe 40% in their reasons for leaving. So BW is aiming at biggest group that left, nithing wrong with that.

 

Before you knock the comparison to WoW, I will point out that ToR shares a demographic with WoW

This is simply not true. You're saying that game plays similary, yes, maybe, but then every MMORPG does(and EVE is hardly RPG). Market is already saturated and main reason WoW holds subs is because people don't want to leave everything behind, or are so used to wow that they can't stand anything else(OMG no Arenas? OMG no dual spec? OMG no group finder? OMG no dps parser? OMG no pandas?)

Instead, SWTOR is aimed both at general MMO public(shared with all other MMORPG), but also at SW fans, often ones without any prior contact with MMO games.

 

"Our game is awesome. People love it and want to play it."

 

Their game is not so awesome that everyone who left really, truly wishes they could still play, if only they had the money. That's the message they are attempting to spin.

 

I mean, do you really buy this reason, when 10 million players are willing to pay for WoW? Yes, obviously, the reason players don't play ToR is just that millions of players "can't afford" their game, despite "loving" it. Even though millions of players can afford WoW, not even 1 million players can afford ToR? Don't be naive.

 

Again(yeah, had to switch places here), this game has different demographic than WoW. Yes, lots of people that left might have been MMO veterans(after all, 60% of leavers gave reason other than subscruption), but there really was incredible amount of people at launch that never played MMO before. People that can play few nights per month, or for a week every few months. People that came to see story that Bioware cooked up. So constantly paying for somethign they almost don't play is not something they want to do. And before you go there, no, not everywhere 15$ is less than pack of toilet paper, there are people that can get more entertainment value from that than 2 nights of playing.

 

Now, I don't expect ToR to ever hit the same numbers as WoW (no MMO will, not until WoW shuts down it's servers, anyway.)

 

Umh, apparently, yes, you do expect SWTOR to take away all subscribers from WoW before it can be considered good game. "WoW has 10m and SWTOR barely 1m, it must mean SWTOR is worse"

1m subscribers at launch would have been still great figure, but because for short while this number was much greater, suddenly 1m is sign of failure?

[Rylorn]

Sure, you can split 1 update into 10 to keep releasing new content "every 4-6 weeks", but this doesn't mean you are faster, it means you are still slow, but you are also desperate.

 

Couldn't agree more. The problem isn't how often the updates arrive, it's the overall rate at which improvements are added to the game. The 6 week schedule isn't even close to being met with a reasonable amount of content that doesn't include a crazy amount of defects.

 

The original vision for this game, was AAA game, premium price.

Now the vision is B game, but much cheaper.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Rylorn

[simplius]

I think one of the main problems here imo is the complete lack of any in-game socialization features. Seriously, what can you do other than class story (solo), pvp (no time to socialize), dailies (solo), a daily FP (interaction between players usually is the: hi, hi, hi, bye, bye, bye), and 2-3 ops a week with the guild? There is no fun factor in the game besides what you make of it, like guild events here and there. No real support for RP, no timekiller activities where you can chill a bit (like mini-games), nothing. Seriously, there is no encouragement to actually talk to people besides your guild and friends. Adding new content of the same kind (new planet, ops, fp, WZ, daily, and nothing else) all time won't fix this ever. There have been so many great suggestions over the past year, from which 0 made into the game.

 

the tools for that are there,,,what is needed is the will to use them

 

and this is one of the things , that helped wow grow,,the community

 

back in BC the big guilds would often make spontaneous happenings,,bear dances, cat raids or whatever

 

when 10 or 20 people start doing something fun and crazy,,others will join in

 

all that changed, when the focus went from fun to competetive play

 

so now they mostly think about gear and stats and subject themselves to the endgame hamster wheel

 

for the best epics

[limenutpen]

Anyways MacHeath you make some valid points which I agree, but you loose credibility when comparing the nos of this game to those of WoW.

 

- WoW has been around since fall 2005, that is not 12 years in my maths

- WoW has 10 million subs 60%+ of which are Asiatic and are subbed with cheap time codes valid forever

 

Anyways each developer will make a marketing spin to to his blogs or comments, what is said in closed doors at BW and what they think we will never know it. I am still surprised how some intelligent people here cannot catch those.

 

No Dev or som-1 involved in any game will come so upfront about there mistakes, and tell you a game is bad they are the ones making it.

[Fornix]

If it was awesome, the sub numbers wouldn't go down so fast.

 

That has little to do with SWTOR in particular, sub figures are dropping all over the board. Prior to MoP WoW lost approx 2 million subs between financial calls. MoP brought that up again, however when judging current game time statistics on e.g. Xfire and Raptr there's a rapid downwards decline in played WoW time. It won't come as much of a surprise to see their figures undergo a rapid decline again as well.

 

Other MMO's, same story. Declines, or failing to pick up all together (e.g. The Secret World as of recent).

