no hk51 for solo players

[Majedron]

Point is each person has there own play style, I'm not opposed to grouping if I know the people but blind groups forget it. When you force a player to do something they are not inclined to do you piss them off when you piss them off they drop there sub. Bad business to force your player base to play the way you want them to and not allow them to play how they wish.

[Quraswren]

I still don't understand and no one has explained; all the other companions are gotten through the class story quest lines which are basically solo. Why the sudden change? Is this what we can expect from all new companions added? Does anyone actually use companions in hardmodes? Aren't companions part of the story, not the optional group content?

 

The original companions are part of your class story. Any companion after that is just extra content and have very little to do if anything at all with your class story. You don't even have to do the HK quest at all if you dont want to unlike your class story.

 

It's content you can do should you want to or skip. Pretty much like FP or operations or PVP. You can skip HK if you want but you are going to miss out on something if you do.

 

Yes, I have well geared compansions on my main and they have DPS, and tanked many FP's and H4's just cause we wanted to see if it could be done. Yes, it can.

 

 

Point is each person has there own play style, I'm not opposed to grouping if I know the people but blind groups forget it. When you force a player to do something they are not inclined to do you piss them off when you piss them off they drop there sub. Bad business to force your player base to play the way you want them to and not allow them to play how they wish.

 

Well it's hard to join an MMORPG and not group at all or better yet, expect to not group unless it's someone you know. I don't like being forced to run operations for the best gear and relying on 7 or 15 others but if I want the gear It's a means to an end. Good thing it's fun on top of all that.

 

Then you have those that hate PVP but some of the gear is really nice. I bet they hate being forced to PVP for that gear. Should just have that gear mailed to them. Like someone said in previous posts, he likes to play the GTN and the mailbox. I'm sure he would would just like his end game gear mailed to him. It's solo play after all.

 

You are not forced to get HK. You get him cause you want to and to do the steps it takes to get him. Bad business would be making it to easy to get and soloable.

[Revanchis]

Agreed, it seems strange to entice the more relaxed players to go into a PVP area and do a HM FP to get a companion. Personally I think they should stick to awarding gear or whatever for those hardmode missions, and keep story content along the story path. It makes about as much sense as getting PVP gear from a raid.

 

The original companions are part of your class story. Any companion after that is just extra content and have very little to do if anything at all with your class story. You don't even have to do the HK quest at all if you dont want to unlike your class story.

 

It's content you can do should you want to or skip. Pretty much like FP or operations or PVP. You can skip HK if you want but you are going to miss out on something if you do.

 

Yes, I have well geared compansions on my main and they have DPS, and tanked many FP's and H4's just cause we wanted to see if it could be done. Yes, it can.

 

 

 

 

Well it's hard to join an MMORPG and not group at all or better yet, expect to not group unless it's someone you know. I don't like being forced to run operations for the best gear and relying on 7 or 15 others but if I want the gear It's a means to an end. Good thing it's fun on top of all that.

 

Then you have those that hate PVP but some of the gear is really nice. I bet they hate being forced to PVP for that gear. Should just have that gear mailed to them. Like someone said in previous posts, he likes to play the GTN and the mailbox. I'm sure he would would just like his end game gear mailed to him. It's solo play after all.

 

You are not forced to get HK. You get him cause you want to and to do the steps it takes to get him. Bad business would be making it to easy to get and soloable.

 

How exactly is it bad business to make it easy to get him. The players who want the challenges still have them, and they have their gear treadmill. Having actual content be difficult to obtain just means that most people won't see it. Which I doubt will draw many customers.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Revanchis
Adding a quote

[DarthSylar]

Actually no... I use my Marauder and his healer companion and I can solo every daily quest they give me... this includes End of Torvix.

 

But what does your gear look like? You may be able to now but I doubt you could with the fresh 50 purples that are obtainable without grouping.

[DarthSylar]

Riddle me this Batman ...

 

Why do we have to "group" to get a reward that is ONLY usable for SOLO content?

 

Just sayin'.

