A Tale of Two Games: ToR and WoW - Review!

[BloatedGuppy]

Oh, that's easy. This is where my car analogy really shines and you shoot yourself in the foot. New cars have ABS, GPS, fancy LED lights, etc. OMG, that's like decades of technological advancement!! How? I'm hoping you realize how ridiculous your question is.

 

It's pretty easy. WoW did all the heavy lifting for ToR. They figured out that homogenizing classes is a good idea, that PvP arenas were a huge success, that multiple-level dungeons are a good idea, that LFG/LFM systems streamline the leveling process, that achievements are fun, that a moddable UI can create a huge modder community. Rift, a studio with less money, actually implemented most of these. You're now telling me there would have been no way for Bioware to implement them? Lets be fair.

 

I don't think that ToR would have had any way to release with the same amount of CONTENT that WoW presently has (and that's where you're completely correct), but features are NOT content. I think the content in ToR is fine, it's the features, or lack thereof, I have a problem with.

 

No...you still don't get it. The car analogy does not work. Your car does not have ABS, GPS, fancy LED lights, etc appear on it year by year as you drive it, and then a new bare bones model comes out. That's not how cars work, and that's why it is a terrible analogy, and you really need to let it go now.

 

I understand you feel that certain features were left out of release that NEED TO BE THERE. Other than the lack of a customizable UI, I can't really agree with you, and I think you're completely misjudging the mainstream MMO audience. Because you're a competitive high end PvE/PvP player, you feel you need certain things to have a complete experience. The vast majority don't. And you're continually making the error of thinking your opinion represents the masses, when it doesn't.

 

Your failure here is not in identifying things that would be nice to see folded into the game. Your failure here is thinking that the absence of these things at launch renders the game doomed to collapse.

[DroidzRule]

I disagree with almost everything in the original "review"...

 

As for UI... I think it is fine. I have never been a fan of requiring people to use 3rd party programs to play. The height of this, IMO, stupid concept was SSC in Burning Crusade when you absolutely HAD to have VENT and modified UI's to have any chance at defeating the final boss. Who in the <bleep> designs their game where you are required to have something that does not come with the game, in order to succeed? And yet, THAT is the model to which yourself and all the other "hardcores" ascribe? I am LOVING the fact that any UI modification will come from BW and not outside sources.

 

PVP - man...not everyone cares about PvP. In fact, I would say few...very few, actually care about PvP. I would have been fine had they not even included any PvP in the game. It is dumb in a game like this because you will NEVER balance the classes...EVER. All it leads to is whiners and NERF such and such posts.

 

Quests - I can not for the life of me see how anything here is remotely worse than what exists in WoW. Did you do the firelands dailies...Tol Barad? I mean... /yawn. If you enjoy flying quests etc... there actually are space combat quests. I guess you forgot to mention that part.

 

And finally, for me the story is hands down 100x better than in WoW. And I am actually making choices that affect my characters progression and appearance. I mean, when did anyone do anything like that in WoW?

 

As far as I am concerned WoW is a great game. A monumental achievement that set the standard for MMO's moving forward. But, this game has a lot of elements right out of the gate that are very enjoyable and will set it up for a long term successful run I think. We are not looking at AoC here... not by a longshot.

[Sylentmana]

Another good point is, when you start a post by telling everyone why you believe you are more qualified than others to write a review, it makes people think "My, what a big head you have."

[Milude]

Who really cares about some Joe's review? Especially one so poorly written?

[jayenomics]

OP, sorry man but just reading what you said about skipping all VO because you don't want to hear their life story...you shouldn't be playing the game then.... lol This is the only MMO that is ALL about the story.

[Jumajin]

OP, sorry man but just reading what you said about skipping all VO because you don't want to hear their life story...you shouldn't be playing the game then.... lol This is the only MMO that is ALL about the story.

 

Sounds like just the typical grab-quest, facestomp, WoW power-leveller to me.

 

Oh, but wait . . . he played in PvP tournaments, too! ****, his opinion means everything now!!!

 

Seriously, OP, move on. Who cares about SWTOR vs. WoW? I played WoW for years, and I sure don't. If you don't like SWTOR, go back to WoW. You won't be missed.

 

Blizzard is that way. --------------------------->

[qqemokitty]

I don't know why I click threads like this when I know they are going to irritate me.

 

Don't get me wrong. I loved WoW, and aside from SWG it was the only MMO I played for more than a month or so (since beta in fact, and my WoW account is still active). But I really can't abide these comparisons.

 

Calling people fanboys does not indicate any objectivity on your part. Ideally, reviews are objective. What you have done is offered an editorial, an opinion. This is fine, but don't sell it as an unbiased review because it is not one.

