Stupid F2P Restrictions

[Urael]

I have. On one game in particular I spent almost 400 dollars in one year.

 

We wont mention which game that was....its embarassing enough that I spent that much. Its pretty easy to spend quite a bit when they add convenience features and the like to the store.

 

*blink* *blanche*

 

In some cases, yes.

 

*raises eyebrow*

 

You reallize that $180 is the price of a YEARs subscription. You paid more than a subscriber for "less"?

 

*scratches head*

 

I fail to see how this makes any sense.

[Durasturan]

I've played most F2P games and I completely disagree. Most of those games couldn't keep me interested long enough to want to spend money. SWTOR is giving away the class story lines. That's a way better incentive to play this game over a game like LOTRO, IMO.

 

Except they are giving away the class story line in a way that will make it infuriating to ACTUALLY PLAY.

 

Lets say you're a brand new player, no horse in the race. You see SWTOR and think "Star Wars is kind cool, and the games is free. Might as well try."

 

So you slog through the first couple of planets no sprint, no quick travel, and finally you get to Tatooine so excited to finally ride your speeder, except no speeder, oh well you can use the money you would have spent to buy purples off the GTN... except you can't equip them, and you're crazy undergeared because after an ENTIRE WEEK you've only been able to earn 200 WZ comms so no PVP gear and you only have ONE crew skill so you take a look and realize that to actually you know, play the game you either have to drop thirty dollars on unlocks or subbed, but you thought this was at least a MOSTLY free game like all the other F2P titles out there where IF YOU WANT you can purchase cosmetics and boosts and things above and beyond the standard for real money.

 

So you decide BW is just trying to force you to sub or nickle and dime to death and you leave.

 

That is what I picture happening to about 99% of the people that will try this game out.

 

Because of free to 15, the vast majority of people interested in this game have already played it, everyone agrees the market is basically at saturation, so you're really not going to be able to convert too many subs as you likely already have and anyone that would have spent 2-3 dollars a month on extras will just leave after getting screwed on every transactions and needing three more just to make the one they bought work. "Have to buy access to flashpoints and then buy the right to equip the gear you earned etc..."

 

This version of F2P is a joke and is likely going to be a complete failure.

[LordArtemis]

*blink* *blanche*

 

 

 

*raises eyebrow*

 

You reallize that $180 is the price of a YEARs subscription. You paid more than a subscriber for "less"?

 

*scratches head*

 

I fail to see how this makes any sense.

 

Because it's not less. What you end up paying for in the store, when they offer it is convenience items and items you would have to pay credits for in game and do not wish to grind.

 

For instance, lets take speeders. If there was such an item in the store, you could pay 40k credits in game or 10 bucks in the store. I would choose to pay 10 bucks instead.

 

Also things like recoloring armor, getting unique orange armor sets not currently in game, one time consumables to increase XP, coin, drop values, random boxes, cooldown removals, etc.

 

All of these things might exist in the game but are only for specific players (like on the security or prelaunch vendors), are expensive or very time consuming to acquire. Getting them in the store allows me to enjoy playing the game instead of grinding for the credits.

 

And that is how it can get out of hand. It really runs up the bill quite a bit before you notice, at least in my experience.

Edited October 18, 2012 by LordArtemis

[Galbatorrix]

Except they are giving away the class story line in a way that will make it infuriating to ACTUALLY PLAY.

 

Lets say you're a brand new player, no horse in the race. You see SWTOR and think "Star Wars is kind cool, and the games is free. Might as well try."

 

So you slog through the first couple of planets no sprint, no quick travel, and finally you get to Tatooine so excited to finally ride your speeder, except no speeder, oh well you can use the money you would have spent to buy purples off the GTN... except you can't equip them, and you're crazy undergeared because after an ENTIRE WEEK you've only been able to earn 200 WZ comms so no PVP gear and you only have ONE crew skill so you take a look and realize that to actually you know, play the game you either have to drop thirty dollars on unlocks or subbed, but you thought this was at least a MOSTLY free game like all the other F2P titles out there where IF YOU WANT you can purchase cosmetics and boosts and things above and beyond the standard for real money.

