Tanking Zorn and Toth

[BlownSi]

Had my first foray into SM Denova as a Jugg tank tonight. i was having a really hard time with aggro and it seemed there was nothing I could do to keep the boss on me. I have not had a problem in any of the other HM Fp or Ops so I am just at a loss. We ended up bringing another PT tank and this problem did not exist.

 

So my question is; am I just missing something?

[KVork]

Nope, you are just juggernaut tank and your dps i pathetic, but there are workarounds.

Put your guards on 2 best dps, they will steal aggro (optionally guard sorc healer, his aoe heals will deliver tons of threat)

 

If you are biochem , use power adrenal insetad of armor one in this fight. If you are not biochem, swap one of your relics for on use power one.

 

When I tank it , especialy on HM I open with throw&charge (power adrenal or power on use relic) -, smash or sunder for armor red, Crushing,backhand, ravage, scream, enrage and vicious slashes untill i am out of rage, then aoe taunt since another boss should be far away now, another words max burst on power adrenal as opener, followed by taunt (IMPORTANT< do not burn single target taunt, you will need it any moment now, use aoe taunt to boost aggro in this fight).

 

If you keep it to first swap you are good, after that cross-taunting bosses by both tanks, gets them enormous threat boost and if not for dps need you could basicly just taunt on swap and then stay put and read newspaper while raid is killing bosses.

 

Hope I helped.

 

PS- crucial , use taunt after burst, never in the beggining.

Edited September 17, 2012 by KVork

[BlownSi]

Nope, you are just juggernaut tank and your dps i pathetic, but there are workarounds.

Put your guards on 2 best dps, they will steal aggro (optionally guard sorc healer, his aoe heals will deliver tons of threat)

 

If you are biochem , use power adrenal insetad of armor one in this fight. If you are not biochem, swap one of your relics for on use power one.

 

When I tank it , especialy on HM I open with throw&charge (power adrenal or power on use relic) -, smash or sunder for armor red, Crushing,backhand, ravage, scream, enrage and vicious slashes untill i am out of rage, then aoe taunt since another boss should be far away now, another words max burst on power adrenal as opener, followed by taunt (IMPORTANT< do not burn single target taunt, you will need it any moment now, use aoe taunt to boost aggro in this fight).

 

If you keep it to first swap you are good, after that cross-taunting bosses by both tanks, gets them enormous threat boost and if not for dps need you could basicly just taunt on swap and then stay put and read newspaper while raid is killing bosses.

 

Hope I helped.

 

PS- crucial , use taunt after burst, never in the beggining.

 

Thanks for the info. I did some searching and reading last night after posting this and did find info about Jugg/Guardian threat generation, or lack there of so to speak. From what you are telling me, my rotation is very close to what you are saying, so I will make the one or two adjustments and see how that works. I know part of it was my rotation and timing of the area taunt, but it just blew my mind how quickly the boss came off me. Never had this happen in anything else I have tanked.

 

I did not put two points into the improved smash talent in the rage tree, so I might change that up as well to help generate some more threat from smash. It just blows my mind that I can easily keep agro with my Sin tank in lesser gear. Anyway, thanks again for the info. I will post back once I put these changes to the test. /cheers.

[CitizenFry]

I occasionally have trouble with threat in this fight on my fully geared Vanguard tank. If you can figure out the timing for when you need to have your single taunt ready for tank swaps, you can engage in a bit of taunt boosting, and that will help a lot. Particularly AFTER the first tank swap and before the first berserk is a good time to get yourself some extra threat.

[JimmyTheCannon]

I haven't had this problem myself, and I don't throw in extra DPS or use my AOE taunt before someone pulls aggro. Perhaps the people you're running with are overgeared or are just throwing in too much up-front DPS?

[vandana_]

Some simple steps which will help you a lot:

 

1) Use fully augmented gear for extra power coming on tanking augments

2) Before the pull do a 3 sec. countdown, during that countdown use both power adrenal and power-on-use relic.

3) Rotation: Saber Throw -> Charge (Enrage while flying) -> Crushing Blow -> Backhand -> Taunt -> Ravage -> Force Scream. At this point the mob should be sticked to you. Use taunt when you know you won't be needing it for tank switches. CB, Backhand and Ravage on cooldown. You can use Force Choke for extra rage.

4) optional (if you are not hitting enrage): ask your dps to give you 2-3 seconds to build threat, ask them to use threat dumps on cooldown.

5) Put your guard on top 2 dps. Prioritize melee. Priortize classes that don't have a viable threat dump (powertechs and juggs).

6) Make sure that ranged dps don't stand in melee range (not likely in this particular fight anyway).

Edited September 25, 2012 by vandana_

[CitizenFry]

There is no such thing as "too much upfront DPS", and you shouldn't have to use power relics/adrenals either, if you are applying your taunts correctly. The one situation I've found that you can lose threat while otherwise doing things correctly is if you're using Enraged Defense as a cooldown. Be cognizant of that, and make sure both your taunts are ready before using ED.

 

edit to add: I think a better opening is

Saber Throw -> charge -> scream (get your Sonic Barrier up sooner) -> sunder -> (maybe taunt here) -> Ravage -> sunder

Edited September 25, 2012 by CitizenFry

[jasonthelamb]

Your best bet is to have the DPS hold up for a few seconds to get your aggro on the target... now do you start on Toth or Zorn? because melee DPS generates a little more threat than ranged, I would know as I'm a DPS jugg, and I need to bottleneck myself sometimes to not pull off.

 

Remind your DPS that threat dumps are their friend, but not to pop them too early, and to use them on cooldown.

[vandana_]

There is no such thing as "too much upfront DPS", and you shouldn't have to use power relics/adrenals either, if you are applying your taunts correctly. The one situation I've found that you can lose threat while otherwise doing things correctly is if you're using Enraged Defense as a cooldown. Be cognizant of that, and make sure both your taunts are ready before using ED.

