lock box debate

[utio]

QFT! Anyone who was playing STO from launch can remember the "nothing game changing will appear in the store" line by Cryptic, until they did this:

 

1) Put the "exclusive" pre-order rewards that people payed top dollars for into the store.

2) Put Ships/gear with better stats on the store making it pay2win overnight. (these items MAY be obtainable by other means if you want to grind for a few months if you are lucky....)

3) The great lock-box con......how blatantly cash-grabbing is that?

 

Mark my words, as soon as FTP hits you will see a raft of items in the store that WERE ear-marked as "content", there will be no more "content" other than store items (including new areas/planets/warzones).

 

There's a difference here, as the game won't be fully FTP. And name me something in sto that was from lockboxes that you had to have to play the game. Sure there's exclusive ships but you don't need them.

Also, it's not a con. To con someone means you have to deceive them into giving you their money. They say exactly what's available in the boxes, so it's not a con.

Anyone who buys a lockbox and whinges they didn't get what they paid for/wanted is a fool who is easily parted from his money. There is nothing wrong with them, people are just worried it'll have some nice shiney in it that they want.

[kooffee]

Stuff that I can take or leave, but that other people will willingly pay a little extra money to have.

 

You have a problem with people being given things that they can spend their money on if they want to?

 

What do you care if someone spends a few dollars to get some spiffy armor?

 

No guns are being put to anyone's heads here. Your character can wear the gear that they have right now and perform just as well.

 

Heck, I have no problem not buying stuff. I have never even felt the need to buy the lower-level speeder access as a legacy option. I know that these mystery boxes aren't being put into the game for my benefit.

 

I won't buy them. Simple and done. If you have a problem with them, I suggest that you don't buy them either.

 

But other people? They can do what they want to do, and if they buy these boxes, then more power to them. I hope they get what they are looking for.

 

 

so we should give up gambling laws, and let children under-age gamble? it doesn't matter if the prize is worth 0.1 or 10.00 it is still under-age gambling. is that person going to stop if they don't get what they want from the first box? 2nd? 3rd? 4th? 5th? 6th? 7th? 20th? what about the month after when the next item comes? after all noone going to want to open any boxes unless it has some really fat loot.

 

In fact its worse, because it will be taking advantaging of young developing minds which is exactly the reason we have gambling laws to protect children. do you really think the big casinos care if a child was betting or not? no they don't. but governments and parents do and there is a lot of medical evidence to support the fact teenage and younger minds are very susceptible to these mini "highs"

 

the idea is going to be simple, spam every player with loads of boxes and make them want to pay to take a chance.

 

these are not just simple keys to a lock door, these lock boxes are nothing more than a pay per roll which is exactly like the 100's of legal casino games.

 

 

i spend 3 days a week working for a gambling charity its bad enough seeing those in the 20's totally taken over by the buzz, but if its going into video games, then a matter of years a gambler will be about 16 then

[simplius]

That's exactly my damn point. Meaning that they're going to eventually put things in there that people HAVE to buy to have an edge, because from what we've seen so far, instead of make the game worth the subscription, they just want a cash cow, so they're going to do whatever they can to milk you, they have thrown integrity out of the window.

 

actually u have to sign everything over to the devil, when u make an MMO:p

 

also , don forget the sacrifice of 13 virgin secretaries on launch day:eek:

[simplius]

as for P2W, i rarely PVP so my opinions may not matter but:

 

the "gamer" with few money, but more time and skill

 

the "casual" with more money, but fewer skills and time

 

P2W will even that match, giving more income to the game,

 

but also requiring the "gamer " to take one for the team

 

even though this "deal" looks okay on paper,, in real life , the gamer will leave for another game

 

thats what happened in most other MMOs

[simplius]

im surprised, how well the boxes are selling in STO,,unless they lie about it

 

every 5- 10 mins theres 1 or 2 guys aquiring the orb weaver ship, or whatever

 

and the fact that they dont tell it in normal chat

 

but IN A BIG MESSAGE ACROSS THE SCREEN

 

thats marketing at its worst, i have no problems with spending money in STO

 

but lockboxes? no thanx, i buy only what i can see,,borg officers,refit ships,,,

 

and SHORT SKIRTS:D

[utio]

so we should give up gambling laws, and let children under-age gamble? it doesn't matter if the prize is worth 0.1 or 10.00 it is still under-age gambling. is that person going to stop if they don't get what they want from the first box? 2nd? 3rd? 4th? 5th? 6th? 7th? 20th? what about the month after when the next item comes? after all noone going to want to open any boxes unless it has some really fat loot.

