Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Vaerah]

I don't know if premades are ruining non-ranked warzones but on the Bastion, matches against those half-premades lead to epic games. We win some, we lose some. It's only when your team are full of idiots that games against premades are painful.

 

That's why early in this thread I proposed to also match players with their valor level. Sure it's quite a "fuzzy" criterion to say the least but at least it's very simple to implement and would put together 4 men vs *good* PUGs and not 25k, 1 week /played noobs.

 

1 week /played noobs should fight against similar people, it's unfun and not teaching to just be farmed like pigs the whole day.

Similarly, almost full conqueror PUGs should (yeah I am so optimist) know better and could be matched against "normal" 4 men. By normal I mean those "4 friends / guildies team together" groups, not the "super mega min maxed, FOTM and geared top server guild RWZ steam rollers". Those should get their own 4 men / arenas / whatever.

[Kombatikon]

Another I get owned at PvP post so Ima jump on forum and cry about it HAHAHAHAHA

[Atramar]

That's why early in this thread I proposed to also match players with their valor level. Sure it's quite a "fuzzy" criterion to say the least but at least it's very simple to implement and would put together 4 men vs *good* PUGs and not 25k, 1 week /played noobs.

 

1 week /played noobs should fight against similar people, it's unfun and not teaching to just be farmed like pigs the whole day.

Similarly, almost full conqueror PUGs should (yeah I am so optimist) know better and could be matched against "normal" 4 men. By normal I mean those "4 friends / guildies team together" groups, not the "super mega min maxed, FOTM and geared top server guild RWZ steam rollers". Those should get their own 4 men / arenas / whatever.

 

Valor means only that some one spent their time in warzone.

Was teamed with alor 70 guy in rakata grade gear with no augments, who got beaten in top dps by my tank valor 54, with me mostly guarding my (not mine as my guildy, just a promising merc healer who placed kolto shell on me) healer and stopping caps, pulling and slowing.. and no, he wasn't lone defender either nor he had many deaths.

 

win/lose is safer option, when you consider bads who drag their team down, they almost always lose while you win more often then them while 'uber premades' win rating will be high... I often pity people who yell at fleet 'reps/imps sucks, I loose 95% of my games, my team sucks' (double o intended), they must be terrible to drag down every single team...

[UncelSam]

Yet an other day with premades runing the WZs.

 

They dont belong in regular WZ since it unbalances fights. While PUG are very lucky to have at least 1 (!) healer at thier team , the premades got at least 2 or even 3, along with tanks and dps protecting them. And the healers got real Heavy skill expertise. Thats also something that most casual healer player dont have, since they want to be a mixed character.

 

Remove the premades from the reglar WZ NOW!!!

 

Theres just less and less players around playing the game already, it seems BW are really into destroying the game once again.

[Clifffeh]

Don't remove pre-mades and create a comprehensive matchmaking system. Grouped players significantly more likely to get matched with another group. Chances of this happening increases as the party moves past 2 players. Furthermore, implement cross server ques. This should decrease que times and revitalize the pvp community.

 

I don't mean to sound like an elitist but there are MANY bads in regular BGs. People, typically, don't hop in there for objectives, they just want to hit things.

 

With that sad, you shouldn't be doing PvP solo and expecting fantastic outcomes. There is a reason why it doesn't work out too well when your team's communication is lacking. Simply the nature of the beast.

 

We can try to make it more "casual" friendly, but that isn't going to remove back peddlers, keyboard turners, acid / fire walkers, CC breakers, medal farmers, and a plethora of "selfish play" characteristics. That is why you group up in order to challenge like minded individuals who want to take PvP slightly more serious than the keyboard smashers.

 

Objectives should "count" for more than letting your team know who is attempting to follow them to get an almost insignificant "MVP" vote. Change the rewards in order to change behavior. What is the sweet spot? Idk, but i don't get paid to figure that kind of stuff out

[UncelSam]

Its not complicated or anything like that to create two queues:

 

Premades vs Premades

 

PUG vs PUG

[Atramar]

Its not complicated or anything like that to create two queues:

 

Premades vs Premades

 

PUG vs PUG

 

it's not even funny anymore....