 

The only 2 MMO's which are actually on an upward slope are:

- EVE Online (vastly different playerbase than the traditional MMO)

- Runescape (vastly different monthly subscription cost to it)

 

 

No, it's not the $15/month itself that is the problem.

It's the fact that you didn't deliver enough to be worth $15/month.

 

That explains as to why I've seen so many players around me dropping their subscription based games over the past years, with notice not to be touching them again. Fact of the matter is, as loud as some advocates for P2P here desire to keep on crying the importance of P2P, it's a dying financial model.

 

Players are no longer interested in being stuck into paying for something where they feel they lose control over it or are inheritly limited.

 

They'd much rather be able to play game A,B,C,D and E and split their spendable game money on those multiple titles where they see fit, than seeing it all forcedly going into a single title. And for numerous players, that spendable money may even be $0 beyond the box purchase.

 

 

Still is.

Wasn't the new wz only missing the ending animation?

What about Makeb?

And the level cap increase, that you said was supposed to come "this year"?

New armor models? No, not recoloring. Like you know, completely new, something that takes more than a coloring book and 20 minutes.

 

Sure, you can split 1 update into 10 to keep releasing new content "every 4-6 weeks", but this doesn't mean you are faster, it means you are still slow, but you are also desperate.

Also, stop adding new daily areas all the time. Last thing this game needs is more dailies.

 

The majority of MMO's released new content approximately every 3-4 months, or even with longer periods in between. Recently a few select number of MMO's started releasing more rapid, however even then approximately 2 months is still rapid. Let stand the 6 weeks.

 

Personally speaking, what is much more noticeable isn't the rate of incoming updates considering it is rather high, but rather the sense of entitlement and greed amongst the current SWTOR communities frequenting forums. EA/BioWare may release a new operation, within 4 weeks have the next patch up and ready on the PTS for deployment soon, yet the necessity to cry as if there's no tomorrow remains.

 

And then those same people wonder as to why BioWare doesn't tend to communicate with that "I want it, and I want it now!!! >.<" mentality.

[POPsi]

the tools for that are there,,,what is needed is the will to use them

 

and this is one of the things , that helped wow grow,,the community

 

back in BC the big guilds would often make spontaneous happenings,,bear dances, cat raids or whatever

 

when 10 or 20 people start doing something fun and crazy,,others will join in

 

all that changed, when the focus went from fun to competetive play

 

so now they mostly think about gear and stats and subject themselves to the endgame hamster wheel

 

for the best epics

 

to some extent, yes, there are basic tools (we have general chat, and some emotes, what else), but not as much as we should have. But what can you actually do when you can level through a planet without meeting anyone? Yes, fleets are populated now, but there is again nothing to do there. Don't think there is much crazy you can pull off on the fleet unfortunately, at least I haven't seen such thing yet.

[Surakis]

Even if its a personal hardware issue, its still a fault of the game.

 

Haters gonna hate....

[Xenirath]

" 'State of the Game: My Version which is full of opinions and no facts."

 

I fixed it for you. Game is fine, don't like it quit.

[Eszi]

" 'State of the Game: My Version which is full of opinions and no facts."

 

I fixed it for you. Game is fine, don't like it quit.

 

Feels like february.

IT ALL WENT SO WELL SINCE

[DarthWoad]

I completely agree OP. Its a shame people cant seem to face the facts about this game

[Thaed]

Believe me the truth of your statement and the irony of it will never be fully grasped by the people that it refers to. For the rest of us however it's comical and sad at the same time.

 

These people that hate a product but continue to pay for it are a logical enigma.

 

I think it's more along the lines of Bioware saying that their game is 'awesome' when it quite clearly is not.

 

I still enjoy it for the story aspects, but literally everything else is lacking when compared to other games. Some of which don't have a sub.

[DarthWoad]

" 'State of the Game: My Version which is full of opinions and no facts."

 

I fixed it for you. Game is fine, don't like it quit.

 

"Dont like it, dont play it" - typical defender answer

[GrandMike]

"1. Our game is awesome. People love it and want to play it. "

 

Its a denial phase.

 

Oh, and he was in charge of WHO. 'nough said.

 

Can they bring in someone that was...actually successful at their job to run SWTOR?

Edited November 7, 2012 by GrandMike

[Xenirath]

Feels like february.

IT ALL WENT SO WELL SINCE

 

I feel the game is better now than in February. Less players maybe, but a better game. Game lost subs, but that doesn't mean the game has dropped in quality. Many games MMOs especially are Over-Hyped, this leads to Inflated initial populations and increases box sales.

 

Once people buy the game play for a few months and relise they had unrealistic expectations they leave for the next over-hyped MMO. Gw2 ring any bells? These people are the same people that like you say "Game sucks fix it now" then leave as soon as a new Shiny comes along.