 

edit to add: I think a better opening is

Saber Throw -> charge -> scream (get your Sonic Barrier up sooner) -> sunder -> (maybe taunt here) -> Ravage -> sunder

 

I completely forgot about saber throw - now edited and amended!

 

But I disagree with the rest of your post, especially with the proposed rotation. You use no threat generating abilities in the first 4 global cooldowns. Your advice is for someone who has no aggro problems and is focused on survivability (earlier sonic barrier). That survivability is not that important during pull when your healer is prepared for the incoming damage and it's all predictable. Those initial seconds are too important for someone having aggro issues to think about sonic barrier.

 

Also relic+adrenal helped me immensely in the beginning of our progression, especially before the boost to threat in 1.3. It is still the best bet for threat boost from my experience.

[wadecounty]

If you're a Juggernaut and you have zero threat issues at the start of a fight, you have bad DPS. That's just the state of things currently, and it'll stay that way until they fix Crushing Blow, which never needed to be nerfed in the first place.

[Burning-Beard]

Most of my aggro problems are taken care of by starting the fight with Saber Throw - Charge - (Enrage while Charging) - Backhand - Crushing Blow - Taunt. I used to lose aggro on Toth (whom I tank initially before the swaps) and Firebrand/Stormcaller until I started doing that. You have to do it kinda quick though, since I need my Taunt up pretty quickly for tank swaps in Z+T, especially in Story mode where we burn them down so fast.

[vandana_]

Most of my aggro problems are taken care of by starting the fight with Saber Throw - Charge - (Enrage while Charging) - Backhand - Crushing Blow - Taunt. I used to lose aggro on Toth (whom I tank initially before the swaps) and Firebrand/Stormcaller until I started doing that. You have to do it kinda quick though, since I need my Taunt up pretty quickly for tank swaps in Z+T, especially in Story mode where we burn them down so fast.

 

Use CB before Backhand - it's more threat.

[BlownSi]

I took the rotation changes posted in here and it has made the difference. I realized that I was not loading all of the high threat abilities right off the bat (i.e. backhand, CB, etc.). After adjusting the rotation and the dps giving me a 2-3 second window to land them before opening up, had no problems.

 

Thanks again for the suggestions. It just took some adjustment compared to my Sin tank.

[BlownSi]

Deleted - Double Post Edited September 27, 2012 by BlownSi

[CitizenFry]

I'm using the hybrid build, so I don't have the "high threat" abilities. Last night we ran story mode Terror from Beyond and wiped several times on the last boss, so I got LOTS of practice watching initial aggro against two marauders who were putting out 1500+ DPS. I held aggro just fine so long as I got Ravage in early. Try throw -> leap -> scream -> ravage -> taunt.

 

(It is seriously ridiculous how much threat Enraged Defense dumps. I now 100% recommend making sure you have both taunts up when you use it, because you will lose aggro immediately when you activate it, and again when your first taunt wears off...you really need the second taunt or the boss will stomp your DDs.)

[wadecounty]

One thing to keep in mind, when in Soresu, Smash becomes a high threat ability (assuming you have single saber mastery, which you should). And its damage should be almost the same as Crushing Blow with a full Immortal Jugg. Meaning, its actually a higher threat move than Backhand.

[vandana_]

One thing to keep in mind, when in Soresu, Smash becomes a high threat ability (assuming you have single saber mastery, which you should). And its damage should be almost the same as Crushing Blow with a full Immortal Jugg. Meaning, its actually a higher threat move than Backhand.

 

That's a good point. It's just that Backhand and Ravage are good threat generators and they are free of force. But yeah, you can squeeze Sundering Assault -> Smash before Force Scream.

Edited September 28, 2012 by vandana_

[BlownSi]

One thing to keep in mind, when in Soresu, Smash becomes a high threat ability (assuming you have single saber mastery, which you should). And its damage should be almost the same as Crushing Blow with a full Immortal Jugg. Meaning, its actually a higher threat move than Backhand.

 

Definitely. I have been incorporating smash into the rotation whenever it is off cooldown. Ran SM TFB last night.....no issues. I have relegated Enraged Defense to emergency use only, and only when I have a taunt to throw as soon as I hit the ability. It seems to drop a lot more agro than stated, or my guild's dps is just that close on my heels. My GM who is a PT tank and I are always shielding our sniper and mara now because they pull aggro so quickly if we as much as blink at the wrong time....lol.

[Elyx]

Definitely. I have been incorporating smash into the rotation whenever it is off cooldown. Ran SM TFB last night.....no issues. I have relegated Enraged Defense to emergency use only, and only when I have a taunt to throw as soon as I hit the ability. It seems to drop a lot more agro than stated, or my guild's dps is just that close on my heels. My GM who is a PT tank and I are always shielding our sniper and mara now because they pull aggro so quickly if we as much as blink at the wrong time....lol.

 

I learned this with ED as well. its an instant threat drop, so the next DPS in line picks up, and you turn around and taunt, boosting your threat above his. very smiple for a bit extra DR. just make sure your DPS is aware and if your on a boss where the next dps are ranged....need to be quick on the fly.

[vandana_]

I learned this with ED as well. its an instant threat drop, so the next DPS in line picks up, and you turn around and taunt, boosting your threat above his. very smiple for a bit extra DR. just make sure your DPS is aware and if your on a boss where the next dps are ranged....need to be quick on the fly.

 

You don't need to drop threat with ED to boost your threat with a taunt. Taunt boosts your threat to the level of pulling the mob's aggro. That is 110% against melee dps and 130% against ranged being the next person on aggro table.

Edited October 11, 2012 by vandana_