 

So you decide BW is just trying to force you to sub or nickle and dime to death and you leave.

 

That is what I picture happening to about 99% of the people that will try this game out.

 

Because of free to 15, the vast majority of people interested in this game have already played it, everyone agrees the market is basically at saturation, so you're really not going to be able to convert too many subs as you likely already have and anyone that would have spent 2-3 dollars a month on extras will just leave after getting screwed on every transactions and needing three more just to make the one they bought work. "Have to buy access to flashpoints and then buy the right to equip the gear you earned etc..."

 

This version of F2P is a joke and is likely going to be a complete failure.

 

 

If a person refuses to pay for conveniences that make the game easier to play (like sprint, speeders, etc) then again, who cares about that person? This person will never pay for anything in the game anyway. People like this are worthless to the game.

 

And I see 99% of people buying conveniences AND subbing once they hit 50 (it's fun to throw out random, arbitrary percentages, isn't it?).

[Urael]

Sure but when I spend money on the game no one forced me to do so. It's because I have the money available and I want to do it. If I didn't deem it worth it I wouldn't do it.

 

True enough ... I just don't see the point spending lots of "real world cash" for "virtual products".

 

I can understand paying a subscription for a service.

 

I just can't understand paying for "things" that "arent' real". That money is "lost" if the "services" goes away. The money one spends on "the service" was for the ability to access the service while it was running. I don't see that as a loss.

 

[Khevar]

... stuff about f2p ...

I could see this happening.

 

But I don't really think so. Someone who first starts isn't going to have the same expectations as someone who's very familiar with the game. Let's compare this to my first toon ever way back when.

 

There was no sprint until Level 14. I walked everywhere. I read on the forums that sprint would be unlocked and I looked forward to it. Got to Tatooine and I didn't have enough $$ for the speeder right away so I shlepped around until I could afford it. I really really wanted purple items, but I was leveling pretty fast and so it didn't seem worth it to spend the little credits I had on something that would be replaced in a few hours. So I was in greens/blues most of time anyway.

 

Now when I compare this to my latest leveling experience, I had lots of legacy perks, sprint from the get-go, a grade 3 speeder at level 10, lots of money from my other level 50s, a whole set of crafted gear, leveling was a breeze. By comparison, my first toon could be considered a grind. But it seemed totally fair to me at the time.

 

Time will tell what happens with F2P, but I don't think the restrictions are so much different from my first gameplay experience in TOR. And that if I were trying F2P to see if it was worth a sub, I'd probably say "Yeah this is fun let's give them $$."

 

Just my $0.02.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Khevar

[Tim-ONeil]

So you decide BW is just trying to force you to sub or nickle and dime to death and you leave.

 

That is what I picture happening to about 99% of the people that will try this game out.

 

This is the point of F2P. If you want the features you pay for them. It's incentive based.

 

Saying that most people will not do it is illogical. You can remove yourself from this discussion if you can't make a valid point without heavy use of made up facts, made up statistics, and hyperbole.

 

Look I get it. The people complaining are upset that they will lose most of the stuff they have no when the game goes free to play. If you (informal plural) were planning on dropping your sub and still having everything you could have today I don't feel sorry for you.

[Urael]

You may boggle or even insult it. After all, entertainment and value is based on a persons particular tastes. But the fact remains, and it is indisputable...F2P is more profitable than a sub system, PERIOD. It has been proven time and time again.

 

One could argue paying for any game more than once is foolish in and of itself. One of the reasons why the single player game industry soundly trounces any MMO on the market I would expect. So throwing stones may not be the wisest thing...we may ALL be fools in the end after all.

 

I am not arguing the profitability or not of F2P. I just don't see why one would pay MORE for something than they had too.

