Swap jet charge and grapple in 1.4

[FeralPug]

Let's compare:

 

Grapple: 45 second cooldown, fills resolve, limited to server lag and possible obstacles, impossible to use on a full resolve target, interrupts target only when resolve isn't full

 

Jet Charge: 15 second cooldown, does not fill resolve, not limited by server lag and obstacles, usable on any target regardless of resolve, roots target and interrupts target regardless of resolve

 

Pretty obvious which one is the better gap closer. You obviously think pulling a player into fire is more important, which is fine...you obviously don't play the class much which is ok, too. Further comments by you will be regarded with amusement with a healthy dose of apathy.

 

Let's compare:

 

Having an ability meant for a melee class, which pyros are not. I don't want to be in melee range most of the time. Just for my rocket punch. I want to be at 10 m. Oh, you're one of those pyros that humps his target and ends each game with a ton of deaths. NM. Jet charge is perfect for you!

 

or

 

Having one of the most OP abilities in the game that has been consistently on peoples' "nerf list" since launch. That can be used to peal, to send folks into hazards, off bridges, into stacks of AOE's, out of range of healing or guard etc.

 

Grapple is harder to use well. No doubt. Maybe it's a L2P issue with some of these folks. Not sure.

 

Don't give me a melee talent though. Don't need it. Don't want it.

[DacRycar]

Pretty obvious which one is the better gap closer. You obviously think pulling a player into fire is more important, which is fine...you obviously don't play the class much which is ok, too. Further comments by you will be regarded with amusement with a healthy dose of apathy.

 

He don't know, Jerc. He don't know!

Oh, Wilsu, if only we had cross-server PvP, then you'd eat those words.

 

I have issue with this thread. The average Dick and Jane seem to think that to make this game "balanced" one needs to either nerf damage, nerf abilities or swap existing abilities. There is very little outside-the-box thinking. One can either have or have not.

 

Give Powertech both a pull and a leap (or something to get into the 10 meter range quickly). The two abilities are not interchangeable. Moving a target around verses moving to a target are two different mechanics. With either, the Powertech is still a glass cannon with no escape utility.

Edited September 19, 2012 by DacRycar

[Wilsu_Addar]

Let's compare:

 

Having an ability meant for a melee class, which pyros are not. I don't want to be in melee range most of the time. Just for my rocket punch. I want to be at 10 m. Oh, you're one of those pyros that humps his target and ends each game with a ton of deaths. NM. Jet charge is perfect for you!

 

or

 

Having one of the most OP abilities in the game that has been consistently on peoples' "nerf list" since launch. That can be used to peal, to send folks into hazards, off bridges, into stacks of AOE's, out of range of healing or guard etc.

 

Grapple is harder to use well. No doubt. Maybe it's a L2P issue with some of these folks. Not sure.

 

Don't give me a melee talent though. Don't need it. Don't want it.

 

Is shield tech a melee class? What extra abilities do they have in pvp that require them to be in melee?

 

The ability to be at 10m during a battle is a liability. You try to stay at max distance, the target could suddenly shift position and be out of your range for a moment where you miss a crucial ability, he gets a heal, etc. You don't need to hump a target, but assuming you can stay at 10m during a fight is wishful thinking.

 

As far as having both, sure I'd love to have both. However, the resulting QQ would drown the forums.

[DacRycar]

As far as having both, sure I'd love to have both. However, the resulting QQ would drown the forums.

 

People will get over it. No one likes it when one person gets something new and they don't. When I was a kid, my grandparents gave myself and my siblings presents on our other sibling's birthday, just so we didn't feel left out! Looking back, I hated them for doing that because when I became an adult I realized how pitiful that was.

 

Why do I bring that up? Because that's how I see people who don't play the class. They pitchfork for Powertechs/Vanguards to be nerfed into the ground and all because they had bad experiences. They want nothing but revenge. At this point, if Powertechs get any sort of perceived buff, the kiddies will throw a tantrum regardless of how large or how small the buff is.

 

So I say to hell with them! Give Powertechs the tools we need to be the intended "melee" class BioWare thinks we are! Everyone else can suck it up and ask to be just as powerful as we, the Marauders and the Assassins are. Why should we be the ones nerfed when we're already an excellent class? Give them buffs so they can be as awesome as we are!

Edited September 20, 2012 by DacRycar

[DarkSaberMaster]

People will get over it. No one likes it when one person gets something new and they don't. When I was a kid, my grandparents gave myself and my siblings presents on our other sibling's birthday, just so we didn't feel left out! Looking back, I hated them for doing that because when I became an adult I realized how pitiful that was.

 

Why do I bring that up? Because that's how I see people who don't play the class. They pitchfork for Powertechs/Vanguards to be nerfed into the ground and all because they had bad experiences. They want nothing but revenge. At this point, if Powertechs get any sort of perceived buff, the kiddies will throw a tantrum regardless of how large or how small the buff is.