 

And oh my goodness, did you call arena PvP in WoW a success? Arena PvP, an addition which even WoW's development team has admitted was a terrible mistake? Arena PvP, which the WoW development team has admitted negatively impacted the blending of PvP and PvE players into two very distinct and usually unblendable groups that were at each others throats? Arena PvP... the cause of a years long unwinnable struggle for class balance. I could go on.

 

And you are also lobbying for the cross server LFG tool, a tool which, while it did make grouping easier, almost entirely eradicated the community feeling of WoW (also admitted (though p'raps not in such a negative light) by the WoW dev team)?

 

I stab in your general direction with my mind lazers.

[anethers]

OP, I disagree

[GGTeMpLaR]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. For ToR, unfortunately, mostly the worst. This isn't my first review - I reviewed the game during the beta several times, but I was shunned by incredulous and overzealous fans. After all, it was "just" a beta. Well here we are, at the dawn of release - no longer in the beta. So where does this game stand in the grand scheme of things? How does it compare to WoW, SWG, Rift, GW2? Lets find out.

 

Who am I? I'm some dude that led a top-US CS:S team for many years, was a part of two top-10 WoW guilds, and played in several WoW Arena Tournies (including the CGS invitational) and many many CS tournaments, including the CPL. I also had a stint working for an indie game developer several years ago. I like to think that I know what I'm talking about, and usually, I do.

 

Story

Story. Story. Story. We've heard it over and over again. Bioware has really hammered this home - much how Vincent Chase is Queens Boulevard, The Old Republic is story. And story is one of the few battles ToR wins. The voice over quality is top notch and primary class quests are mostly interesting and engaging. Some may be deterred by the incessant use of family drama as a plot device since it gets old pretty fast. With that said, don't expect Chaucer, but the writing is sufficient.

 

Unfortunately, the side quests are problematic and suffer from trivial subject matters ("blah blah click some turrets") or endless fetch questing (go to X, come back to Y, go to X again, now back to Y). This wouldn't have been a problem 10 years ago, but 2012 is almost here. WoW has moved us past the trivialities of fetch questing and now we do cool stuff like lassoing dragons, bombing runs or mind-controlling giants. ToR pretends like there hasn't been an entire generation of MMORPGs since KOTOR and suffers for it greatly. Bonus quests are an interesting touch, but more often than not, they insult the player. Here you are doing the most trivial of tasks (ex: clicking control panels - a Bioware favorite) and a bonus quest pops up that asks you to kill 30 of the same type of mob. And just like that, we're all sent back to the late 90s. Bioware has a lot to learn from Jeff Kaplan.

 

On many levels, however, the VO is a technical achievement. Ordinarily, I'd have no problem with pouring so much money into something like voice over, but the gameplay significantly suffered from it. To me, that's unforgivable.

 

Combat

The crux of a good MMORPG is solid combat. I expect combat to be fluid, responsive, and logical. ToR has a pretty good grasp of what it wants to do, but doesn't quite reach the bar set by better MMOs. First of all, the "heroic" combat Bioware preached for years and years isn't as heroic as they made it out to be. Animations are often choppy and blocking animations seem to happen at random times (as opposed to having weapons make contact). But lets face it, it's not a big deal. What is a big deal, however, is the lack of an auto-attack.

 

This quizzical gameplay choice hurts more than it helps. It means that the gamer needs to manually press 1-1-1-1-1 (or right-click like a madman) to use the regular "white attack" ability and to generate resources that one may use (in the case of the Warrior-archetypes). Not only is this boring, but it literally provides zero gameplay improvement - what is the reasoning behind no auto-attack? Who knows.

 

Stealth and cover are very underwhelming. Cover, in particular, is nigh worthless in PvP. The conical radius, the spent GCD, the fact that 4 classes can easily close range, and the fact that almost every class has a knock-back should be very clear indicators that a mechanic like cover is a terrible, terrible idea.

 

Stealth, as mentioned, is very odd. On one hand, it tries to mimic what stealth is in WoW (a fundamental mechanic of classes like rogues and feral druids), while more often than not it becomes merely a trivial escape mechanism. It needs to be fundamentally reworked - stealth should be a game mechanic, not a novelty.

 

PvE and Leveling

Admittedly, a high point of the game are the instances (known as flashpoints). Black Talon, Athiss, Hammer Station, etc. are all fairly well-designed. Mechanics are tried and true: get out of the fire, interrupt heals, kite bad stuff. This is where ToR really does feel like "WoW in space" and it's also arguably the best part of the game. As a matter of fact, the only reason I'm still playing is because I'm curious to see if the large-scale Operations will be as good as Flashpoints.