 

If you want to waste your money, that is your right. It's a brilliant if you think about it. Doing practically nothing and getting people to pay you for it.

 

Reminds me of "Stone Soup".

 

[Durasturan]

I could see this happening.

 

But I don't really think so. Someone who first starts the game isn't going to have set expectations. Let's compare this to my first toon ever way back when.

 

There was no sprint until Level 14. I walked everywhere. I read on the forums that sprint would be unlocked and I looked forward to it. Got to Tatooine and I didn't have enough $$ for the speeder right away so I shlepped around until I could afford it. I really really wanted purple items, but I was leveling pretty fast and so it didn't seem worth it to spend the little credits I had on something that would be replaced in a few hours. So I was in greens/blues most of time anyway.

 

Now when I compare this to my latest leveling experience, I had lots of legacy perks, sprint from the get-go, a grade 3 speeder at level 10, lots of money from my other level 50s, a whole set of crafted gear, leveling was a breeze. By comparison, my first toon could be considered a grind. But it seemed totally fair to me at the time.

 

Time will tell what happens with F2P, but I don't think the restrictions are so much different from my first gameplay experience in TOR. And that if I were trying F2P to see if it was worth a sub, I'd probably say "Yeah this is fun let's give them $$."

 

Just my $0.02.

 

But you see, you stuck with it, I stuck with it, but about 70% of the people that went through it with us did NOT stick with it. By going BACK to that model with the people they are now trying to entice, I'm pretty sure it's safe to bet that at least 70% of THOSE NEW people will not stick with it either. And that's very concerning for the future of the game.

[Tim-ONeil]

True enough ... I just don't see the point spending lots of "real world cash" for "virtual products".

 

I can understand paying a subscription for a service.

 

I just can't understand paying for "things" that "arent' real". That money is "lost" if the "services" goes away. The money one spends on "the service" was for the ability to access the service while it was running. I don't see that as a loss.

 

 

Entertainment is a different medium from physical goods. Think of it like this. I don't drink, smoke, or have any other vices that I spend money on. All of those that I listed are the same as the virtual services because they have a finite ending. You pay for a 6 pack, and after it's gone and you no longer feel the effects of it that money and the item are both gone. This is the same thing thing though the things that I 'purchase' here will last much longer.

[LordArtemis]

I am not arguing the profitability or not of F2P. I just don't see why one would pay MORE for something than they had too.

 

If you want to waste your money, that is your right. It's a brilliant if you think about it. Doing practically nothing and getting people to pay you for it.

 

Reminds me of "Stone Soup".

 

 

I mean its not like what your saying is crazy. Value is relative after all, and to you it seems silly to (forgive me if this is speaking for you, correct me if I am wrong), say, pay for a 10 percent increase in running speed with real money because it doesn't seem that valuable to you. Especially if you could just play the game and have other ways to get it and save your cash.

 

And on this point I would like to say this is EXACTLY why most items in the cash shop should be available in the game in some form...so that players like this gentlemen above can acquire the items if he desires them without having to pay cash for them. To not do so is really unfair to those that do not care to spend actual cash, other than a sub IMO.

[Skulldron]

I rather let the free to players have theses restrictions then alter the game to Pay 2 win. If they don't like it, purchase an account and sub. So if people whine about the restrictions then go play another F2P MMO. I hear Hello Kitty Online is looking for people.

[Muesliac]

[...]

So you slog through the first couple of planets no sprint, no quick travel, and finally you get to Tatooine so excited to finally ride your speeder, except no speeder, oh well you can use the money you would have spent to buy purples off the GTN... except you can't equip them, and you're crazy undergeared because after an ENTIRE WEEK you've only been able to earn 200 WZ comms so no PVP gear and you only have ONE crew skill so you take a look and realize that to actually you know, play the game you either have to drop thirty dollars on unlocks or subbed, but you thought this was at least a MOSTLY free game like all the other F2P titles out there where IF YOU WANT you can purchase cosmetics and boosts and things above and beyond the standard for real money.

