Andryah Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Umm, actually I am being objective and not basing my opinions on data provided by the parties in question. It's simple. A game inflating their numbers to look more popular than they are is good for business, therefore the numbers must be taken with several grains of salt. Two words: Sarbanes Oxley. Major reform legislation enacted in 2002 (post Enron, and Worldcom) making it criminal for any corporation to present any data that could mislead (no matter how minor) on the financial health and welfare of a company to it's shareholders. Not just bluster... but actual prison time for corporate executives, who have to sign off on all public disclosures to shareholders of any kind. If you worked inside the financial arm of a corporation since SOX went live, you would know this and know that it scares the hell out of corporate executives as it exposes them to real prison time an huge fines if they are in any way found guilty of information manipulaiton (even if not deliberate or premeditated). But hey, don't take my word for it.... http://www.soxlaw.com/introduction.htm Edited October 30, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplius Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Yay! Those three are the best MMO choices on the market, besides EvE. Same here. altough I´m a little hyped up by Archeage, Star Citizen and World of Darkness, but that will take many months until I can try any of these out it would seem that the the rest of the world doesnt agree with u but since we are here: STO is better , than all of those, and it wiil stay for many years , afther the other ones a dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tkerzis Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 NOOOOO but SWG was the greatest game evar!!! TOR needs to be turned into SWG2 NAO!!!! /sarcasm off SWG lasted 8 years as a sub game though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOPSFounder Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 SWG lasted 8 years as a sub game though. This game will last less than a year on subscriptions. Very, very sad indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim-ONeil Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Two words: Sarbanes Oxley. Major reform legislation enacted in 2002 (post Enron, and Worldcom) making it criminal for any corporation to present any data that could mislead (no matter how minor) on the financial health and welfare of a company to it's shareholders. Not just bluster... but actual prison time for corporate executives, who have to sign off on all public disclosures to shareholders of any kind. If you worked inside the financial arm of a corporation since SOX went live, you would know this and know that it scares the hell out of corporate executives as it exposes them to real prison time an huge fines if they are in any way found guilty of information manipulaiton (even if not deliberate or premeditated). But hey, don't take my word for it.... http://www.soxlaw.com/introduction.htm Exactly, in the corporate world with whistleblower protection this is even scarier. Layoff or fire the wrong person and this is exactly how they will repay you if they have knowledge of something that can apply to this law. That's why it's a big deal, there are actual consequences and they are just waiting to make an extreme example out of someone. It's not worth risking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Well, in all fairness companies are dishonest despite the law. There are plenty of examples of this recently. However I do tend to think that, in the case of Producers it is counterproductive for them to inflate their numbers or to indicate they lost subs for dishonest reasons. One of the reasons I don't agree with standard attrition. Because some of the companies themselves reported it was for other reasons. IMO they would have gladly indicated it was normal attrition if they could have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) I agree that LoTRO has been hit hard by the flurry of new games this last year. It remains to be seen if veterans return to it in large numbers or not. It has the virtue of being a lore that many people still love and want to experience. I still play it as well as play SWTOR and TSW. Awwe...I'm disappointed Andryah. With as passionately as you have defend this game, I totally assumed you were a 1 MMO type of person. Knowing you actively play 3, while professing to know so much about this game, discredits much of your view on SWTOR for me. Where I once thought maybe you just had a different perspective on things, I now just see a "nomadic" outsider who dabbles in a few games, not fully investing in any one. I'm just shocked at that revelation. I really enjoyed debating with you because I felt you were passionate and thought you knew what you were talking about Edited October 30, 2012 by TUXs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Awwe...I'm disappointed Andryah. With as passionately as you have defend this game, I totally assumed you were a 1 MMO type of person. Knowing you actively play 3, while professing to know so much about this game, discredits much of your view on SWTOR for me. Where I once thought maybe you just had a different perspective on things, I now just see a "nomadic" outsider who dabbles in a few games, not fully investing in any one. That does clear up much though. In andryahs defense, however, being a fan of LotRO helps to give some perspective on what could be argued is a successful F2P model. I personally think LotRO's F2P is an good example of one that generates interest in a game and is done well enough to generate growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Two words: Sarbanes Oxley. Major reform legislation enacted in 2002 (post Enron, and Worldcom) making it criminal for any corporation to present any data that could mislead (no matter how minor) on the financial health and welfare of a company to it's shareholders. Not just bluster... but actual prison time for corporate executives, who have to sign off on all public disclosures to shareholders of any kind. If you worked inside the financial arm of a corporation since SOX went live, you would know this and know that it scares the hell out of corporate executives as it exposes them to real prison time an huge fines if they are in any way found guilty of information manipulaiton (even if not deliberate or premeditated). But hey, don't take my word for it.... http://www.soxlaw.com/introduction.htm You seem have this habit of posting things you don't seem to understand and presenting them as "proof" of things they are not. Companies do many things with the specifics of "game accounts" without it being illegal in any way, yet that number need not be remotely