 

((If you've actually read this thread (as in all the posts) you know where I stand on this issue and why. I will leave it as an exercise of the reader to do the research. ))

 

Because soloers aren't the only ones who enjoy solo content and because at the end of the day forcing eberyone to do 1 HM FP, isn't that big a deal. Add to that the crafting bonus on HK-51 appeals to anybody who crafts including end game crafters.

[Lostpenguins]

But what does your gear look like? You may be able to now but I doubt you could with the fresh 50 purples that are obtainable without grouping.

No I was just contradicting the person that said you can't do all the daily quests solo because you can. I really outgear the daily quest content. So if someone never groups up they shouldn't have:

WH Relics

Set Bonus Shells

 

Still, a solo player can earn lots of credits w/out grouping with anyone and then can buy said ilvl 61-63 items. So, a solo player could be walking around in all lvl 63 purples BiS if they had the cash... just no shell bonuses since the only way to get the shells is to do some sort of group content.

 

And yes, you can basically buy anything in this game. There's already 2 guys on the Imp Fleet on my server selling i63 Might 27 Hilts. Go go BW failing at preventing people from RE'ing crafted items.

[Lostpenguins]

It follows the spirit of what companions were designed to be and do in this game......COMPANIONS, not trophies for achievement.

It may follow the spirit of what companions do, but it doesn't follow the spirit of the game. The spirit of an MMO is to interact with others. If you treat this game like a single player RPG you're missing out on so much content this game is giving. HK-51 is one of those things. All the solo-players are fine with missing out on things like social points, certain pets, certain vanity items, certain mounts, certain gear, certain titles, certain datacrons, but they drew the line at a companion. Sorry, but drawing a line in the sand where you think it should be drawn doesn't hold much weight. You may want the line to stop at companions, but just because doesn't, doesn't mean this game is unfair. The main person who's holding you back from getting HK-51 is you.

[Revanchis]

It may follow the spirit of what companions do, but it doesn't follow the spirit of the game. The spirit of an MMO is to interact with others. If you treat this game like a single player RPG you're missing out on so much content this game is giving. HK-51 is one of those things. All the solo-players are fine with missing out on things like social points, certain pets, certain vanity items, certain mounts, certain gear, certain titles, certain datacrons, but they drew the line at a companion. Sorry, but drawing a line in the sand where you think it should be drawn doesn't hold much weight. You may want the line to stop at companions, but just because doesn't, doesn't mean this game is unfair. The main person who's holding you back from getting HK-51 is you.

 

All that other stuff is just for looks. They're drawing the line at story content.

 

Personally I'm going to be doing the quest with a small group of friends, but I doubt I'd do it otherwise, and I know I won't be doing any Ops. Thank the gods that that's not one of the required areas. I play the game as a co-op RPG, and it makes a fine one, especially when there are just enough people to make a second instance, but nobody else on the second one.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Revanchis
Adding

[Kendaric]

It may follow the spirit of what companions do, but it doesn't follow the spirit of the game. The spirit of an MMO is to interact with others. If you treat this game like a single player RPG you're missing out on so much content this game is giving. HK-51 is one of those things. All the solo-players are fine with missing out on things like social points, certain pets, certain vanity items, certain mounts, certain gear, certain titles, certain datacrons, but they drew the line at a companion. Sorry, but drawing a line in the sand where you think it should be drawn doesn't hold much weight. You may want the line to stop at companions, but just because doesn't, doesn't mean this game is unfair. The main person who's holding you back from getting HK-51 is you.

 

The question is where do we draw the line then?

Having to do an Ops to unlock the Cathar species or the Makeb content once they become available? I can safely say that would make a lot of story players quit.

 

Any form of story content needs to be accessible without doing areas meant for endgame gear progression (HM flashpoints, Ops) or PvP. It doesn't necessarily have to be soloable of course, but that can be solved by having H2 or H4 areas as part of the quest chain.

Endgame gear progression areas should only be needed by those who take part in that part of the game, the same goes for PvP. And think about it... do you really want to have a group member who doesn't really care about the things they're doing? Or who's spec isn't really useful for the content?

[Lostpenguins]

All that other stuff is just for looks. They're drawing the line at story content.

