When did Healers become Hydras?

[j-cart]

The secret is not to kill us, but to remove us from combat by other means. What "by other means" is for your tanks figure out.

 

I have already said too much

[QuietGoneJinn]

To finish what is already a post already longer than I would have liked, it sounds to me that you are seeing fights in SWTOR like a 1v1 in TF2, either a win or a loss. In SWTOR, you play for the draw and hope for the win in a 1v1 (at least pertaining to healers). As a DPS against a healer, if you can't kill the healer (win) then lock them down so they can't help their team (draw). By that same token, a healer will be playing the draw to last long enough for help to reach them. Hopefully that help will be enough to turn the fight in their favor and get them the win.

This is what I want but is far from what I have experienced. If it was about locking down Healer and being worried about their "protectors" that would be awesome. It's not, though.

 

My experience is I'll "bother" the healer, taking away huge chunks of their health (Which they effortlessly fill instantly and repeatedly -without mercy- back to 100% as if nothing ever happened), and because they can instantly repair whatever damage I give them, they can actually heal their team like "business as usual". Granted, if I wasn't the only one targeting the healer we could have taken them down, however the point I'm trying to get across, is that my attacks, which were causing them great damage (Taking about 1/3 of their health with each smash) didn't even hinder them as a team healer. The fact that they were taking 6k-8k damage ever 10-12 seconds meant nothing to them. They could just insta-heal and heal their teammates, rinse and repeat.

 

It's like a healer can keep themselves and most teammates at 100% simultaneously without even noticing a DPS is attacking them. They should be 'locked down' on healing themselves, but when they can basically fil 20k health in a second 3-4 times, it's no problem.

 

And stuns are more of a problem than a solution (As I find the DPS get stunned into oblivion making the OP healing an even greater problem). The second I target a healer I'm stun-locked for a solid minute, or until I'm killed.

Edited October 21, 2012 by QuietGoneJinn

[SpaniardInfinity]

 

My experience is I'll "bother" the healer, taking away huge chunks of their health (Which they effortlessly fill instantly and repeatedly -without mercy- back to 100% as if nothing ever happened), and because they can instantly repair whatever damage I give them, they can actually heal their team like "business as usual". Granted, if I wasn't the only one targeting the healer we could have taken them down, however the point I'm trying to get across, is that my attacks, which were causing them great damage (Taking about 1/3 of their health with each smash) didn't even hinder them as a team healer. The fact that they were taking 6k-8k damage ever 10-12 seconds meant nothing to them. They could just insta-heal and heal their teammates, rinse and repeat..

 

So, in this example, you are the only person attacking a healer.

 

First question: is this truly a 1v1 situation? Do they have any support? Cross-healing is a common reason healers seem so godlike and isn't always apparent. Same for taunts and guards. All of these things would make the situation more than just a 1v1.

 

Second question: what AC are they? I'm assuming you're speaking of Scoundrels since you refer to instant healing. When looking specifically at group heals, it should be easier to shutdown a Combat Medic or Bodyguard because they are already handicapped at group healing. The other ACs can be a tougher nut to crack in this department. Beyond that, each AC needs to be approached differently since each have key abilties to interrupt.

 

Third question: how are you going about controlling this healer? Are they slowed? Are you interrupting the right heals? When they try and LOS you, are you rooting or stunning them so the healer also breaks LOS on allies? Are you using stuns and knockdowns and the like while you are waiting for your interrupt to come off cooldown? Are you timing your burst so that it occurs when they are disabled and cannot immediately react?

 

Fourth and final question: where is your damage going? You are a Smash spec from reading this. Spread your damage to more than just the healer. Make them pour heals into other targets and catch them overextending. If the healer is in a pack of allies (which may suggest this isn't as much of a 1v1 and it may seem), smash all of them. Stressing the healer is more than just interrupting them and controlling them. There is no AoE heal that is even in the same ballpark as a 6-8k Smash hitting 3+ targets at the same time. That is no easy thing to just heal through, especially if that healer is alone and is eating a chunk of that damage themselves.

 

Beyond this there is a caveat: the other 14 people in the warzone. As much as we may want to ignore them for the sake of seeing if healers are truly imbalanced or not, they do play a part. And they likely will interfere. Speaking of which, what the hell are your teammates doing? If this healer is alone, under pressure, and your teammates still can't put up enough DPS to kill their enemies and/or the healer you're beating on, that is saying something about your teammates and/or the healer's teammates.

Edited October 21, 2012 by SpaniardInfinity

[Kayla_Shadowsong]

Almost every healer in a warzone will have a tank shielding them...

 

Most healers have excellent self defensive abilities to keep themselves alive...

 

Most healers have very poor ability to dish out damage...