[SajPl]

Its not complicated or anything like that to create two queues:

 

Premades vs Premades

 

PUG vs PUG

 

It's not hard to learn your class and get the 360k damage medal. But NO the 50k damage horrorshows rather whine in this thread lol.

[MitchPB]

Its not complicated or anything like that to create two queues:

 

Premades vs Premades

 

PUG vs PUG

 

494 pages and you people still don't understand why this is never going to happen

[UncelSam]

The pvp-content of the game is uttlery unplayable if your not premade. I see few and few players thats online. usually theres about 250+ players on the fleet, nowdays theres barely 150 at top hours. And all I talk to dislikes the pvp part due to the Premades.

 

This game will slowly die cause of the joy of a few bad pvpers that has to hide in the shroud of massive heals to survive. They build up thier self confidance by stomping PUG players. PUG players that later quit the gaem sicne theres no PvP content.

 

Ive seen games like this die Before of the same reason; A Company that doenst know whats good for the majority of players.

 

 

Creating two separete pvp queues is nothard and it wont make the queue time any long than it is today.

 

It will just increse the joy of the majority of players,

 

I'll laugh when this game dies, and you stand there, *** happened!?

[otherworlder]

*Sigh*

 

Why do you beat on a dead horse (and in turn make me do so?).

 

Every "advantage" a Premade has is not exclusive to a Premade (except voice-chat), nor is it automatically granted to a Premade by the act of queuing.

 

Therefore, every advantage a Premade has (including voice chat) would be reflected in a win/loss or skill-based rating system. Using that system in a matchmaking system, Advantaged/Better players will be placed against like, and Disadvantaged/Lesser player the same, while keeping queue times low regardless of queue type

 

The only point at which it "fails" is when the population is too low to create a game based on any percentage of criteria. In that situation, the other common option fails as well (split queues), resulting in No match for the largest amount of players (up to 30 players unable to play).

 

I'd even say (though I think it's a bit redundant) the matchmaking system could prioritize by queue type when possible.

 

Can we agree on this, or do we need to get into another debate about "advantages"

 

This suggestion is a touch naive. Except for two servers, the others don't and will likely never have the thriving pvp community necessary for your matchmaking solution to work regularly as the pool being drawn from just isn't large enough. Cross server is the only way that could ever work, and BW has repeatedly inferred that their cruddy, cobbled engine can't support it.

 

So in the end, by suggesting "matchmaking for even teams first, hopeless premade v pug mismatch if that fails," what you're really suggesting is a retention of the status quo on most servers because the latter will occur more often than the former.

 

If solo puggers had their own dedicated queue, the casuals that dominate the populations of MMO pvp would have a safe place to play where they can just catass around and have mindless fun (which is the direction gaming is going in the modern world anyway). Instead this vast majority of players get alienated and leave, and we (the hardcore pvpers) lose the money they would have brought to the game. Queue times dry up, everyone loses.

 

The only ones losing if they separate the queues are premades, who are a very small minority in mmo pvp. I'm comfortable with that. So are industry leaders like Blizzard, who realize that alienating the bulk of your pvp base to satisfy the desires of the few hurts your bottom line.

 

What's the solution?

 

Not really sure there is one that will work. I'm all for solo-only queue toggle, because it would minimize the problem. Even if premades try to 'beat the system' by queuing up at the same time, they'll still end up divided between teams in same-faction matches so that's already an improvement. But the potential for cheating the system remains.

 

The only real lasting solution is cross server matchmaking, which is really what everyone should be clamoring for from the mountaintops. BW says they don't care to do it or simply can't handle it, but that's really where the answer is.