 

All in all game has had enjoyable additions and I am still enjoying the game as are many others that choose to subscribe. If you want Bioware to listen and you feel they are in need of money Unsub until they make YOUR MMO. Though as far as investor reports suggest they won't miss 15 dollars.

[Fornix]

"Dont like it, dont play it" - typical defender answer

 

Not quite the same. As people who dislike the game may still pose their critique, however there's a difference between critique versus simple ranting and slandering.

 

And stating that subs are going down, whilst this is a thing shared by practically all MMO's; stating that the 15$ a problem wouldn't be the problem without using any form of evidence to back that up but rather lying on subjective, sentimental values; and furthermore stating that the rate of updates which has so far been approximately 10 weeks in between and thus still considerably faster than roughly 90% of previous MMO's on the market, is slow... is ludicrous insanity speaking.

 

So I'd propose to rephrase your statement to "Have nothing of at least minimal value to say, don't post".

[Xenirath]

"Dont like it, dont play it" - typical defender answer

 

Why pay for a game you don't like? If the statement makes sense why say anything else?

 

I don't need to "defend" the game, they are making plenty of profits according to investor reports. But no one who claims the "game is dying" is smart enough to read those.

[Draksen]

SWTOR isnt bleeding players anymore. At all.

In fact it is gaining players, or at least is pretty stable.

(source: activity ingame during the last 3 or 4 weeks, on two different servers and activity on xfire, used as a trend, not for actual numbers. Thus being a good indication)

[Draksen]

"Dont like it, dont play it" - typical defender answer

Mr DarthWoad, you're a subscriber. You pay for the game.

And you dont like it?

So either you entered your credit card number by accident on the site, or you're a liar and you secretly love the game.

In both case, you're extremely funny. Some may say sad, I prefer seeing you as someone who's funny.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Draksen

[DarthWoad]

Not quite the same. As people who dislike the game may still pose their critique, however there's a difference between critique versus simple ranting and slandering.

 

And stating that subs are going down, whilst this is a thing shared by practically all MMO's; stating that the 15$ a problem wouldn't be the problem without using any form of evidence to back that up but rather lying on subjective, sentimental values; and furthermore stating that the rate of updates which has so far been approximately 10 weeks in between and thus still considerably faster than roughly 90% of previous MMO's on the market, is slow... is ludicrous insanity speaking.

 

So I'd propose to rephrase your statement to "Have nothing of at least minimal value to say, don't post".

 

Theres a difference between not liking the game, and being disappointed with the game. And yeah, subs are going down, this game pretty much lost more than half its subs in just a few months of release, thats something to talk about..

 

Some people were put off with the $15 subscription, purely because this game isnt worth a $15 subscription, hence why this game is making a F2P option...

 

And they promised us every 6 weeks..they broke that promise. I'm not bothered about the rate of updates, im bothered that they lied to us

[DarthWoad]

Mr DarthWoad, you're a subscriber. You pay for the game.

And you dont like it?

So either you entered your credit card number by accident on the site, or you're a liar and you secretly love the game.

In both case, you're extremely funny. Some may say sad, I prefer seeing you as someone who's funny.

 

Please quote me in this thread where I said I dont like the game.... see you defenders would do anything for this game lol. i'm disappointed with the game, but you cant tell me what to do, i have a small hope this game will improve

[JMCH]

Yes to everything except the frame rate. That guy's computer just blows or he doesn't know how to take care of it. (You can have a great computer but if you treat it like crap don't expect it to run flawlessly)

Go to 3-4 planets, play 3 chars, do warzones, return to the fleet, all that without restarting the client... that's EXACTLY what you'll see, whatever graphics settings you use.

 

The sole existence of SWTOR Unleashed proves there are issues with optimisations which in fact degrade performance, and this one doesn't correct all the memory allocation issues we face.

[Heimskringla]

Hickman needs to deal with reality. The sub fee wasn't what kept me away from TOR for ~9 months. It wasn't even other games. It wasn't really even the lack of end game content, although that was a big part of why I clicked the unsub button. What kept me away from TOR was a lack of clearly articulated vision for the game and the inability of senior people at Bioware to acknowledge that there were serious flaws with the game.

 

The game wasn't worth $14.99 a month at launch, and it still isn't. Development moves at a pace that can most charitably be described as glacial, there's still no real sense that anyone at Bioware has any idea where the game needs to go to succeed, and developer response to community concerns is anemic at the best of times. "State of the Game" posts have been par for the course for many MMOs for years. LOTRO, DDO, STO, TSW, and SWG all have (or had in SWG's case) them.

 

Show us where end game is going. Pay attention to the subcommunities that participate in the end game content. Commit to communicating better and actually doing something about the myriad of issues plaguing the game. Acknowledge that PvP has essentially become Stun v. Stun. Commit to creating raids that implement novel mechanics and actually challenge players.