 

A good healer should be able to escape being killed by a decent dps though a determined pursuit of a non shielded healer will still work. If the healer has a tank you're really fighting the tank not the healer... Doesn't work.

 

The key to healers is to interrupt their big heals and knock them out of the fight with a long cc or knockback... Healers are pretty dang easy to counter if you know what you're doing... Most groups target them with concentrated fire at the opening of any fight downing them almost instantly...

 

DPS that doesn't CC or interrupt a healer will be unable to kill a good healer, dps that does will be able to kill them.

 

Using stims and defensive as an Operative healer I've kitted up to 6 players before without dying... on the other hand a good dps can solo me if he understands both his class and mine.

 

The worst thing you can do with a healer of any flavor is just let them sit there and heal, if they don't have to defend themselves they can really pump out the healing power. Don't let them do that...

[BlackSpin]

Lets not be a drama queen QuietGoneJinn - I'm certain they didn't INSTA-heal themselves for 8k and then heal teammates. Did you interrupt their cast? Did you force push them? Did you force choke them? If you did and still healed himself "instantly" then he's a better player than you. Do you feel like you're the best player on the server and is absolutely entitled to kill any other player that you want?

 

The fact that they were taking 6k-8k damage ever 10-12 seconds meant nothing to them. They could just insta-heal and heal their teammates, rinse and repeat.

Edited October 21, 2012 by BlackSpin

[Ewgal]

So..nerf healing?

 

This is why PvP can't have nice things.

 

No. learn to play your dps class better. We live in an era when DPS can AoE smash for nearly 10K on recuit geared players, these guys usually have 15K health!

 

Likely you ran into a skilled healer who knows how to handle your dps class. Bioware shouldn't nerf healers to make PvP easy for DPS classes. Rather, DPS classes should learn to master their classes better in PvP.

 

At the moment DPS, and especially melee dps is if anything overpowered.

[Ewgal]

 

Those tracer missle spammers became decent healers.

 

 

This reads like a crazy Merc fantasy posting ;-)

 

No the tracer missile spammers (most of them) have never become good.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Ewgal

[Royox]

My experience vs Op. Healers (as a Vanguard dps)

 

-I hit, i hit, I hit. <He tries to heal>, Riot Strike, <He uses "a bubble", dodge, dodge, dodge, insta heal, insta heal>,hit hit hit < tries to heal again>. Cryo nade, hit, hit hit, <tries to heal again>, neural surge, hit hit, <stun, tries to heal> I use my anti CC (YES, I'M STUPID, but I always forget xD), Riot strike, <permastun, heals in my face, heals in my face, heals in my face, full HP> I'm not stunned, hit hit hit hit hit hit hit hit hit he is at 10% hp. <Vanishes>. Stealth scan, failed, I see him 10000000000000000000000 miles away at 100% hp....."fck this sh*t"

 

 

I prefer dealing vs Sorcs Healers.....I only use the anti cc when they use the whirlwind+sprint and I use harpoon while I say "where do you think u are going?" (I swear I almost say this every time I use it xD)

[BlackSpin]

HA - I say "GET OVER HERE" from Mortal Kombat in my head, well not always just in my head. That's when I get funny looks.

 

My experience vs Op. Healers (as a Vanguard dps)

 

-I hit, i hit, I hit. <He tries to heal>, Riot Strike, <He uses "a bubble", dodge, dodge, dodge, insta heal, insta heal>,hit hit hit < tries to heal again>. Cryo nade, hit, hit hit, <tries to heal again>, neural surge, hit hit, <stun, tries to heal> I use my anti CC (YES, I'M STUPID, but I always forget xD), Riot strike, <permastun, heals in my face, heals in my face, heals in my face, full HP> I'm not stunned, hit hit hit hit hit hit hit hit hit he is at 10% hp. <Vanishes>. Stealth scan, failed, I see him 10000000000000000000000 miles away at 100% hp....."fck this sh*t"

 

 

I prefer dealing vs Sorcs Healers.....I only use the anti cc when they use the whirlwind+sprint and I use harpoon while I say "where do you think u are going?" (I swear I almost say this every time I use it xD)

Edited October 21, 2012 by BlackSpin

[BlackSpin]

But you're at 100% health & he's at 100% health... so it's a wash right? And for 30 seconds of this, he wasn't healing his team while your buddies drop someone else... sounds like a win to me.