[otherworlder]

The pvp-content of the game is uttlery unplayable if your not premade. I see few and few players thats online. usually theres about 250+ players on the fleet, nowdays theres barely 150 at top hours. And all I talk to dislikes the pvp part due to the Premades.

 

This game will slowly die cause of the joy of a few bad pvpers that has to hide in the shroud of massive heals to survive. They build up thier self confidance by stomping PUG players. PUG players that later quit the gaem sicne theres no PvP content.

 

Ive seen games like this die Before of the same reason; A Company that doenst know whats good for the majority of players.

 

Creating two separete pvp queues is nothard and it wont make the queue time any long than it is today.

 

It will just increse the joy of the majority of players,

 

I'll laugh when this game dies, and you stand there, *** happened!?

 

What you're prophesying very nearly happened in THIS game already, at least on a number of servers. Before ftp when BW utterly botched the launch of RWZs, many pvpers left in disappointment and all of the teams gearing up for it that remained decided to farm the regs instead. For hours a day you couldn't queue without facing a stacked premade as a result, and puggers promptly stopped queueing altogether.

 

Queue times stretched out badly. More people left, including many of those pugstomper groups and "practice" premades. Pretty soon you couldn't get a pop for hours at a time except at peak.

 

I understand that ftp and Makeb fixed a lot of that by infusing a new pool of players back into the population, but the cycle is coming back around again. Premades who are eternally "practicing" for RWZs, or simply prefer pugstomping to doing competitive ranked have all returned. Queues are getting longer again. BW didn't learn their lesson, and neither did the pugstompers who killed the golden goose and are now on the road to doing it again.

 

Is that the only reason PvPers leave? No, of course not. But it's a big one. TOR only gets a few chances to make a good impression on new pvpers, and if those first impressions are of getting curbstomped for a few hours by coordinated premades, new blood dries up fast.

 

Also, ironic sidebar------it's no secret why many of the same failings that murdered Warhammer Online's PVP scene are happening in TOR. They were essentially made by the same dev teams. EA bought up the crew that made WAR and put them to work on TOR, despite the train wreck on their resume.

[Jadescythe]

The pvp-content of the game is uttlery unplayable if your not premade. I see few and few players thats online. usually theres about 250+ players on the fleet, nowdays theres barely 150 at top hours. And all I talk to dislikes the pvp part due to the Premades.

 

This game will slowly die cause of the joy of a few bad pvpers that has to hide in the shroud of massive heals to survive. They build up thier self confidance by stomping PUG players. PUG players that later quit the gaem sicne theres no PvP content.

 

Ive seen games like this die Before of the same reason; A Company that doenst know whats good for the majority of players.

 

 

Creating two separete pvp queues is nothard and it wont make the queue time any long than it is today.

 

It will just increse the joy of the majority of players,

 

I'll laugh when this game dies, and you stand there, *** happened!?

 

Believe me, if solo queuing against premades is a serious issue for you, then you have more problems than you think. I manage to do just fine against them, even with only 6-7 people on my side at any point during this match from leavers and whiners.

 

If SSs aren't good enough, I'd be happy to get you a recording to watch. It's not premades that are the problem, it's a skill thing.

[UncelSam]

I just cant see what strategy BW is following. Is it to piss-off as many cistomers as possible or what? We cant get any new players with this PUG stomping going on.

 

Maybe its better for all if SWTOR just died? So they can make a new game as replacement.

[Atramar]

if pugging is so impossible, you lose all games unless you are premaded omg stomper, how I am able to finish weekly on 3 characters doing nothing but solo que? cause, I am.

[otherworlder]

I just cant see what strategy BW is following. Is it to piss-off as many cistomers as possible or what? We cant get any new players with this PUG stomping going on.

 

Maybe its better for all if SWTOR just died? So they can make a new game as replacement.

 

Hopefully it's not as bad as all of that quite yet.