 

In fact its worse, because it will be taking advantaging of young developing minds which is exactly the reason we have gambling laws to protect children. do you really think the big casinos care if a child was betting or not? no they don't. but governments and parents do and there is a lot of medical evidence to support the fact teenage and younger minds are very susceptible to these mini "highs"

 

the idea is going to be simple, spam every player with loads of boxes and make them want to pay to take a chance.

 

these are not just simple keys to a lock door, these lock boxes are nothing more than a pay per roll which is exactly like the 100's of legal casino games.

 

 

i spend 3 days a week working for a gambling charity its bad enough seeing those in the 20's totally taken over by the buzz, but if its going into video games, then a matter of years a gambler will be about 16 then

 

So ban all forms of gambling because parents can't be parents? Or because there's a guy round the corner who can't stop spending money on the lottery?

Ban all cigarettes? Smoking addiction.

Ban all alcohol? Alcoholism.

Ban fairground games, sticker albums, scratch cards, credit cards?

Yes there are people who have a problem, but that's not everyone else's fault. The biggest annoyance to me in this is the kids need to be protected from lockboxes argument. What about the violence in this game? Torture? Is that ok for young impressionable minds?

[Redat]

So ban all forms of gambling because parents can't be parents? Or because there's a guy round the corner who can't stop spending money on the lottery?

Ban all cigarettes? Smoking addiction.

Ban all alcohol? Alcoholism.

Ban fairground games, sticker albums, scratch cards, credit cards?

Yes there are people who have a problem, but that's not everyone else's fault. The biggest annoyance to me in this is the kids need to be protected from lockboxes argument. What about the violence in this game? Torture? Is that ok for young impressionable minds?

 

Typical "I'm alright jack stuff the rest".........clearly needs to grow up and smell what hes shovelin

[utio]

Typical "I'm alright jack stuff the rest".........clearly needs to grow up and smell what hes shovelin

 

Seriously? You seriously think that the millions of people that enjoy gambling, drinking, smoking, etc should have it taken away because of a few people that can't manage an addiction? Of course thats blowing things out of proportion, but the point is lockboxes shouldnf not be in the game because some people will spend all their money on them.

[kooffee]

So ban all forms of gambling because parents can't be parents?

Or because there's a guy round the corner who can't stop spending money on the lottery?

Ban all cigarettes? Smoking addiction.

Ban all alcohol? Alcoholism.

Ban fairground games, sticker albums, scratch cards, credit cards?

Yes there are people who have a problem, but that's not everyone else's fault. The biggest annoyance to me in this is the kids need to be protected from lockboxes argument. What about the violence in this game? Torture? Is that ok for young impressionable minds?

 

it isn't the fact kids need protection,

its a fact protection is allready in place and game company's are using grey areas and loopholes to get around them.

 

take this example. how would you feel if lets say your child is able to register a account and bet money on a random event and spent lets say 30.00, then month after he spend 50.00 for the next fad, when you look you relies the payment method was in your name, but the account is in the name of your child? parents fault? you thought it was just some game and you was paying for a subscription like most other games,

 

you didn't know some random pay to spin game using real money was in the game.

 

there is really no difference between going into a casino and paying for chips to place bets and playing a video game and buying a virtual chip to spend on a bet, loads of company's already do this legally and within the law, they do not take advantage of grey areas and try to get away with it before everyone catches up. and it should not be even thought about has central to f2p business model.

[Redat]

Seriously? You seriously think that the millions of people that enjoy gambling, drinking, smoking, etc should have it taken away because of a few people that can't manage an addiction? Of course thats blowing things out of proportion, but the point is lockboxes shouldnf not be in the game because some people will spend all their money on them.

 

I NEVER stated ANYTHING about gambling/addiction or anything of the like, I object to players being dimed to death, period........please read before putting your words out there........

[utio]

it isn't the fact kids need protection,

its a fact protection is allready in place and game company's are using grey areas and loopholes to get around them.

 

take this example. how would you feel if lets say your child is able to register a account and bet money on a random event and spent lets say 30.00, then month after he spend 50.00 for the next fad, when you look you relies the payment method was in your name, but the account is in the name of your child? parents fault? you thought it was just some game and you was paying for a subscription like most other games,

 

you didn't know some random pay to spin game using real money was in the game.

 

there is really no difference between going into a casino and paying for chips to place bets and playing a video game and buying a virtual chip to spend on a bet, loads of company's already do this legally and within the law, they do not take advantage of grey areas and try to get away with it before everyone catches up. and it should not be even thought about has central to f2p business model.