 

Be open about your plans for story content. I don't play this game for its novel approach to mechanics, but I do play it for the individualized class stories. I can get broad, well VO'd, well animated stories from TSW, in addition to some novel tweaks to standard MMO mechanics. The only thing I can't get is the individualized story. If you're no longer able to do class stories, be honest. If you can't afford to update companion stories, be honest. If what we'll have to look forward to is shared planetary arcs, be honest.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Heimskringla

[Eszi]

I feel the game is better now than in February. Less players maybe, but a better game. Game lost subs, but that doesn't mean the game has dropped in quality. Many games MMOs especially are Over-Hyped, this leads to Inflated initial populations and increases box sales.

 

Once people buy the game play for a few months and relise they had unrealistic expectations they leave for the next over-hyped MMO. Gw2 ring any bells? These people are the same people that like you say "Game sucks fix it now" then leave as soon as a new Shiny comes along.

 

All in all game has had enjoyable additions and I am still enjoying the game as are many others that choose to subscribe. If you want Bioware to listen and you feel they are in need of money Unsub until they make YOUR MMO. Though as far as investor reports suggest they won't miss 15 dollars.

In february, some people were speculating about this game going f2p because it was bad.

Many others told them "don't like it, go unsub, this game will never go f2p"

Guess what happened.

 

Was it overhyped? Perhaps.

But oh well, you say "over-hyped", I counter with

Do you happen to also remember the "1.2 Ranked Warzones Incident"? You know, when BW hyped rwzs being in 1.2 and about 4 hours before 1.2 went live, they trolled all these people by saying "NOPE". Of course, since you can't view the website during maintnance, most of the people logged in after the patch expecting ranked to be there.

 

I do not say "game sux fix it nau", I submit feedback. The same feedback that is being submitted by other people for the past 6 months in different words, while people keep unsubbing for the same reasons.

I do NOT expect BioWare to make "my mmo", I expect them to make a good game. Sure, everybody has a different definition of that, but seeing that tor dropped from ~1.5 mil subs (can't remember exact number) to ~500k should tell you something.

[Thaed]

Why pay for a game you don't like? If the statement makes sense why say anything else?

 

I don't need to "defend" the game, they are making plenty of profits according to investor reports. But no one who claims the "game is dying" is smart enough to read those.

 

There's a difference between saying a game isn't awesome and not liking a game. I still like this game, but it certainly isn't awesome and Bioware's statement saying such is, well, wrong.

 

I think most people can agree that $15 a month isn't a huge block in playing a video game. If they can afford the computer to run it and can afford to pay for the internet, they can afford 50c per day. When Bioware say "people like it! they want to play it! they just don't want to pay $15!", think about what they're really saying about their game.

 

They're saying that it's not worth $15 per month. If people want something enough, they'll pay for it. The problem doesn't lie in that. What Bioware has failed to do is provide a product that a) stands up to competition and b) makes people want to skip a coffee per week.

 

Again, I like the game, I do. But I can see that it has a myriad of problems. They only thing SW:TOR does that another MMO doesn't do better is story. Yes, opinion, but I challenge you to put forward an honest opinion (really be honest with yourself) as to how SW:TOR provides a better visual environment than GW2. Or how SW:TOR does PvP better than WoW. Really think hard on it.

 

As to the game is dying, it is, depending on one's concept of 'dying'. I've been here since launched, I've watched the servers decline. I was here for the optional merge, when I saw a breath of fresh life breathed back into the universe. I took a break for a while and have come back to even less servers without nearly as many people online. The game is, at the very least, declining. There's no arguing that.

[Xenirath]

Theres a difference between not liking the game, and being disappointed with the game. And yeah, subs are going down, this game pretty much lost more than half its subs in just a few months of release, thats something to talk about..

 

Some people were put off with the $15 subscription, purely because this game isnt worth a $15 subscription, hence why this game is making a F2P option...

 

And they promised us every 6 weeks..they broke that promise. I'm not bothered about the rate of updates, im bothered that they lied to us

 

The only difference is that disappointed is a "Temporary" disliking of the game. If they catered to what you feel the game should be you would like it but atm you don't hence the "disappointed." If you are "disappointed" go f2p/stop playing until you are no longer "disappointed"

 

They never said "Every 6 weeks definitely" they said "we aim to release content on a 6 week timeline" that leaves room for fixing major bugs that would make the game unplayable if launched to live. Would you like the current PTS Build on live right now with all the bugs in it? I know I would rather be patient and get a less buggy version.

 

And as for the "game not being worth 15$" I find this laughable. A damn hamburger at McDonalds is 5 dollars if you get the fries and a coke with it. Hell a nice meal is 15+ at a decent resturaunt. If 15$ is a lot a money to people maybe they shouldn't have internet access or cable tv...