 

Personally I'm going to be doing the quest with a small group of friends, but I doubt I'd do it otherwise, and I know I won't be doing any Ops. Thank the gods that that's not one of the required areas. I play the game as a co-op RPG, and it makes a fine one, especially when there are just enough people to make a second instance, but nobody else on the second one.

What do you mean "Story Content"? You're saying that killing a certain someone in False Emp isn't "Story Content"? You're telling me seeing a certain familiar npc who is now a bad guy in Foundry and False Emp isn't "Story Content"? You're telling me that fighting the Hutts in KP, saving the Gree from TFB... none of that is "Story Content"? I'm pretty sure I got Codex's and lengthy conversations during my Operations and Flashpoints... that sounds like "Story Content" to me.

 

So the people upset are just drawing yet another line in the sand at what they consider "Story Content". False Emp has more story behind it, than HK-51. False Emp you deal with the main bad guy while leveling, you have a story quest line on Ilum, then you have 2 FP's that deal with it... one is the follow-up to the second. Sounds like a story line to me... also sounds like you'd probably need a group to complete it. Where's the solo player outrage there?

[Khevar]

The question is where do we draw the line then?

Having to do an Ops to unlock the Cathar species or the Makeb content once they become available? I can safely say that would make a lot of story players quit.

 

...

I agree, this would be extreme.

 

However, I still feel that

 

1) One (or two) flashpoint is not a big deal, even for the solo-player

2) It encourages the solo players who haven't yet tried flashpoints to give it a try, potentially increasing the lifespan of the game

Edited October 23, 2012 by Khevar

[Revanchis]

What do you mean "Story Content"? You're saying that killing a certain someone in False Emp isn't "Story Content"? You're telling me seeing a certain familiar npc who is now a bad guy in Foundry and False Emp isn't "Story Content"? You're telling me that fighting the Hutts in KP, saving the Gree from TFB... none of that is "Story Content"? I'm pretty sure I got Codex's and lengthy conversations during my Operations and Flashpoints... that sounds like "Story Content" to me.

 

So the people upset are just drawing yet another line in the sand at what they consider "Story Content". False Emp has more story behind it, than HK-51. False Emp you deal with the main bad guy while leveling, you have a story quest line on Ilum, then you have 2 FP's that deal with it... one is the follow-up to the second. Sounds like a story line to me... also sounds like you'd probably need a group to complete it. Where's the solo player outrage there?

 

But then again, there's no need to play those in HM. What they should have done was require you to play those FPs in NM. I'm sure there wouldn't be any outrage then.

 

I have no problems with SM, although I heavily dislike the idea of having eight people in a team. That's simply too many people.

[Lostpenguins]

The question is where do we draw the line then?

Having to do an Ops to unlock the Cathar species or the Makeb content once they become available? I can safely say that would make a lot of story players quit.

 

Any form of story content needs to be accessible without doing areas meant for endgame gear progression (HM flashpoints, Ops) or PvP. It doesn't necessarily have to be soloable of course, but that can be solved by having H2 or H4 areas as part of the quest chain.

Endgame gear progression areas should only be needed by those who take part in that part of the game, the same goes for PvP. And think about it... do you really want to have a group member who doesn't really care about the things they're doing? Or who's spec isn't really useful for the content?

As someone else just pointed out, HM FPs =/= Ops. Also, HM FP's are both just FP's on harder difficulty. But solo players don't want to have to do any FP's. So wanting all story content outside of any group activity is already negated as their's story content found in both FP's and Ops that you don't get to see if you're sitting there as a single player.

 

As for your response about having people who might be inept in how they're playing or their builds... well, that's just insulting to solo players isn't it? It sounds to me like you're trying to argue that these people are so bad that they're going to be virtually useless in a FP. If that's the case, then don't worry, those bad solo players won't even make it past a Heroic 2+ solo.

[Lostpenguins]

But then again, there's no need to play those in HM. What they should have done was require you to play those FPs in NM. I'm sure there wouldn't be any outrage then.

 

I have no problems with SM, although I heavily dislike the idea of having eight people in a team. That's simply too many people.