 

My experience vs Op. Healers (as a Vanguard dps)

 

-I hit, i hit, I hit. <He tries to heal>, Riot Strike, <He uses "a bubble", dodge, dodge, dodge, insta heal, insta heal>,hit hit hit < tries to heal again>. Cryo nade, hit, hit hit, <tries to heal again>, neural surge, hit hit, <stun, tries to heal> I use my anti CC (YES, I'M STUPID, but I always forget xD), Riot strike, <permastun, heals in my face, heals in my face, heals in my face, full HP> I'm not stunned, hit hit hit hit hit hit hit hit hit he is at 10% hp. <Vanishes>. Stealth scan, failed, I see him 10000000000000000000000 miles away at 100% hp....."fck this sh*t"

 

 

I prefer dealing vs Sorcs Healers.....I only use the anti cc when they use the whirlwind+sprint and I use harpoon while I say "where do you think u are going?" (I swear I almost say this every time I use it xD)

Edited October 21, 2012 by BlackSpin

[Royox]

But you're at 100% health & he's at 100% health... so it's a wash right? And for 30 seconds of this, he wasn't healing his team while your buddies drop someone else... sounds like a win to me.

 

 

But I rage a lot cause I'm at 0% ammo and he is 100% HP and Energy xD

[DarthXout]

As a healer, I gauge how good a DPS player is by how well they are able to lock me down (as in making me unable to heal my teammates, requiring me to focus on keeping myself alive). There are players that can do this solo, and they are very good players. The logical conclusion from this is that if you can not lock down a healer by yourself, then you're not as good as the players who can, which is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

(My polite attempt at saying L2P. Disabling a healer by yourself is more difficult than it sounds and requires pretty good knowledge of both your own class and the healer's class)

 

Another thing to note is that a DPS is not supposed to be able to kill a healer 1 on 1 - healers have excellent tools to keep themselves alive that can't necessarily be used to keep their teammates alive. If it were possible for a DPS to kill a healer 1 on 1 assuming equal skill/gear levels then healers would be a liability to the team. A DPS is able to cancel out the effectiveness of a healer if he is playing correctly, meaning your team is trading one of their DPS for one of the enemy team's healers which is a great tradeoff.

 

You may also be going into the fight with the wrong mindset. You don't need to kill the healer, you just need to prevent him from doing his job. Often times, as simple a thing as Force Pushing the healer down a hill far away from the battle is good enough to give you room to kill his allies or cap the turret.

 

 

 

The only way this can feasibly happen is if you are not being vigilant with your interrupts. All of the big heals for each of the 3 healer classes are all relatively slow cast-time abilities practically begging to be interrupted.

 

I came into this thread for a laugh, but ended up with an education. Thanks.

[Solarenergy]

It usually takes at least two people to kill a healer (note, this is if the healer is engaging you, not like a scenario where you are a sniper for example, and firing away at him without him ever seeming to notice.) If you're trying to kill a healer by yourself and he isn't dying, then it doesn't mean you are a bad player. Also, in those situations, it's likely that the healer isn't really damaging your HP, he's just negating your dps, and therefore it's a stalemate situation. However, just because you aren't able to kill him, it doesn't mean you aren't doing something right. By focusing on him, you're forcing him to heal himself, and that means he's not healing his teammates. Just because he stays alive, it doesn't mean his team benefits if all he's doing is running from you and healing himself the whole match.

[gpassucc]

I play a dps assassin and a dps jugg and I fully expect to not burn down good healers. Instead, as someone else already posted, a dps should counter a good healer. If a sage or scoundrel is good at their class I generally need another dps to burn them quickly if their CDs are up. Another huge part of this is knowing their class. On my jugg I get scoundrels to 31% hp, force choke them for 3-5k damage then instantly viscous throw before they can use their instant no cost sub 30% heal. If they pop evasion, have a force scream ready. On sages save your burst for after they bubble twice and use their self heal. Another thing that is quite ironic is after 1.2 people were complaining that pvp was a death match and players were dropping too quickly. I think pvp is quite balanced now in regards to being able to kill players with healers on their team. Also, I play a sorc healer and almost always get 500k+ heals and it is dam hard to heal yourself and your teammates. Just saying, it's not easy. Focus more on objectives and less on tunnel vision, it happens to me often you just have to be aware of it.

[QuietGoneJinn]

Lets not be a drama queen QuietGoneJinn - I'm certain they didn't INSTA-heal themselves for 8k and then heal teammates. Did you interrupt their cast? Did you force push them? Did you force choke them? If you did and still healed himself "instantly" then he's a better player than you. Do you feel like you're the best player on the server and is absolutely entitled to kill any other player that you want?

The problem is a lot of the abilities rarely work Force Choke is basically a toss-up of work/fail. I usually set-up a Viscous Throw by holding an enemy up with Force Choke, however 75% of the time Force Choke won't stun an enemy. They get a black collar that damages them, but they can run/heal/attack without hindrance.

 

I mean I constantly see 500k-600k healing and unless they've made some huge changes since I last played in April, those numbers were practically unheard of. Now they're commonplace. You're surprised if the healers in the game don't get at least 400k.