 

Leveling is fairly smooth, but the fact that the world is sharded can be distracting and does discourage grouping. Heroic 2+ man quests can be fun, but I found myself skipping them more often than not - the time invested doesn't seem worth it. During hardcore leveling periods, I also found myself skipping all VO. I don't care about your life story, I just want to get this quest out of the way. I feel somewhat guilty about it, but these are the scenarios that make me feel like side-quest VO is a swing and a miss - a very expensive miss.

 

PvP

PvP is a joke, there's not much more to say. It's an insult to any form of competitive activity. Huttball is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen implemented in an MMO: Warsong Gulch with a passable flag? Really? What irks me most is that someone actually made money coming up with such a terrible idea. Inconsistent traps, obnoxious commentators, bad layout, Huttball has it all. There are 15-year-olds that designed better Unreal Tournament maps. Sure, there may be some occasional mindless fun to be had with Huttball, but there's no real value here.

 

Alderaan is significantly better, but doesn't even compare to the wide variety of BGs present in MMOs like WoW or Rift. Ignoring WoW's trailblazing here, Rift's "Black Garden" was a particularly awesome innovation. World PvP is more or less nonexistent.

 

If ToR was Communist Russia, PvP would be human rights.

 

Companions

Companions were lauded by Bioware as being an evolutionary step as far as the genre is concerned. Unfortunately, they turned out to be glorified pets. They even have an ability pet bar just like in WoW! Some companions are interesting, some are boring. They do seem to break up the monotony of the often morose landscapes, but they are basically just pets.

 

Companion crafting is a great idea, however. Not having to worry about crafting stuff yourself is pretty neat. ToR sometimes surprises you with interesting and progressive innovations. Unfortunately, these moments are far and few in between.

 

DOA

Does The Old Republic have a chance? Not with what we see on day 1. No chance. Fanboys and fangirls may try to make a case for ToR, but the reality is that there is no case for ToR. There are many changes that need to make their way into ToR for it to be a competitor to 2nd tier MMOs, let alone giants like WoW.

 

UI mods have been requested since beta. A combat log has been requested since beta. There are absolutely no features that even begin to address the social element of the game: guild achievements, guild skill trees, etc. There's a need for competitive PvP, LFG finders, etc, etc. These shouldn't be post-release patches, this is 2012! These are basic elements of modern MMORPGs. I don' think ToR is finished.

 

The only reason ToR won't die in 6 months is "Bioware" and "Star Wars." Will these two names carry the burden for a year? Two? I doubt it. But then again, I could be wrong. http://warhammeronline.com/ is still going. Don't fool yourself though. It's dead.

 

You may berate me now, but don't forget this review 1 year down the line. ToR is dead. Long live Titan?

 

TOR is the best RPG ever made.

[Laconic]

Is this DVX from Eredar?

 

If so, I remember you, your misogynistic article about how women gamers are always bad, and your general holier-than-thou attitude, despite being only moderately good. I see your sense of self-worth hasn't changed.

 

If not, I still disagree completely, but you can keep subscribing to World of Warcraft and no one will be upset. This clearly is not a game you would enjoy. Go ahead and unsubscribe, or keep paying $15/month to come on here and complain.

[Deoniss]

there are some things that needs to be changed,

 

in short, overall I love the game =),

 

levels are nice, hunting for datacrons is very interesting, I like idea with 1-2-3 answers not like in wow just click accept go, SWTOR really brings good of both RPG and MMO, so far I have more fun playing this game then WOW, started to play WOW 8 years ago.

 

Plus it just came out, I'm sure there will be more updates and stuff, when WOW came out it was even worse, cant even compare.

 

Few things needs to be tailored of course, but there is also huge place for improvement and new ideas, WoW is just boring and dyeing ppl coming to play there only for Raids and leveling up in 3 days, TOR has stories, secrets, nice planets, PVP, PVE, Space battles, Questing, Social ratings.

 

so in short game is good

 

they just need to add char transfer and reduce ques and I'm happy.

[guiltless]

Keep the WoW players away.

[Israful]

So far this game has my complete attention and I am having a blast!

I plan on staying for a loooong time.

 

Bioware I raise my glass to you. Cheers!!!

[qqemokitty]

Keep the WoW players away.

 

No?

 

Not all WoW players are slavering idiots. Rather the opposite. We are, if nothing else, customers capable of playing an MMO loyally for many years. WoW players are exactly what BioWare wants and needs.

[Tezencatli]

TOR is the best RPG ever made.