Now you're splitting hairs. The people complaining are saying they shouldn't be forced to do ANY group activity as they are solo players. You're saying that if it was Normal Mode FP's it would be okay. That to me, is just another line drawn in the sand and not really the message that solo players have been trying to say. They want to do things on their own w/out needing anyone else. This, to them, is their version of KOTOR 3 so it's really a Single Player RPG and there's really no multi-player cooperation in terms of grouping up. Thus no FP's, no Ops, etc. They aren't complaining that it's a HM FP. They're complaining that, to do it, they will have to group up with others to complete the content, thus ruining their "solo experience".

[Urael]

1) One (or two) flashpoint is not a big deal, even for the solo-player

2) It encourages the solo players who haven't yet tried flashpoints to give it a try, potentially increasing the lifespan of the game

 

Maybe so. But, after YEARS of dealing with people that where their posteriors and head wear in PUGs have force many ( myself included ) to NOT PUG EVER. If I group it is only with Guildies or friends ( irl and online) in the games I play. While my WoW guilds have tons of activity and people to group with, my SWTOR guilds just don't for the most part. Many people have left.

 

So one day when I grind my way up to the right iLevel I will try to do the HM solo. If I win great! If I loose oh well wait until level 55 and or find a new guild ( which I am actively doing ).

[Kendaric]

As someone else just pointed out, HM FPs =/= Ops. Also, HM FP's are both just FP's on harder difficulty. But solo players don't want to have to do any FP's. So wanting all story content outside of any group activity is already negated as their's story content found in both FP's and Ops that you don't get to see if you're sitting there as a single player.

 

As for your response about having people who might be inept in how they're playing or their builds... well, that's just insulting to solo players isn't it? It sounds to me like you're trying to argue that these people are so bad that they're going to be virtually useless in a FP. If that's the case, then don't worry, those bad solo players won't even make it past a Heroic 2+ solo.

 

Now you're putting words into my mouths...

It has nothing to do with being inept, but I can get away with a suboptimal built character (like going hybrid in two skill trees) in most of the normal content. This, however, isn't the case with hardmodes as they aren't meant for the "casual" players and require people to play a "correct" spec unless they are completely overgeared.

 

And no, I can't solo a level 50 heroic 2+ either (mainly due to not having the gear to do it as I don't do endgame stuff apart from a couple of dailies).

 

Making the flashpoint requirement storymode for both flashpoints would solve the issue for a lot of people, admittedly not for the pure solo players who won't group no matter what. An added bonus would be the incentive to actually do a storymode flashpoint. Hardmodes already have their own incentive by being part of the gear progression for anyone so inclined.

[Darka]

Coming to play a game because you wanted something else but knowingly were not getting it when you played, then complaining and demanding because of it leaves no one to blame but yourself

Its like wanting NFL13, then playing NHL 13 then demanding EA add the Packers to the game and complaining when they dont

 

But then again this is the TOR forums...

[Urael]

What do you mean "Story Content"?

 

While it is well established that EAware views pretty much everything as "story", the "casual" solo contingent of players views "Story" as "personal story" and "planet story" only.

 

I can see on the one hand why they would make someone due a FP or OP to get them "interested" and perhaps lead them to sub. But, I know there are people that will be upset by this if they don't want to participate in that content and just want the droid because they are KoTOR fans. Given that many FPs can be solo'd as we have discussed that requirement isn't that bad, even for a casual. The OP requirement is kinda over the top. While doable for "extreem" solo players ( at some point it "is" doable ), that is a lot of work to even be able to make an attempt even for dedicated players.

 

It has been said over and over ... MMORPGs are about "grouping". And it has been retorted yes on the one hand and no because the "average" MMORPG gamer has changed in demographic. EAware should really just dumb down the OP requirement to an "extreem" soloable level FP. Still keeping the option to engage in group play (but with less overhead) and making it an awsome example of "extreem" solo content.

 

Final note. If you have ever been a deadicated Hunter in WoW then you are probably into "extreem" solo. So, you know what I mean by that type of gaming. There are other classes in WoW that can do it also, it just seems to be big with the Hunter community. One thing you have to admit about SWTOR, everyone is pretty much a "Hunter".