 

Unfortunately BW has a bad habit of ignoring their customers and industry trends alike. They need to start paying closer attention to their player base, and the research/innovations of other MMOs that have done the homework on issues like premades v pugs, arenas, and the proportion of players who pvp vs those who do not (and which are more likely to dump a load of money in a cash shop).

 

EA pulling all of the strings and keeping TOR on milking-mode certainly doesn't help, and is not encouraging.

[Raazmir]

Hopefully it's not as bad as all of that quite yet.

 

Unfortunately BW has a bad habit of ignoring their customers and industry trends alike. They need to start paying closer attention to their player base, and the research/innovations of other MMOs that have done the homework on issues like premades v pugs, arenas, and the proportion of players who pvp vs those who do not (and which are more likely to dump a load of money in a cash shop).

 

EA pulling all of the strings and keeping TOR on milking-mode certainly doesn't help, and is not encouraging.

 

How do you know they haven't and their business model isn't based nearly entirely around that fact?

[otherworlder]

How do you know they haven't and their business model isn't based nearly entirely around that fact?

 

Evidence and patterns of behavior.

 

If what you presume were true, they'd be placing less emphasis on Cartel Market and more on actual content for the subscribers / pvp base, who are the loyal customers who keep a game afloat. But they've made it abundantly clear that CM remains their biggest priority with the most frequent updates and a lot of crass tactics designed for fast cash grabs rather than sustainability and player satisfaction (black/black dye, bugged armor sets that never get fixed, etc)

 

EA as a company has a proven track record for this sort of nickel-and-diming and moneygrubbing no matter what it does to a game in the long term; it's not a mystery. BW also has a proven track record of ignoring player feedback outright and firing off untested updates.

 

Believe me, I'd love it if this game fell into the hands of a developer and publisher that actually had some respect and energy for the Star Wars universe. It's so close to greatness, it just needs a new hand on the wheel.

[cashogy_reborn]

its funny that the pro-solo queue people think they are in the majority.

[Raazmir]

Evidence and patterns of behavior.

 

If what you presume were true, they'd be placing less emphasis on Cartel Market and more on actual content for the subscribers / pvp base, who are the loyal customers who keep a game afloat. But they've made it abundantly clear that CM remains their biggest priority with the most frequent updates and a lot of crass tactics designed for fast cash grabs rather than sustainability and player satisfaction (black/black dye, bugged armor sets that never get fixed, etc)

 

EA as a company has a proven track record for this sort of nickel-and-diming and moneygrubbing no matter what it does to a game in the long term; it's not a mystery. BW also has a proven track record of ignoring player feedback outright and firing off untested updates.

 

Believe me, I'd love it if this game fell into the hands of a developer and publisher that actually had some respect and energy for the Star Wars universe. It's so close to greatness, it just needs a new hand on the wheel.

 

What evidence?

 

I see people cracking CM packs all the time. Its also probably among the easiest and non balance affecting things to put into the game as it's mostly reskins and emotes.

 

I don't actually see that end-game pve/pvpers are what keeps this game afloat....that evidence is not at all clear to me, but perhaps you have some numbers somewhere to back that claim up?

[otherworlder]

its funny that the pro-solo queue people think they are in the majority.

 

It's not us, it's Blizzard. They already did the math on the participation of casual, solo pvpers versus those who do dedicated premades. They've spoken openly about it, and the link has been posted elsewhere. In a setting as accessible as Star Wars, I find it very hard to believe that those statistics would differ much; if anything, such a popular IP would draw MORE casuals, not fewer.

 

Like it or not, the MMO genre is no longer just for dedicated, hardcore gamers who pump hours a night into their chosen hobby. More and more it's been hybridized and simplified for the enjoyment of that vast population of more casual players who just want to pop in for *****s and giggles and don't have the time or inclination to group up to do so.

[DimeStax]

It's not us, it's Blizzard. They already did the math on the participation of casual, solo pvpers versus those who do dedicated premades. They've spoken openly about it, and the link has been posted elsewhere. In a setting as accessible as Star Wars, I find it very hard to believe that those statistics would differ much; if anything, such a popular IP would draw MORE casuals, not fewer.