 

There! Right there!

 

What? You don't see it? o-o

 

TOR is the best [B]RPG[/b] ever made.

 

Right there!

 

That's what I always felt WoW lacked. The Roleplaying Game element. It's become so mechanical and impersonal. Click this button and get in a dungeon. Get ripped off by some pranc from another server. Skip over quest text, because even if you're interested, unless you REALLY enjoy reading generic quest story, you'll skip.

 

I hope that Bioware focuses on fixing a few bugs. But more importantly focus on story and roleplay elements. As well as community building on servers.

[Malphas]

Oh, that's easy. This is where my car analogy really shines and you shoot yourself in the foot. New cars have ABS, GPS, fancy LED lights, etc. OMG, that's like decades of technological advancement!! How? I'm hoping you realize how ridiculous your question is.

 

It's pretty easy. WoW did all the heavy lifting for ToR. They figured out that homogenizing classes is a good idea, that PvP arenas were a huge success, that multiple-level dungeons are a good idea, that LFG/LFM systems streamline the leveling process, that achievements are fun, that a moddable UI can create a huge modder community. Rift, a studio with less money, actually implemented most of these. You're now telling me there would have been no way for Bioware to implement them? Lets be fair.

 

I don't think that ToR would have had any way to release with the same amount of CONTENT that WoW presently has (and that's where you're completely correct), but features are NOT content. I think the content in ToR is fine, it's the features, or lack thereof, I have a problem with.

 

Actually, no that's an area where your car analogy falls apart. Car manufacturers don't make gps, leds, abs, etc, they buy them and put them into the cars they build. Games are different, some stuff can be bought from a third party and plugged in, but a lot of it is custom code specifically built for the game. Developing that takes a lot of time but you know that.

 

Rift implemented that stuff because that's what they chose to focus on. They didn't do multiple character stories, companion stories, etc. Its one thing to be aware of xyz mechanic and know you just have to have it in your game, its a completely different thing to prioritise its development above a feature that defines your game. Bioware invested in story, companions, etc up front, they will add quality of life features and who knows what else as the game matures.

 

Its obvious you love wow and to a certain extent rift, that's fine. Both are good games. Just because tor isn't for you doesn't mean you need spew p*ss and vinegar to those who are thoroughly enjoying the game.

[JKhayos]

Not all WoW players are slavering idiots.

 

True.

We are, if nothing else, customers capable of playing an MMO loyally for many years.

 

True, based on the understanding that "capable" is a variant and not a guarantee.

 

WoW players are exactly what BioWare wants and needs.

 

Not really...

 

To justify my position, I feel BW wants/needs MMO players. They need/want people who will enjoy a game for the social aspect and appreciate a mild to major challenge. They will meet those challenges of their varying degrees with maturity and logic, with at least mostly fair opinions. I don't feel that BW and SWTOR needs the kind of players who are ego-driven and lazy, who need constant praise to feel validated, and who can't appreciate subtle beauty. WoW (again, IMO) has made a new demographic of gamers who play MMOs as if they were FPS and need constant intense stimulation to be satisfied. The great part about MMOs is the little things, the stuff outside of the intense stimulation, and they miss that. So in that vein, no, WoW players should shoo. (As a disclaimer, I too played WoW until January of this year. Yes, Cata killed it for me.)

 

Can we compromise on BC WoW players?

[JetfireZ]

Wow was fun, for a while. Then it got boring. I don't care about mods, in fact I hated that the Wow UI was by default almost useless for actually playing the game. I am happy to say that the TOR UI seems to be completely adequate. I can even heal in it decently.

 

I absolutely despised having to search up and maintain mods for Wow. It completely broke the immersion and turned it into a giant dashboard watching game. Seriously if I want to watch meters, bars, timers and gauges constantly I'll just play MS Flight Sim.

 

When it comes to combat, I'm really not sure what game you were playing. Wow has nothing on TOR combat animations and abilities. I enjoy combat in TOR, I never enjoyed combat in Wow and I never felt anything but incredibly under powered. It always seemed my mage was trying to take down snowmen with a bic lighter.

 

Sharding... Um, thanks but I love this. You mean I don't have to spend millions of years waiting for respawns or dealing with spawns so fast 5 things all pop on me at once and I die? Yeah, shards please.

 

Companions. I have never played a game with companion AI this good. My pet in wow was not this smart. Not even close. Companions in ME2 were not even this good.

 

DOA OIC IDK TOR I<3

[VinVenture]

This is 2012!

Oh? I hadn't noticed.

[qqemokitty]

True.

 

 

True, based on the understanding that "capable" is a variant and not a guarantee.