 

So I say to hell with them! Give Powertechs the tools we need to be the intended "melee" class BioWare thinks we are! Everyone else can suck it up and ask to be just as powerful as we, the Marauders and the Assassins are. Why should we be the ones nerfed when we're already an excellent class? Give them buffs so they can be as awesome as we are!

 

I'm pretty much right there with you.

[Maraxuss]

If this went through...just who in thier right mind would ever play a shield tech in pvp. Its already been said about a gazillion times on the pvp forum, playing a tank in pvp is gimped, and you want to take the one thing that makes the holdouts keep going tank and make it baseline...The question then becomes "Who in the heck is so retarded that they wouldn't play pyro". You'd be getting 500k trade in damage on pyro, vs 150k damage from shieldtech in matches, and still get the jump, the thing keeping the shieldtech holdouts; the holdouts.

You would have to give shieldtech something just as awesome as you think jump is to replace it, to make it base line, a quicker cool down on grapple ain't it friend. Do you just not want anyone playing shieldtechs in pvp? Thats what this change would lead to.

[Wonkadude]

I think Leap is something that needs to be considered at this point, but, it would mean that at least FB should be reduced to 4m. And everything still 30m should be reduced to 10m.

 

This would actually make sense, as IM with 10m range atm has no meaning.

 

FB to 4m and everything else to 10m wouldreally mess up us PvE tanks. but anyways.....

 

Jet Charge should be an ability we get around 40-50 and to replace jet charge we should have it replaced by an ability similar to pommel strike (high damage) and have Jet Speed replaced with something that increases either our new pommel strike like abilitys threat OR increases threat on heat blast (preferably both)

[Anysao]

Gap closer idea- walking.

Us operatives need to do it for melee. The idea is jet charge is an upgrade to grapple, because it gets you close to all enemies, not just one.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Gap closer idea- walking.

Us operatives need to do it for melee. The idea is jet charge is an upgrade to grapple, because it gets you close to all enemies, not just one.

 

Ummmm. Difference is, ya'll have stealth and the soon to be Sprint. And if Jet Charge is supposed to be an upgrade to Grapple, then why don't Shadow's and Assassin's have a leap of sorts since their pull is basically the same as ours and are also a tanking class?

 

Just saying.

[LilTsar]

no ty. the reason pts have a less reliable gap closer than warriors is that we aren't as completely gimped if we're not solidly in melee range. does it mean sometimes im reduced to missile blast for a couple gcds? sure. but thats the tradeoff of melee and range. to compensate for their ability to be fully effective at a distance we can't, they sacrifice some degree or another of mobility. which is a substantial part of why more instant-based and therefore more mobile ranged specs like madness sorc, pyro merc, lehal snipe or healing op are more popular. but even these have tradeoffs. they all have less burst than other specs, and dot classes can be pretty severely scrood by anyone with a cleanse.

[Tenniswood]

No, we should not get a leap. We should keep it where it is in the shield tech tree and keep our pull.

 

First of all, with a leap and pull, we would be incredibly over powered.

 

Second, the reason we were nerfed was our ability to blow people up as soon as they came in to our 30m range. Giving us a leap would undo the nerf and honestly, we needed a nerf. We put out insanely high numbers, or at least us good pyros.

 

Third, removing leap from the shield tech tree (which I play most of the time for pve) would take the last good thing about it away. The leap is the ONLY thing they have over pyros in pvp. They are a little bit less squishy but don't put up nearly as good dps numbers. Making the leap universal would make the tree almost worthless.

 

Fourth, quit calling us a melee class. We have ONE attack that has a 4m range. Mara's are melee. If they are not close, they can do nothing. They need a leap. We are mid range. 10m is more than enough to kite melee and dish out damage. Melee need leaps, we do not.

 

Switching grapple and rocket leap would not fix the problem in any case. Pyros would go back to being OP and shield techs would become near worthless. It would be a band aid solution to quell QQ threads.

 

PROPOSAL: Leave grapple and leap as is. Put our slow back to 50%, I hate this 30% crap. Re build "energy re-bounder" so that it increases our movement speed by 7.5%/15% OR include on "Deguass" while energy shield is active, you move 30/60% faster. We would be able to move faster and keep people slowed while we were in 10m. We would have a "gap closer" of sorts and be able to keep people in our 10m sweet spot. In pve we could close gaps efficiently with the speed boost and we would still put out similar numbers to what we do now.

[IxBlazinDxI]

As much as I would hate to give up grapple, the fact is a closer is an absolute necessity.

 

Or you could just roll a Pyro Merc and melt PT's from range.

 

Cyraaxx

[-Holmes]

Or you could just roll a Pyro Merc and melt PT's from range.