close to "actively subscribed accounts". Edited October 30, 2012 by Goretzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 In andryahs defense, however, being a fan of LotRO helps to give some perspective on what could be argued is a successful F2P model. I personally think LotRO's F2P is an good example of one that generates interest in a game and is done well enough to generate growth. I played lotro up until beta for this game. While there were certainly some positives to their model (many actually), there were also some very big things I completely disagreed with - and they all seem to have started with the last F2P expansion where they began going P2W. Truthfully, the best thing to happen to lotro was probably SWTOR. SWTOR showed just how well Turbine had done with things like 'companions', 'scalable instances' and the entire UI. I knew many people who came here...and quickly left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim-ONeil Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Awwe...I'm disappointed Andryah. With as passionately as you have defend this game, I totally assumed you were a 1 MMO type of person. Knowing you actively play 3, while professing to know so much about this game, discredits much of your view on SWTOR for me. Where I once thought maybe you just had a different perspective on things, I now just see a "nomadic" outsider who dabbles in a few games, not fully investing in any one. I'm just shocked at that revelation. I really enjoyed debating with you because I felt you were passionate and thought you knew what you were talking about Stop for a second, does this make any sense TUXs? She still pays to be here, regardless of what else is on the PC. Is this the only game you play at all? I would be totally embarrassed to show you the last one month of my time tracked on Xfire for SWTOR. I've also played Civ V for a good chunk of time this month, NHL 2013 on the 360, as well as F-1 2012 on my racing sim: http://imageshack.us/a/img818/8863/imag0070qw.jpg I guess I'm not dedicated enough to have your respect However I'm able to do all of this because I work from home and do a 4 x10 schedule giving me 3 days in a row off every week. It's amazing work if you can get it. Edited October 30, 2012 by Tim-ONeil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 You seem have this habit of posting things you don't seem to understand and presenting them as "proof" of things they are not. Companies do many things with the specifics of "game accounts" without it being illegal in any way, yet that number need not be remotely close to "actively subscribed accounts". Exactly. Case in point: All companies must now accurately disclose all assets, including inventories on things that cost more to inventory than they are worth. To bypass these rules is complicated and requires a cardboard box, a Sharpie and the writing of "Do not count" on the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Stop for a second, does this make any sense TUXs? She still pays to be here, regardless of what else is on the PC. Is this the only game you play at all? I would be totally embarrassed to show you the last one month of my time tracked on Xfire for SWTOR. I've also played Civ V for a good chunk of time this month, NHL 2013 on the 360, as well as F-1 2012 on my racing sim: http://imageshack.us/a/img818/8863/imag0070qw.jpg I guess I'm not dedicated enough to have your respect This is the ONLY game I play - aside from Word Shaker on my phone - my 'play time' is limited. It's not about "respect" Tim, I have plenty for both you and Andryah. It's that it clearly changes my perspective on your opinions on things about THIS game. I'm here. I focus on this game. I want THIS game to succeed, so I will never try to be offensive towards players like I've seen others do. When I stand behind a players issue, it's because I can relate to what they are seeing and experiencing, either because I've seen it myself, or because I know others experiencing the same. I do my best to keep my guild healthy, active and alive server to server to server, through the various policy changes and name wipes, with the massive nerf to PvP, the ridiculously restrictive lockout timer on Ops...these are all things that have greatly impacted me, or the people I play with. When I get frustrated with this game, I don't log off and head to another, I look for a solution here. I don't lose any respect for either of you - but your opinions, which tend to be confrontational to the masses, all mean less to me because of this revelation. I simply assumed that, given the passion you tend to post with, obviously you were a dedicated player, I didn't realize you were so casual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roechacca Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I play multiple MMO's. I keep a sub here only because I love the game, not because it's the best game. I hope "one day" Bioware will make it the Best Game. Or Walt Disney... hell I don't care at this point who does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaximusRex Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 There is nothing scientific about this thread, it's just statistics and whilst they can be used to help see the wood for the trees, they are not in and of themselves "scientific", any more than sticking a drink in a Erlenmeyer Flask embues it with "science". Um, Statistics is considered a scientific field of study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roechacca Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Um, Statistics is considered a scientific field of study. ya but it's like scientology being a field of science to study. We all chuckle from the cheap seats..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Awwe...I'm disappointed Andryah. With as passionately as you have defend this game, I totally assumed you were a 1 MMO type of person. Knowing you actively play 3, while professing to know so much about this game, discredits much of your view on SWTOR for me. Where I once thought maybe you just had a different perspective on things, I now just see a "nomadic" outsider who dabbles in a few games, not fully investing in any one. I'm just shocked at that revelation. I really enjoyed debating with you because I felt you were passionate and thought you knew what you were talking about Some people can walk and chew gum at the same time. And your disappointment is self-inflicted IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I played lotro up until beta for this game. While there were certainly some positives to their model (many actually), there were also some very big things I completely disagreed with - and they all seem to have started with the last F2P expansion where they began going P2W. Truthfully, the best thing to happen