 

[Urael]

Coming to play a game because you wanted something else but knowingly were not getting it when you played, then complaining and demanding because of it leaves no one to blame but yourself

Its like wanting NFL13, then playing NHL 13 then demanding EA add the Packers to the game and complaining when they dont

 

But then again this is the TOR forums...

 

Commenting with a closed mind is much the same.

 

There are more than "one type" of MMORPG gamer nowadays. SWTOR needs all the help it can get right now and really shouldn't alienate any more of their customers (looks at the PvP community as well as "casual solo") and potential customers if they want to stay open.

[Lostpenguins]

Making the flashpoint requirement storymode for both flashpoints would solve the issue for a lot of people, admittedly not for the pure solo players who won't group no matter what.

That's what this thread is about: the people who are upset feel they have to break their vow of strictly solo play to get a companion. You're saying that it shouldn't require to do a HM FP, so that's not really relevant to the discussion. I could care less if the content was done via HM's, SM's, Heroic Quests, or solo-play. I'm just on the side of the fence telling solo players they can't have everything the way they want it because they decide to play the game as a single player RPG when it's an MMO.

[Urael]

That's what this thread is about: the people who are upset feel they have to break their vow of strictly solo play to get a companion. You're saying that it shouldn't require to do a HM FP, so that's not really relevant to the discussion. I could care less if the content was done via HM's, SM's, Heroic Quests, or solo-play. I'm just on the side of the fence telling solo players they can't have everything the way they want it because they decide to play the game as a single player RPG when it's an MMO.

 

Again, the average MMORPG player is not hardcore like you and or has experience more than enough "group" play with people that are just jerks so we shy away from that content so we can actually, you know, enjoy our "game".

[Lostpenguins]

While it is well established that EAware views pretty much everything as "story", the "casual" solo contingent of players views "Story" as "personal story" and "planet story" only.

 

I can see on the one hand why they would make someone due a FP or OP to get them "interested" and perhaps lead them to sub. But, I know there are people that will be upset by this if they don't want to participate in that content and just want the droid because they are KoTOR fans. Given that many FPs can be solo'd as we have discussed that requirement isn't that bad, even for a casual. The OP requirement is kinda over the top. While doable for "extreem" solo players ( at some point it "is" doable ), that is a lot of work to even be able to make an attempt even for dedicated players.

 

It has been said over and over ... MMORPGs are about "grouping". And it has been retorted yes on the one hand and no because the "average" MMORPG gamer has changed in demographic. EAware should really just dumb down the OP requirement to an "extreem" soloable level FP. Still keeping the option to engage in group play (but with less overhead) and making it an awsome example of "extreem" solo content.

 

Final note. If you have ever been a deadicated Hunter in WoW then you are probably into "extreem" solo. So, you know what I mean by that type of gaming. There are other classes in WoW that can do it also, it just seems to be big with the Hunter community. One thing you have to admit about SWTOR, everyone is pretty much a "Hunter".

 

Too many things you said here to disagree with (plus, you seem to like to argue just for the sake of arguing) so I'll only touch on a few:

1) That's fine that people feel HK-51 is personal storyline since he's your personal companion. That's how they feel, but that's not the way it is. Deal with it. I haven't seen one comment from BW to allude to the fact they wanted HK-51 to be soloable content to obtain him. It's not like BW is saying "we want classes to be balance in DPS" and then people see a 25% disparity and BW just stays mum. That issue would be completely contradictory to what they said. You can infer and imply all you want, but there's nothing directly stated by BW that they want HK-51 to be soloable content. That's really the end of it.

2) Please don't bring hunters into this. You can't compare for the main reason that you bring your pets into Raids and Operations... it's factored into your DPS when balancing numbers. Companions don't for ToR. You seem to want to solo content for the challenge. Plus, hunters were so good at soloing beyond just the fact that they had a pet. The biggest reasons you can solo anything is your ability to avoid damage or heal through it. Hunters had speed buffs and with all of their snares they could effectively kite mobs until they died. Good luck telling a marauder that he can kite something while DPS'ing... yeah... so much like a WoW Hunter (not).

[Lostpenguins]

Again, the average MMORPG player is not hardcore like you and or has experience more than enough "group" play with people that are just jerks so we shy away from that content so we can actually, you know, enjoy our "game".

Because you're trying to enjoy the game your way and not the way the game is designed. You keep avoiding great examples of people trying to put it into analogies of what solo players are complaining about in terms of MMO's (my last example is giving me all my daily comms and money in the mail so that I don't have to do them as I don't find them "fun"). And you can avoid group play all you want, but that doesn't mean that just because you CHOOSE to avoid group play means that they should make things available to you just to cater to you. Wrong game, wrong genre.

 

Keep arguing all you want about the "average MMORPG player". I disagree with that, and apparently, so does BW. If they wanted to cater to solo players because they are such a large dynamic, then they'd make HK-51 easily obtainable by solo players. They didn't, so obviously they disagree with you and agree with me.

 

/discussion

Edited October 23, 2012 by Lostpenguins

[Graydon]

Again, the average MMORPG player is not hardcore like you and or has experience more than enough "group" play with people that are just jerks so we shy away from that content so we can actually, you know, enjoy our "game".

 

Grouping up does not define one as a hardcore gamer.

 

Your whole "I only solo" argument is weak sauce.

 

It just happens, I only play one faction. Now I must roll a character on a different faction. That is so unfair and ridiculous, because I don't want to play on the other side.

 

See? Weak and lame.

[Urael]

Too many things you said here to disagree with (plus, you seem to like to argue just for the sake of arguing) so I'll only touch on a few:

1) That's fine that people feel HK-51 is personal storyline since he's your personal companion. That's how they feel, but that's not the way it is. Deal with it. I haven't seen one comment from BW to allude to the fact they wanted HK-51 to be soloable content to obtain him. It's not like BW is saying "we want classes to be balance in DPS" and then people see a 25% disparity and BW just stays mum. That issue would be completely contradictory to what they said. You can infer and imply all you want, but there's nothing directly stated by BW that they want HK-51 to be soloable content. That's really the end of it.

 

I think you and those that think like you have to "deal" with the FACT that the gaming community has changed. Do *I* like it? Meh ... I can "deal" with it. I "used" to be "hardcore" about grouping. I did my time in EQ as a healer with no target of target and looking at a dang book. I did my time "healing" in CoX. I was DPS PvP in SWG and WoW. I have been both raider and PvPer. I have grouped with a bunch of people and over the years I have seen the "quality" of PUGs drop SIGNIFICANTLY. The level of "politeness" has dropped dramatically since MMORPGs have become more mainstream. This has made it so I just don't PUG anymore. It's not worth it. There are many who don't PUG for the same reason and don't want to "deal with it". Perhaps you could lead the charge and help change that perception?

 

Also again there are many in SWTOR that are only in SWTOR because of KoTOR. I would imagine most of those don't like to group let alone "extreem" solo. That is why the HM OP should be dropped down to more obtainable extreem solo H4. I don't want the "group requirement" completely taken out. That seems to be a good compromise point. Still will be "hard" to solo for most so the "spirit" of the group requirement is kept with a "nod" to someone that wants to attempt it solo (which like I said I will prolly attempt regardless for the fun).

 

2) Please don't bring hunters into this. You can't compare for the main reason that you bring your pets into Raids and Operations... it's factored into your DPS when balancing numbers. Companions don't for ToR. You seem to want to solo content for the challenge. Plus, hunters were so good at soloing beyond just the fact that they had a pet. The biggest reasons you can solo anything is your ability to avoid damage or heal through it. Hunters had speed buffs and with all of their snares they could effectively kite mobs until they died. Good luck telling a marauder that he can kite something while DPS'ing... yeah... so much like a WoW Hunter (not).

 

Given that *I* don't Raid in SWTOR I was not coming from it from that perspective. *I* am coming from it from the solo perspective only. From that perspective all classes pretty much play like hunters and the DPS numbers are balanced to factor in your companion ( why do you think there are so many "group pulls"). Even Mauraders can "kite". You have a self heal in the right spec plus some damage mitigation. You have to be careful but it is doable. Beside Maruaders put out so much DPS kiting isn't really necessary. Now my sniper he kites.