 

Cyraaxx

 

I'm 49 levels too late for that. I guess it's bye-bye RWZ for me.

 

No, we should not get a leap. We should keep it where it is in the shield tech tree and keep our pull.

 

First of all, with a leap and pull, we would be incredibly over powered.

 

Second, the reason we were nerfed was our ability to blow people up as soon as they came in to our 30m range. Giving us a leap would undo the nerf and honestly, we needed a nerf. We put out insanely high numbers, or at least us good pyros.

 

Third, removing leap from the shield tech tree (which I play most of the time for pve) would take the last good thing about it away. The leap is the ONLY thing they have over pyros in pvp. They are a little bit less squishy but don't put up nearly as good dps numbers. Making the leap universal would make the tree almost worthless.

 

Fourth, quit calling us a melee class. We have ONE attack that has a 4m range. Mara's are melee. If they are not close, they can do nothing. They need a leap. We are mid range. 10m is more than enough to kite melee and dish out damage. Melee need leaps, we do not.

 

Switching grapple and rocket leap would not fix the problem in any case. Pyros would go back to being OP and shield techs would become near worthless. It would be a band aid solution to quell QQ threads.

 

PROPOSAL: Leave grapple and leap as is. Put our slow back to 50%, I hate this 30% crap. Re build "energy re-bounder" so that it increases our movement speed by 7.5%/15% OR include on "Deguass" while energy shield is active, you move 30/60% faster. We would be able to move faster and keep people slowed while we were in 10m. We would have a "gap closer" of sorts and be able to keep people in our 10m sweet spot. In pve we could close gaps efficiently with the speed boost and we would still put out similar numbers to what we do now.

 

How do you fight a sniper?

Edited September 26, 2012 by -Holmes

[grallmate]

How do you fight a sniper?

 

From 6 feet under. The same way you would if you had a leap. Since you know, you can't leap to them in cover.

 

In regards to melee classes. Guardians have 2 abilities (Leap and Throw) that work at >10m. They have 4 more abilties (Blade Storm, Stasis, Dispatch [which only works at <30%], Push) that work at >4m. They also lack a method the generate a meaningful amount of focus outside 4m. Best case without leap they can get 12 Focus (and spend 6 [or 12 if <30%]) and then they're tapped for 30 seconds.

 

For PvE: getting to 10m is pretty quick. Plus as a DPS, not front loading your damage makes it easier for the tank. You can also still deal some (not a lot) of damage while closing and don't immediately get KBed because those leapers have already triggered it. Across an entire fight, you probably lose less DPS from closing gaps than a ranged cast/channeling DPS loses from moving.

 

For PvP: You're gonna have a much harder time getting into, and maintaining range. But you already deal huge damage while you're in range so that's the trade off. You do have the 30% snare to help keep range and Harpoon to help get them in range but neither is perfect. Hutt Ball is definitely gonna be harder for the PT Pyros since they can't get up on those platforms as easily as leapers and stealthers.

[Azrienov]

This should absolutely not happen. By giving you a gap closer on such a short cooldown, they eliminate the need to play the class intelligently. As it is, you're fine where you're at. You still inflict monstrous damage. And you have a hardcounter....

 

Ironically the Pyro merc, who you've derped on all his life.

[grallmate]

This should absolutely not happen. By giving you a gap closer on such a short cooldown, they eliminate the need to play the class intelligently. As it is, you're fine where you're at. You still inflict monstrous damage. And you have a hardcounter....

 

Ironically the Pyro merc, who you've derped on all his life.

 

Nah, the HARD counter is the Sniper (can't be pulled) and possibly the Sorc since they can get out of range pretty quick after harpoon. Merc (both DPS trees) are more a soft counter thanks to harpoon.

[Hendershot]

Marauders have several moves over 4m, therefor they are not a melee class, and should not have a charge.

[grallmate]

Marauders have several moves over 4m, therefor they are not a melee class, and should not have a charge.

 

My sniper has a 4m attack, does that make him melee then? Marauders are not at all effective outside of 4m. They can make a couple of attacks but they cannot generate a meaningful amount of Rage and therefore cannot sustain DPS. That comment is like saying my Assassin is ranged because he gets to use Force Lightning at 30m twice every 90 seconds.

 

I can tell you aren't interested in understanding anything that has been said here and are merely acting like a child that has had their shiny bauble taken away. I'll give you a pro tip: "I want it because he has it" isn't a good tactic for convincing someone to give you something.

[LilTsar]

Marauders have several moves over 4m, therefor they are not a melee class, and should not have a charge.

 

knights/warriors are the most melee class in the game. even their few non melee moves, discounting leap, require them to build resource first, and can only do that with leap and being in melee range. which, again, is why they have a more reliable gap closer.