to lotro was probably SWTOR. SWTOR showed just how well Turbine had done with things like 'companions', 'scalable instances' and the entire UI. I knew many people who came here...and quickly left. Fair enough, but my point was that Andryah could have some insight into the F2P model because of being an active LotRO player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) You seem have this habit of posting things you don't seem to understand and presenting them as "proof" of things they are not. Now that, Goretzu, is more irony then I ever gave you credit for. Seriously, the days of phony inventory boxing and mis-labeling of data is gone in corporate america. The weenies who have to sign-off on the documents are too chicken to do simple things like this anymore because the penalties are so stiff and punative. Further, after Anderson went under for looking the other way as Enron's auditor.... the independent auditing firms are real pain the backside to the corporations these days and spend lots of time poking in places where they never did before.... BECAUSE they too must sign off on the companies financials and risk prison, massive fines, and confiscation of assets if they are caught asleep at the switch. Do companies still work hard to put the best light on their financials? Yes.. they do. I know, because I consult for a number of prominant ones in the tech sector specificly on SOX compliance and corporate best practices (its a booming consulting business these days). But I can tell you for a fact that they steer wide and clear from the kinds of shenanigans you and CosmicKat are throwing around like chew toys in this thread. There is simply too much risk to the executives personally under SOX to take silly risks like you and CK are suggesting here. Edited October 30, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Um, Statistics is considered a scientific field of study. Well it's the mathmatics of collecting and interperation data IMO, but some might refer to it as a "science", however Chemistry is a "science", but that doesn't mean making a mess in the kitchen sink with random stuff you found in your cupboards is therefore "science" or "scientific". Although there are no real "statistics" in this thread (just a lot of dodgy data and adding up), the last SWTOR data point is too variable for most to even be tried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Now that, Goretzu, is more irony then I ever gave you credit for. Seriously, the days of phony inventory boxing and mis-labeling of data is gone in corporate america. The weenies who have to sign-off on the documents are too chicken to do simple things like this anymore because the penalties are so stiff and punative. Further, after Anderson went under for looking the other way as Enron's auditor.... the independent auditing firms are real pain the backside to the corporations these days and spend lots of time poking in places where they never did before.... BECAUSE they too must sign off on the companies financials and risk prison, massive fines, and confiscation of assets if they are caught asleep at the switch. Do companies still work hard to put the best light on their financials? Yes.. they do. I know, because I consult for a number of prominant ones in the tech sector specificly on SOX compliance and corporate best practices (its a booming consulting business these days). But I can tell you for a fact that they steer wide and clear from the kinds of shenanigans you and CosmicKat are throwing around like chew toys in this thread. There is simply too much risk to the executives personally under SOX to take silly risks like you and CK are suggesting here. If that's the case then you know fine well your use of that legislation is also misleading in this context. But you do show a fine example of how you can stick to the letter of the Law, whilst presenting a thoroughly misleading outlook to those that don't know better. I don't think anyone is saying companies think of a number and add it to their offical numbers, but then they don't have to do anything that daft in the first place, as you seem to suggest you already know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Well it's the mathmatics of collecting and interperation data IMO, but some might refer to it as a "science", however Chemistry is a "science", but that doesn't mean making a mess in the kitchen sink with random stuff you found in your cupboards is therefore "science" or "scientific". Entire industries are based on statistics as core to their business. Take for instance the insurance and risk management industry as just one example... where actuarial science is exactly what they call it. A statistical science accepted world wide. If you want to go all pissant over content in the thread that is one thing... but to claim that statistics is not science and is not a scientific embodiment of mathematics is just crazy. Edited October 30, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 If that's the case then you know fine well your use of that legislation is also misleading in this context. But you do show a fine example of how you can stick to the letter of the Law, whilst presenting a thoroughly misleading outlook to those that don't know better. I don't think anyone is saying companies think of a number and add it to their offical numbers, but then they don't have to do anything that daft in the first place, as you seem to suggest you already know. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Entire industries are based on statistics as core to their business. Take for instance the insurance and risk management industry as just one example... where actuarial science is exactly what they call it. A statistical science accepted world wide. If you want to go all pissant over content in the thread that is one thing... but to claim that statistics is not science and is not a scientific embodiments of mathematics is just crazy. Entire industries are based on homopathy and losing weight. Also statistical risk analysis didn't do much for the frankly insane invesement behaviour that resutled in the credit crunch. I rest my case. Statistics are certainly a scientific tool (again not that there really are any statisitics in this thread - just data points), but then so are bunsen burners - that doesn't make them "science" or somehow imbue any thread with a bunser burner in it with "science", nor does a bunser burner help you much if you decide to use it to bang nails into walls rather than for its designed purpose. LOL Indeed...... indeed. Edited October 30, 2012 by Goretzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Some people can walk and chew gum at the same time. And your disappointment is self-inflicted IMO. Apparently so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts