For the last time, I swear to God, how to Fix Vigilance/Vengeance!

[Marqhill]

Alright, So I posted something like this before and I had some ideas and it turns out no one liked them. Which is fine, that's what forums are for are they not? There were a few things that I learned from that last post keeping in mind that everything that I'm saying is in reference to PvP. I don't really PvE much and I've been lead to believe that in terms of PvE Vigilance/Vengeance is considered to be acceptable as it stands.

 

1) keep it simple.

 

Having played a couple other DPS classes Vengeance does actually have what I think is currently one of the most complex DPS rotations currently. It seems like a reasonable thing to add extra damage potential to a DPS class by adding extra abilities to proc but then that's just taking an already complicated rotation and muddying it up even more. At which point even if you are increasing the damage output what would be the motivation of playing this skill tree if you can get the same damage easier on another one?!

 

2) Don't change the play style.

 

People who stick with playing vigilance/vengeance in 1.4 have stuck with it because they really like the play style and if you change that then you're really turning those people off because you're taking something they like and making it different. Again, the point isn't to change Vigilance/Vengeance but to make it better. Point taken.

 

3) Kiting

 

I've been playing Focus/Rage on my Guardian for about the past month and while I'm still more prone to get CC'ed and a little squishier than I used to be I definitely feel like it's easier to kite a Vigilance/Vengeance player. When I feel like someone is kiting me in Focus/Rage I just hit them with Force Exhaustion/Force Crush and that brings them right back to me. Granted all 3 skill trees have Freezing Force/Chilling Scream but it's cheaper to use when you're using Rage/Focus and you've got a 10 meter range snare. So this is also something that needs to be taken into consideration.

 

So with these things I learned having been taken into consideration I propose 3 simple changes that would fix the Vigilance/Vengeance skill tree and make it a lot more competitive in PvP.

 

1. Pooled Hatred/Gather Strength - Put it back! I don't necessarily want it buffed. I could see how under the right circumstances this ability could be incredibly powerful. But for the love of God why did they nerf it?! Just put it back the way it was and that would make a lot of people happy. This also goes along with my don't change the play style philosophy.

 

2. Remove Narrowed Focus/Deadly Reprisal and introduce a 1 point ability that gives a 15% in combat speed boost. Which is pretty much just like the middle skill tree for some other DPS classes. Except for sentinels/marauders I'm pretty sure it's 2 points and not 1. This seemed to be the most asked for change by everyone who responded to my original post. I agree. This change falls right in line with both "Keep it simple" and "Kiting" and it doesn't change the play style either. It just makes it easier for you to keep up with your target.

 

3. This is the biggest change. It's actually a buff really but I think that ti's appropriate. I've come up with 2 very similar ideas and I'll let you guys decide which works best.

 

3a) Make it so that Force Rush/Savagery applies it's buff to Master Strike/Ravage.

 

I think this is perfectly reasonable. Considering that something as simple as force leap/charge gives Force Sweep/Smash a 100% critical hit chance and with that being an AoE and all I see no reason for Master Strike/Ravage to not be able to get a 90 - 95% critical hit chance by getting a Force Rush proc. However, if you think that's too powerful then...

 

3b) When you proc Zen Strike/Rampage then Force Rush/Savagery will apply its buff to Master Strike/Ravage.

 

It's essentially the same thing but it makes it slightly less common. Some people would cry OP at my proposed final change but I don't. When you have Focus Guardians who can hit in an AoE for 7-8k (I'm not exaggerating, I've done it. Literally earlier today) and Vanguards who just plain ignore your armor (Either through elemental damage or HIB flat out ignoring 90% of your armor) I don't think this last change is really that big of a deal. Tell me what you guys think?

[wadecounty]

How about instead of adding Force Rush to Master Strike, we change/add a talent in the Vigilance tree to get 60% armor penetration on Master Strike? Kind of like how Vanguards get 60% armor pen on High Impact Bolt from their middle tree? Edited November 2, 2012 by wadecounty

[Darth_Rathus]

Single Saber Mastery - Shien Form: Increases all melee damage dealt by 5/10/15 %.

 

Vengeance fixed.

[CBRGhostRider]

We need:

 

1. 5/10/15% increased movement speed talent

2. 30% AoE damage reduction talent

3. 1/2 secs off interrupt cd, and 15/30 seconds off cc breaker

 

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4. DoTs that actually hurt would be nice too.

5. More armor pen for a tree that does so much white damage.

 

1, 2, 3 are absolute must haves I think, and simply bring us up to par with other classes middle trees.

Edited November 2, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[AllanGand]

honestly, I for one would like a 30% crit damage to some of our core skills. Every DPS tree out there gets a 30% critical damage bonus to some of their skills except for the agent shared tree (which gets critical chance bonuses instead) the vengeance juggernaut tree, and the marauder annihilation tree (which gets a 15% damage increase to bleeds).

 

Vengeance jugs get absolutely nothing of the sort!

Edited November 3, 2012 by AllanGand

[vimm]

Single Saber Mastery - Shien Form: Increases all melee damage dealt by 5/10/15 %.

 

Vengeance fixed.

 

Lol, you're simple.

[Dire]

I am a full time full warhero rank 90.

 

Vengence does not need a buff in my opinion.

 

Thanks - just thought I'd dial in here.

[Elyx]

I am a full time full warhero rank 90.

 

Vengence does not need a buff in my opinion.

 

Thanks - just thought I'd dial in here.

 

I agree. Vengeance is fine. there is no need to make it a PvP viable spec when we already have two that people use (and rage just got a great boost to PvP viability)

 

While I certainly respect peoples feelings about their love of Venge/Vigil, there really is no class in the game that has 3 PvP ready trees. they are all like us....one specialized tree (healing or tanking) that is general, and one that is really better with PvP, and one that is either PvE related or a mix. Vengeance certainly works for PvE....it's not like it broke when 1.4 came out. Rage just got better.

 

Vengeance doesn't need huge buffs. Which is why I support a slight bleed increase, or a slight damage boost overall Via SSM, but we don't need a huge amount else. Changing it for PvP simply isn't needed. again, not to slight those who enjoy venge/vigil and want to PvP. but it was doable before 1.4, and it's doable now. It's not the best, but then again, if your priority is PvP, then perhaps you need to use the most PvP viable spec we have. we should be happy! pre-1.4, rage was really meh. At least we HAVE a viable PvP spec now.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Elyx

[wadecounty]

 

While I certainly respect peoples feelings about their love of Venge/Vigil, there really is no class in the game that has 3 PvP ready trees.

 

Marauder says hi.

 

Anyways, 9 times out of 10 all that needs to make a tree more viable for PvP is improve its utility, and this will generally have little to no effect on PvE as bosses can't be stunned/slowed/pulled/pushed/mezzed etc.

 

If Rage is the burst DPS tree, Vengeance just needs a tad more utility (improve Enraged Defense as a defensive cooldown, lower cooldown on Force Push, something) to separate it from Rage in PvP. Unstoppable is close, although that works out better for hybrid tanks than DPS.

[errant_knight]

I don't really understand how it's broken. Maybe that's because I don't pvp, but it seems fine to me. I get about the same damage as my sniper with a whole lot less squishy.