 

If the child is too young I'd monitor the games they play. If the child was old enough to know what they are doing I'd punish them. Same as if they started smoking, or drinking.

My point is, is that there are things in life that can tempt anyone, we see it everywhere. But you can't stop people enjoying them because someone somewhere has an addictive personality. Lockboxes make money. People want the shineys inside and are willing to pay. It's gonna happewn. People will have to get used to it, or ignore them, or stop playing. That's the reality.

Edited October 13, 2012 by utio

[kooffee]

If the child is too young I'd monitor the games they play. If the child was old enough to know what they are doing I'd punish them. Same as if they started smoking, or drinking.

 

prevention is why we have laws to govern minimum age. and "what they are doing" has been reshaped, painted and given a new name, so maybe they don't know wht they are doing. kinda like someone developing a addiction?

 

noone is on about stopping, what people are saying is we have minimum age laws for a reason. and that reason isn't because we want to stop people having fun or because we just don't like it so you can't play it too. the reason is because younger minds are more open to addiction, and addiction not only effects the user but the others around the user and society in general.

Edited October 13, 2012 by kooffee

[utio]

prevention is why we have laws to govern minimum age. and "what they are doing" has been reshaped, painted and given a new name, so maybe they don't know wht they are doing. kinda like someone developing a addiction?

 

noone is on about stopping, what people are saying is we have minimum age laws for a reason. and that reason isn't because we want to stop people having fun or because we just don't like it so you can't play it too. the reason is because younger minds are more open to addiction, and addiction not only effects the user but the others around the user and society in general.

 

I'm not against protecting the young. But what would you suggest? Upping the age limit? That won't work, unless parents control their kids, and not let them play whatever they like. What can be done to stop someone buying a lockbox if there is no one in the home willing to monitor?

Edited October 13, 2012 by utio

[Rafaman]

Wow... this really is a debate. But I think I'm missing something here.... because I really don't see why this a big deal at all.

 

First and foremost. I don't care what F2P'ers do with their money. They can buy cartel coins, keys to lock boxes, etc. doesn't matter to me. It's their money and their choice.

 

As a long standing sub who plans to continue I will have a wealth of cartel coins as well as a monthly stipend to spend as I see fit. And that is the important thing. I will have an income of Cartel coins for being a sub which I can spend on whatever I want including but not limited to a lock box key (assuming they are in the game). I will not feel the lesser because I have to use Cartel coins. It is totally my choice. I can hoard my income to get something shiny or I can take my chances. Either way, it is up to me... and I will still have an income in Cartel coins for being a sub as well as unfettered or restricted access. No issues here.

[Setsugetsuka]

Wow... this really is a debate. But I think I'm missing something here.... because I really don't see why this a big deal at all.

 

First and foremost. I don't care what F2P'ers do with their money. They can buy cartel coins, keys to lock boxes, etc. doesn't matter to me. It's their money and their choice.

 

As a long standing sub who plans to continue I will have a wealth of cartel coins as well as a monthly stipend to spend as I see fit. And that is the important thing. I will have an income of Cartel coins for being a sub which I can spend on whatever I want including but not limited to a lock box key (assuming they are in the game). I will not feel the lesser because I have to use Cartel coins. It is totally my choice. I can hoard my income to get something shiny or I can take my chances. Either way, it is up to me... and I will still have an income in Cartel coins for being a sub as well as unfettered or restricted access. No issues here.

 

The amount you get, won't be worth much, trust me. EA = Wants your money.

[kooffee]

Or buying a pack of Magic the Gathering cards . ^^

 

 

a important thing i want to mention on this.

 

When you buy a set of cards, you buy a set of cards, yes the face value of the cards are random but your getting a set of cards none the less.

 

A lockbox is random, you have no idea what is in the box it could be a nice shiny item you WANT or a med pack that you Don't,

 

if i had 1 box with a car key in it and a 2nd with a lemon and i charged people money to take the chance and pick a box i would be breaking the law by not having the correct licence.

money is only allowed on games of skill according to UK law, ( 2 people can play for money in a game of darts for example but for someone outside the game it would not be allowed and would require a licence)

anything that involves "chance" or 3rd party is gambling.

 

i think thats all the ways i'm able to describe gambling..lol

[utio]

I NEVER stated ANYTHING about gambling/addiction or anything of the like, I object to players being dimed to death, period........please read before putting your words out there........