[...]

 

Except that you still get Sprint at Level 14, which means halfway through your second planet (Coruscant/Dromund Kaas), and not after the 'first couple of planets' (or Tatooine). Except that no-where in the F2P page it says you can't learn Speeder Piloting, or that you can't buy speeders. Also: Why would you purchase purples from the GTN if you know you can't equip them? And then: You are NOT undergeared when you're not in purples. I am currently levelling a Powertech, and I rely solely on quest rewards for my equipment. No flashpoints, no PvP, no crafting. All I use is the equipment I find or am given, or can purchase via planetary commendations (which, as far as I can make out, perfectly doable with F2P). I'm level 40 atm (between Hoth and Belsavis), and I haven't died once.

 

Please, I get that some of you think the F2P option is too restrictive. But if you want to show examples, making up stuff or exaggerating things doesn't help.

[Maviarab]

@Galba...again..Lotro gives you the WHOLE game for free. You're really not grasping that are you?

 

Except they are giving away the class story line in a way that will make it infuriating to ACTUALLY PLAY.

 

#snip#

 

This version of F2P is a joke and is likely going to be a complete failure.

 

Well said...

 

@Coldin & LordArtemis..

 

lol..well said. I also fit into this bracket *shamed* hehe

 

@urael...

 

Most of things I buy in stores are 'not' freely available in grind, or as LordArtemis said, require untold grind to obtain. I for one would rather just pay a fiver for my time. and there are more people like that than you realise. Again, the sub cost is most likely not the issue. It's the content for that cost that has driven people away.

 

@Galba...

 

If a person refuses to pay for conveniences that make the game easier to play (like sprint, speeders, etc) then again, who cares about that person? This person will never pay for anything in the game anyway. People like this are worthless to the game.

 

That kind of attitude will kill the game. I will be free to play, if the game is worth it, and interesting things in the store, I can bet I will spend more cash on this game than you...but please...lose the 'I'm an elitist sub attitude'....doesn't help anyone.

 

@tim...well said.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Maviarab

[LordArtemis]

Entertainment is a different medium from physical goods. Think of it like this. I don't drink, smoke, or have any other vices that I spend money on. All of those that I listed are the same as the virtual services because they have a finite ending. You pay for a 6 pack, and after it's gone and you no longer feel the effects of it that money and the item are both gone. This is the same thing thing though the things that I 'purchase' here will last much longer.

 

My god Tim (if you allow me to call you Tim) I think you and I agree on this point. It has happened, folks..the sky has fallen

[LordArtemis]

Except that you still get Sprint at Level 14, which means halfway through your second planet (Coruscant/Dromund Kaas), and not after the 'first couple of planets' (or Tatooine). Except that no-where in the F2P page it says you can't learn Speeder Piloting, or that you can't buy speeders. Also: Why would you purchase purples from the GTN if you know you can't equip them? And then: You are NOT undergeared when you're not in purples. I am currently levelling a Powertech, and I rely solely on quest rewards for my equipment. No flashpoints, no PvP, no crafting. All I use is the equipment I find or am given, or can purchase via planetary commendations (which, as far as I can make out, perfectly doable with F2P). I'm level 40 atm (between Hoth and Belsavis), and I haven't died once.

 

Please, I get that some of you think the F2P option is too restrictive. But if you want to show examples, making up stuff or exaggerating things doesn't help.

 

Yea, to add to this with my experience, though I do occasionally buy items on the GTN, most of my gear is drop based. I find I compensate for this by engaging in the same practice I do in single player RPGs I play...I outlevel the area I am in. That way my level gives me the power boost I need. I try to stay 3 to 4 levels above what the minimum level is for a particular planet or flashpoint.

[Urael]

Entertainment is a different medium from physical goods. Think of it like this. I don't drink, smoke, or have any other vices that I spend money on. All of those that I listed are the same as the virtual services because they have a finite ending. You pay for a 6 pack, and after it's gone and you no longer feel the effects of it that money and the item are both gone. This is the same thing thing though the things that I 'purchase' here will last much longer.