Edited October 22, 2012 by QuietGoneJinn

[SpaniardInfinity]

I mean I constantly see 500k-600k healing and unless they've made some huge changes since I last played in April, those numbers were practically unheard of. Now they're commonplace. You're surprised if the healers in the game don't get at least 400k.

 

So you are arguing this based on the state of the game...half a year ago?

 

1.2 is sort of infamous for nerfing healing. While I think it was a change for the better, there is no doubt that it was a heavy nerf to healers. Contributing to that is consistent buffs to damage dealers in every update (including 1.2), a new expertise curve that has less diminish returns and grants a very considerable increase on damage (~25% bonus damage at the peak v. the 10% on the old curve), and that 1.4 also made CC more forgiving making it easier to control players longer. All of this counts, I'd thing, as major changes since 1.2.

 

Yeah, you'll still see big numbers. The only AC I have personally seen reach 1 million healing or 1k HPS is Sage/Sorc, although I have seen Smugglers/Operatives and even Commando/Mercenary make a valiant bid for both. Its tougher to heal now and arguably it is easier to DPS now.

 

Speaking of which, what if I told you Smash now costs next to nothing, can be used more often, applies more or less instantaneously making it less likely to miss (it used to apply damage at the end of the animation, now it is frontloaded), is guaranteed to crit, and can hit a fully geared WH upwards of 5.5k (at that's on a Combat Medic -- just imagine what you hit a Sage for!)

Edited October 22, 2012 by SpaniardInfinity

[SOULCASTER]

If you chop one head off, two more will take its place. You take 5k off their health and 10k magically replenishes them. It's kind of funny.

 

I say this from the giving and receiving end. As a DPS class I definitely notice games where people just won't die and of 16 players there's only a combined 16 deaths for all players the entire game. Even as a DPS-speced Marauder I become practically invincible even with a moderate healer.

 

The problem with this is that Players are supposed to die in Warzones.. I have noticed fewer and fewer death totals in recent games (Unless the match is stacked hugely in one team's favor) and astronomical healing totals.

 

I've even been in 1-on-1 duels where people are capable of healing 75%-100% health 5 consecutive times in under 20 seconds. Ultimately, they're just delaying the inevitable as I can usually finish them off, but in big groups being able to replenish all of your health instantly is a bit much.

 

And disruption doesn't seem to deter it.

 

 

Dude this game, like no other, favors DPS so much, that if you can't kill a healer class 1v1 you're straight BAD.

 

is this a nerf healing thread? Im not so sure I know which way is up anymore

Edited October 22, 2012 by SOULCASTER

[Eillack]

So..nerf healing?

 

This is why PvP can't have nice things.

 

Healing was mega-nerfed for Commandos long ago even and are still half of what they were..

 

I will not lie, sinse 1.4 I gave up on dps because now we got that nerf too. On my Commando I went 98% Combat Med; there are times that it takes an entire team to kill me, assuming I'm not stun locked. Am I OP? I wish sometimes haha, but no. I am learning slowly about what is my personal best rotation in abilities, setting up my toolbars in a way it is easy for me, and being observant of my surrounding.

 

--- I am learning my AC more...that simple. One day who knows, I'll be that person at the top of the boards a lot more often...but I can easily wait; and if I'm destined to be 2nd or 3rd best...who cares I say haha. Having fun trying to keep my team alive against gank squads.

 

It all depends on team setup and SKILL. Yes gear helps...but it is mainly skill (and common sense ).

Edited October 22, 2012 by Eillack

[AshlaBoga]

If you chop one head off, two more will take its place. You take 5k off their health and 10k magically replenishes them. It's kind of funny.

 

I say this from the giving and receiving end. As a DPS class I definitely notice games where people just won't die and of 16 players there's only a combined 16 deaths for all players the entire game. Even as a DPS-speced Marauder I become practically invincible even with a moderate healer.

 

The problem with this is that Players are supposed to die in Warzones.. I have noticed fewer and fewer death totals in recent games (Unless the match is stacked hugely in one team's favor) and astronomical healing totals.

 

I've even been in 1-on-1 duels where people are capable of healing 75%-100% health 5 consecutive times in under 20 seconds. Ultimately, they're just delaying the inevitable as I can usually finish them off, but in big groups being able to replenish all of your health instantly is a bit much.

 

And disruption doesn't seem to deter it.

 

Merc Healers have ALWAYS been Hydras, sorcs and ops are ez kills though.

[Phasersablaze]

Merc Healers have ALWAYS been Hydras, sorcs and ops are ez kills though.

 

Bahaha...ahahaahaahahaha

 

 

 

Cough Cough

 

 

Bahahahhahaahahahahahahaha