 

Typical "I'm alright jack stuff the rest".........clearly needs to grow up and smell what hes shovelin, is a reply to a post of mine on page 7. I know it's a lot to do, and you may have to do more reading, but try to keep up with what you're replying to in future, ok?

Players will not be forced to spend a penny on these boxes. You saying they will, that there will be pay to win stuff in them, is going against what the devs have said. You are the one who needs to go do some reading, not I.

[Redat]

Typical "I'm alright jack stuff the rest".........clearly needs to grow up and smell what hes shovelin, is a reply to a post of mine on page 7. I know it's a lot to do, and you may have to do more reading, but try to keep up with what you're replying to in future, ok?

Players will not be forced to spend a penny on these boxes. You saying they will, that there will be pay to win stuff in them, is going against what the devs have said. You are the one who needs to go do some reading, not I.

 

you OBVIOUSLY did not read MY posts well enough, I commented on the fact STO devs said the exact same thing, lo and behold a little while later, complete u turn.......Also I made these posts in relation to the pay2win scenario, get a grip mate, dont get the hump because you have been proven wrong, suck it up.....

[utio]

you OBVIOUSLY did not read MY posts well enough, I commented on the fact STO devs said the exact same thing, lo and behold a little while later, complete u turn.......Also I made these posts in relation to the pay2win scenario, get a grip mate, dont get the hump because you have been proven wrong, suck it up.....

 

Ummm I don't know what to say. I'm not going to quote my post and your reply because clearly you have no idea what you've been replying to lol. You could go to page 7 and read it again if you like.

I can't see the point in carrying on this debate with you really. Firstly you say that swtor will have lockboxes with pay to win items in them, which isn't the case. Then you reply to a post I made concerning people's addiction problems, and then said you were talking about sto, which I didn't mention in that post. Bewildering:/ and now you say I've been proven wrong, when you're the one making stuff up about what's going in lockboxes lol.

[Soljin]

You know if the Lockboxes have Unique Skins you cannot get anywhere else then Its a Scam and BW should suffer for being scam artisits...If they are Skins that have a specific color scheme...I can live with that.

 

Basically If they blew resources on making gear for these boxes that are unique and More specifically the "Star Warsy" gear everyone has been asking for...and now you have to buy boxes to get it, after so many people hanging tough with this game after their poor execution and performance thus far...Its jut stright Money grubbing greedy customer gouging Crap that I wont support.

 

If they want to put some Different color schemes on gear you can get elsewhere..then fine. With the Horrid gear in the game now...and the lack of turning over anything new in quite some time I have a bad feeling the F2P Store is going to have all that time and resources on gear development on display with a price tag next to it...Meanwhile we have been paying for them to do it and got nothing but poorly tested buggy content releases, and really poorly chosen Class blance changes.......BW you have been warned!

[ZORG]

So ban all forms of gambling because parents can't be parents? Or because there's a guy round the corner who can't stop spending money on the lottery?

Ban all cigarettes? Smoking addiction.

Ban all alcohol? Alcoholism.

Ban fairground games, sticker albums, scratch cards, credit cards?

Yes there are people who have a problem, but that's not everyone else's fault. The biggest annoyance to me in this is the kids need to be protected from lockboxes argument. What about the violence in this game? Torture? Is that ok for young impressionable minds?

 

I have been making the parental control argument since beta. Everyone wanted SGRA I said ok as long as the parent could block it. I will also say that BIOWARE needs to make it clear to credit card holders who pay for this game about the cash shop. They need to enable a method of blocking all purchases totally and also the ability to set a monthly allowance that DOES NOT carry over to the next month.

 

The last thing I want is a credit card bill of 200 bucks or more cause my kid is an impulse buyer.

 

When free to play hits there needs to be an agreement presented that only the Credit card holder can complete and agree to. There also should be an option for people under 18 to goto wawa or 7-11 or gamestop to buy gameshop cards like you can with xboxlive. This way my kid can use his allowance if he wants to put credit onto his own toons. When it runs out its out period.....

Edited October 13, 2012 by ZORG

[chuixupu]

a important thing i want to mention on this.

 

When you buy a set of cards, you buy a set of cards, yes the face value of the cards are random but your getting a set of cards none the less.

 

A lockbox is random, you have no idea what is in the box it could be a nice shiny item you WANT or a med pack that you Don't,

 

So if, let's say, they make it so that they advertise that a lockbox will definitely contain a certain set of items (experience boost + stims + medpacks etc..) and also a chance to get something extra, would that not be the same thing as buying the cards?

[ZORG]

So if, let's say, they make it so that they advertise that a lockbox will definitely contain a certain set of items (experience boost + stims + medpacks etc..) and also a chance to get something extra, would that not be the same thing as buying the cards?