 

I guess it's a matter of the "value of use". In your example of a consumable the value of use was in the consumption. The value of use of a virtual "property" has a longer "value of use" this is certain. But, if you compare the virtual product to a non-consumable like a book, DVD or CD unless those items are stolen from you their value of use is much longer than the probability that the virtual item will be around. As soon as the service on which those items are provided shuts down you have them effectively stolen from you.

 

It's bad enough to pay for a game service and go about "collecting" "virtual things" with in the context of utilizing the game service but, to pay extra money to aquire virtual things that aren't needed I will never understand.

[Urael]

 

@urael...

 

Most of things I buy in stores are 'not' freely available in grind, or as LordArtemis said, require untold grind to obtain. I for one would rather just pay a fiver for my time. and there are more people like that than you realise. Again, the sub cost is most likely not the issue. It's the content for that cost that has driven people away.

 

Post #399 this thread.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Urael

[Khevar]

But you see, you stuck with it, I stuck with it, but about 70% of the people that went through it with us did NOT stick with it. By going BACK to that model with the people they are now trying to entice, I'm pretty sure it's safe to bet that at least 70% of THOSE NEW people will not stick with it either. And that's very concerning for the future of the game.

Do you think that the people that didn't stick with it left due to the lack of convenience options? I think they left for other reasons, such as a disagreement with how end-game was handled, on-rails space, unhandled bugs, pvp balance, downtime during prime-time hours, empty servers and other similar problems.

 

I've had friends leave the game as well. Not one of them cared about convenience or lack of it. The game will succeed or fail based on how good the game itself is, not at what level you unlock sprint, if you have to pay to unlock purple items, etc

Edited October 18, 2012 by Khevar

[Shikyo]

Reading through this thread I'm left wondering what exactly free to play MMO meant to some of you or what experiences you had with F2P. There are several F2P MMO's out there and all I can suggest to some of is to go play them for a little bit to see how the model works. They are free so it will only cost you time but what you should get out of it is the understanding that bioware is doing pretty much the same thing and these restrictions you have to pay to unlock (unless subscribed) are actually on par. Nothing is truly free and unless you play casually and only focus on one certain aspect of the game, the subscription will always be the best option.

 

As for some of the flash point and warzone concerns for the restrictions not helping out subscribers with more frequent pops, let me test that logic: (these numbers are not exact but instead just a example)

Currently we have 500k subscribers playing and doing warzones as a example.

F2P brings in 200k more users that can do 3 a week suggesting that none of them invest in the weekly pass.

Now let's say that only 100k of the F2P users compete in warzones.

How is 100k more users doing 3 warzones a week not adding more to the pot then only the current 500k subscribers? Even at only 3 per person a week that's 100k more war zone players for at least 3 warzones a week then we currently have. And also keep in mind that they haven't discussed how much it will cost for this stuff yet meaning that the weekly pass may only cost $1-$2 a week meaning monthly for those that only like to pvp it would cost the $4-$8 a month vs $15 being more cost effective for them. Now compared to the subscription that may seem like a rip off but if you only enjoy pvp and don't do the other stuff then for you it is better.

 

Humor this analogy if you will as it pertains to the purpose of weekly passes vs subscribers pass:

I call to order pizza and I only ever eat 1 pizza which cost $8 but if I get two pizza's it's only $12 making each pizza cost $6 instead of $8.

Obviously the two for $12 are a better deal but I only need one. So do I spend the extra $4 for the better deal even tho I won't eat the other pizza? Or do I save the $4 and just go for the one and leave nothing to waste?

(I'm hungry right now which is why I made a food analogy lol)

 

Anyway, the above analogy is the value of F2P vs subscription.

I personally love all aspects of the game, participate actively in all aspects and regularly, this making it a easy decision and most valuable for me to stay a subscriber.