 

 

 

Not really...

 

To justify my position, I feel BW wants/needs MMO players. They need/want people who will enjoy a game for the social aspect and appreciate a mild to major challenge. They will meet those challenges of their varying degrees with maturity and logic, with at least mostly fair opinions. I don't feel that BW and SWTOR needs the kind of players who are ego-driven and lazy, who need constant praise to feel validated, and who can't appreciate subtle beauty. WoW (again, IMO) has made a new demographic of gamers who play MMOs as if they were FPS and need constant intense stimulation to be satisfied. The great part about MMOs is the little things, the stuff outside of the intense stimulation, and they miss that. So in that vein, no, WoW players should shoo. (As a disclaimer, I too played WoW until January of this year. Yes, Cata killed it for me.)

 

Can we compromise on BC WoW players?

 

Since BC was the pinnacle of WoW for me as well, I suppose yes.

 

But I really still have to take issue with the idea that because WoW appealed to a broader scope of gamers and potential gamers (bringing in both ppl who never gamed before and people who were "bro-gamers" and not mmo/rpg players), that the majority of WoW players required constant flashy lights stimulation to enjoy the game, and were unable to enjoy the subtleties of fine story telling and beautiful compelling environments. Longest sentence EVER.

 

Perhaps community wise, we could do without what I will just continue to call "bro-gamers" but in the grand scheme of things (customer retention, revenue, etc) they are subscribers who will continue to pay and play as long if not longer than someone who plays only for the story, or those who play the game as single player and get bored because they don't enjoy grouping at end game. Longest sentence EVER part dos.

Edited December 20, 2011 by qqemokitty

[kennn]

Since BC was the pinnacle of WoW for me as well, I suppose yes.

 

But I really still have to take issue with the idea that because WoW appealed to a broader scope of gamers and potential gamers (bringing in both ppl who never gamed before and people who were "bro-gamers" and not mmo/rpg players), that the majority of WoW players required constant flashy lights stimulation to enjoy the game, and were unable to enjoy the subtleties of fine story telling and beautiful compelling environments. Longest sentence EVER.

 

Perhaps community wise, we could do without what I will just continue to call "bro-gamers" but in the grand scheme of things (customer retention, revenue, etc) they are subscribers who will continue to pay and play as long if not longer than someone who plays only for the story, or those who play the game as single player and get bored because they don't enjoy grouping at end game. Longest sentence EVER part dos.

 

you know star wars has a really huge fanbase, correct?

[qqemokitty]

you know star wars has a really huge fanbase, correct?

 

Yes. But what that has to do with my post, or the post of the person I was responding to, I do not know.

[Blackweb]

Sorry OP I disagree with alot of what your saying, you might have experience working/playing other games, but your opinions is still "your" opinion of the game, it's not really with good reason either if you ask me.

 

Particularly the part about the combat system, try sitting down making a lvl 1 char in wow and play for 1 hour, then go play tor for one hour and tell me they didn't just up the quality of both graphics, combat system and immersion?

 

I admit it's not 100% perfect but it's hell of alot more entertaining to bash/fry things in this game, than it ever was in wow.

[lazorz]

OP is obvious a raging Blizzard Fanboy. One of the points you brought up about world pvp in this game is it is non existant. Have you played wow since they came out with all their fast traveling methods. World PVP does not exist in wow. Arenas are garbage, and Blizzard proved that they cant even come close to balancing their game in how many years. As far as no auto attack, you better look to your blizzard gods cause the new Monk class has no auto attack either. Better go back to World of Kung Fu Panda and leave us alone with your bias review.

[Lordzallmoxis]

When you try to use the point of this game should be released to be a direct result of the time period it is in, you fail to think outside the box a bit.

 

Sure this game was started on in 2005 and WoW came out in 2004. How many years before 2004 did Blizz start working on WoW? I played WoW on day one and several years after and WoW was at best lacking some features of other MMO's out at the time, MMO's that had been out for years before WoW.

 

Now think on the other hand: Wow released in 2004, SW started work in 2005. They were working off the current status of MMO's at5 that time, we can all agree on this. Now think about how big MMO's are, how much time it takes to develop the background aspects, the coding, the story, etc etc... If BW stopped every time WoW or any other MMO released new and improved functions of their MMO and went back to attempt to match it for thier game... hmm.

 

All the previous coding would be stopped, they would have to go back to the drawing board, figure out how to implement the new features in their game, come up with new programming, internal testing, man hours etc. By the time they get caught up, the other MMO's released something else new... rinse and repeat.

 

If BW followed this protocol, the game would never be released.