 

Yes this is the same thing Guildwars 2 does but the boxes are named to identify whats in them.. Like booster pack ect. These are filled with consumables that boost run speed xp gain crafting ability/xp gain ect. There is NO armor in it. They also have STREET casual social gear you cannot use it while in a fight the game will swap you to your normal armor automaticly if you get in a fight. The roleplayers love it though they hang out sit at camp fires or castle lobbys and shoot the breeze in custom outfits. I would also welcome dropped and purchasable Armor dyes. currently I have encountered 3 levels of dyes common uncommon and rare. I really think bioware aught to take cues from GW2 in this area. At least for armor dyes. It costs me nothing to recolor my gear once i have gotten the dye.

[Mithros]

That's exactly my damn point. Meaning that they're going to eventually put things in there that people HAVE to buy to have an edge, because from what we've seen so far, instead of make the game worth the subscription, they just want a cash cow, so they're going to do whatever they can to milk you, they have thrown integrity out of the window.

 

And? I can quit the game when I want to, but until they decide to start charging extra for must-have items, and by extra I mean more than what they give subbers in terms of free coins, then it doesn't really matter.

 

How do you ever bring yourself to play any game, seeing as how any of them could do something that you do not like at some point in the future?

 

Are they doing it now? No. So why not stick with that instead of crying about a hundred things that they could possibly do in the future.

 

Er what? Either its FTP or it isnt..........there is no middle ground. Subbers will still have to pay for stuff from the store despite being "given" a poultry amount of currency..........IF subbers were given ALL content in the store inclusive in thier sub then fair play, but that will not be the case will it? The game IS going FTP with a sub option JUST LIKE OTHERS DO, where they offer "Gold" membership where u pay monthly...............ITS STILL FTP!! Go check your facts and the MANY examples out there.

 

A 'poultry' amount of currency? What does that do? Let me buy a pet chicken?

 

Wow... The store will contain more things than a subber can get with their monthly allotment of cartel coins. So?

 

Once again, unless it is stuff that you have to have rather than merely things that you might like to have, then it doesn't matter.

 

And if you see some thing(s) that you want to have (want, not need, but want. There is a difference) and do not have enough of the Cartel coins, you can save them up and get the item next month.

 

I know. Saving money. Crazy concept, but every day I do not buy things that I want because I decide that I would rather do other things with my money, including saving it up for a bigger purchase later.

 

a important thing i want to mention on this.

 

When you buy a set of cards, you buy a set of cards, yes the face value of the cards are random but your getting a set of cards none the less.

 

A lockbox is random, you have no idea what is in the box it could be a nice shiny item you WANT or a med pack that you Don't,

 

Which is exactly like that pack of cards.

 

You buy a pack of Magic or sports cards and you get cards. Are you guaranteed to get the most valuable cards? Are you guaranteed to get the cards that you want? No, but you will get the cards.

 

You buy a lockbox you will get what is in the lockbox. Is it what you wanted? Maybe not, but it contained stuff.

 

You buy the cards, you get cards.

You buy a lockbox of stuff, you get stuff.

 

Doesn't make it different that you got some consumables when you wanted a specific pair of boots.

That guy that bought the cards wanted superstars and got benchwarmers.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Mithros

[kooffee]

Which is exactly like that pack of cards.

 

You buy a pack of Magic or sports cards and you get cards. Are you guaranteed to get the most valuable cards? Are you guaranteed to get the cards that you want? No, but you will get the cards.

 

You buy a lockbox you will get what is in the lockbox. Is it what you wanted? Maybe not, but it contained stuff.

 

You buy the cards, you get cards.

You buy a lockbox of stuff, you get stuff.

 

Doesn't make it different that you got some consumables when you wanted a specific pair of boots.

That guy that bought the cards wanted superstars and got benchwarmers.

 

 

huh? u buy a packet of cards and you get a packet of cards regardless what face value in the pack, you still purchase a packet.

 

U get a lockbox and you have no idea what your getting, i am not going to get the same everytime i purchase a lockbox....

 

Regardless what is printed on a card, it is still a card. collectable maybe but a card none the less.

 

a lock box is a virtual container "which may contain a rare item"

 

how would u feel if u bought a packet of your cards and released when you get home that packet is empty with no cards... or perhaps it contained no cards and had a packet of mints with a "sorry try again" note

 

and its only after printing a card is considered rare and starts to have a monetary value.

Edited October 13, 2012 by kooffee