Now if I only played casually for the stories and only participated in endgame PVE then I'd only invest in the flashpoint passes as needed (might only need to do three a week for the weekly) and the operation pass as needed based on raid schedule and save the extra few dollars a month, occasionally splurging on the cash shop of other neet stuff I may want and THAT is the business of F2P and how it becomes profitable for the company while still bringing value to the niche casual player. Hardcore players maintain their game and value with the subscription.

 

Anyway, that is my thoughts on the subject and overall I'm not concerned with F2P as it seems about right as of now, but I could change my mind once I see the cartel shop and how much things actually cost. If the items cost a rediculous amount of tokens then the value significantly drops for F2P users and subscribers will be saving MONTHS of cartel advances to purchase anything from the shop.

[Durasturan]

Do you think that the people that didn't stick with it left due to the lack of convenience options? I think they left for other reasons, such as a disagreement with how end-game was handled, on-rails space, unhandled bugs, pvp balance, downtime during prime-time hours, empty servers and other similar problems.

 

I've had friends leave the game as well. Not one of them cared about convenience or lack of it. The game will succeed or fail based on how well the game itself is, not at what level you unlock sprint, if you have to pay to unlock purple items, etc

 

The single biggest factor according to BW is money. People thought BW was charging too much for what they were getting. If they start nickle and diming people it's going to be the EXACT SAME THING over again, instead of subs it's going to be interlaced systems and functions with hidden costs and poor interoperability.

[Muesliac]

Do you think that the people that didn't stick with it left due to the lack of convenience options? I think they left for other reasons, such as a disagreement with how end-game was handled, on-rails space, unhandled bugs, pvp balance, downtime during prime-time hours, empty servers and other similar problems.

 

I've had friends leave the game as well. Not one of them cared about convenience or lack of it. The game will succeed or fail based on how well the game itself is, not at what level you unlock sprint, if you have to pay to unlock purple items, etc

 

Very well said. I am one of those 'quitters' myself: I played through a class story, found the endgame to be "not something I feel justified to spend money on", and left. I've recently picked up my sub because I wanted to level another toon (=experience another class story), but after that? I will probably unsub again. Simply because the end game itself (after the story is played though) isn't worth my money.

 

It's not about convenience for me. TOR has lots of it. It's about not being engaged in the world, having nothing 'meaningful' to etc. But that's another topic altogether ;-).

[Khevar]

The single biggest factor according to BW is money. People thought BW was charging too much for what they were getting. If they start nickle and diming people it's going to be the EXACT SAME THING over again, instead of subs it's going to be interlaced systems and functions with hidden costs and poor interoperability.

Time will tell if you're right about this, but I think if F2P fails it will be for other reasons than the convenience restrictions.

[LordArtemis]

But getting back on the original issue I wanted to make sure my two cents were clear for anyone that wishes to counter them.

 

1) I think the current restrictions on F2P are fine for now. I would like to see expensive but permanent unlocks added in the future. The only issue is that I think it should be one character PER SERVER.

 

2) I think preferred accounts should get some alterations to the current setup, if it is F2P except what is listed at the top of the page. I think they should have 3 characters instead of one to unlock, they should have more FP and Warzones each week without paying for them (1 each a day would suffice IMO) and should not have any restrictions on items or features they have already acquired or unlocked. So if they have current purple gear or mods, they should be able to keep them.

 

3) I strongly suggest they add convenience items to the cash shop right away. Things like color changers for chest armor, free one use mod removal, speeder rentals, one use one character appearance change, character transfers, character renames, XP/Coin/Loot boosts, free revive, gear damage avoidance, etc. This would appeal to ALL players IMO.

Edited October 18, 2012 by LordArtemis

[Maviarab]

@Ura...

 

#399...yes..agree pretty much 100%, was sure I said that, must have forgot to post it...my age

 

@Galba...

 

Lmao...umm..thanks...I think hehe