 

Like it or not, the MMO genre is no longer just for dedicated, hardcore gamers who pump hours a night into their chosen hobby. More and more it's been hybridized and simplified for the enjoyment of that vast population of more casual players who just want to pop in for *****s and giggles and don't have the time or inclination to group up to do so.

 

You don't need to group up to do WZs, when you solo-que it will find a group for you. Just don't complain that the people it randomly puts you with aren't always as good as the other team. If you're getting stomped in WZ's it's because the other team is better than you and your team, there is no other reason. There is no easymode in PvP, but you can make sure your WZ experience is more enjoyable by only choosing to play with people who are good at PvP, which is what the group-que is for.

Edited July 17, 2013 by DimeStax

[otherworlder]

What evidence?

 

I see people cracking CM packs all the time. Its also probably among the easiest and non balance affecting things to put into the game as it's mostly reskins and emotes.

 

I don't actually see that end-game pve/pvpers are what keeps this game afloat....that evidence is not at all clear to me, but perhaps you have some numbers somewhere to back that claim up?

 

CM packs are a good thing for the game. There's a reason pretty much every MMO has a cash shop or will soon. Getting people to buy shinies for real money adds resources to development budgets, if it's given a sustainable model. TOR's is not. For one thing, it's all very expensive by cash shop standards with a few exceptions. For another, they pretty much force even the subscription players to spend RL money for any of the truly awesome armor skins (unless you're willing to drop a ton of credits at the GTN), while those obtainable via ordinary in-game means tend to be lots of reskins, downright ugly, or just bland by comparison (this is to say nothing of how crafters took the bone because of it).

 

Sub players are actually the ones most likely to dump a lot of money in a cash shop, because they're committed to a game over the long term. F2Pers are much more likely to bounce around between games (they'll spend impulse money in the cash shop but only during that initial surge of excitement over a new game. Then they get bored fast and go repeat the process in another MMO). But if the bulk of new content becomes cosmetic only, the subbers stop subbing. The research is out there friend, if it's a topic that interests you I highly recommend googling it.

 

Remember, it's possible to do both. GW2 has far more frequent content updates than TOR, plus a cash shop. They're committed to the future of their game so they work hard at it.

 

You also have to keep in mind that all of the new content we've been given since TOR crash-and-burned before ftp was already made before the development staff took huge cuts. Data-miners knew it was there for a very long time, and BW has just been gradually eking it out, which is strongly indicative that very little of the money the CM rakes in is being directed back into TOR's budget (a tactic EA is notorious for once they've decided a game has failed their projections).

 

If you want hard evidence of BW's trends, all you have to do is look back through their patch notes and history since launch. It's all there.

[otherworlder]

You don't need to group up to do WZs, when you solo-que it will find a group for you. Just don't complain that the people it randomly puts you with aren't always as good as the other team. If you're getting stomped in WZ's it's because the other team is better than you and your team, there is no other reason. There is no easymode in PvP, but you can make sure your WZ experience is more enjoyable by only choosing to play with people who are good at PvP, which is what the group-que is for.

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that randomness will always be a factor, no matter how much you try to balance teams. I believe the point is that is you're more likely (not guaranteed) to get something closer to a fair match when you split the bads and the goods equally rather than trying to get all of the goods on one side.

[HuaRya]

For those who's argument is premades have few advantages over solo queue's. Also consider:

 

* Premades will more than likely be wearing better gear or simply PVP gear. Ever get on a pug team where at least three are wearing green implants/relics/earpiece and have under 24k health?

 

 

An easy matchmaking fix would be to make sure that any team of 4 premade be facing another team of 4 on the opposite team. If another team of 4 was not available for the half premade to be opposite against they would have to wait in the queue the same way a DPS has to wait in the PVE groupfinder.