Swap jet charge and grapple in 1.4

[Face]

Why to mercenarys, ranged dps/heals, need a gap closer? You could make it lower in the tank tree, but it doesn't need to be a basic skill for BH.

[Leovinus]

Why to mercenarys, ranged dps/heals, need a gap closer? You could make it lower in the tank tree, but it doesn't need to be a basic skill for BH.

 

If anyone here actually said that, I suspect they misspoke and were actually wanting jet charge to be a Powertech base skill, not bounty hunter. Every single powertech could make use of it. And yet, the "gap closer" that we do have access to adds significant threat, and is so obviously intended as a tanking skill, it's not even funny.

 

Just switch them already and make the changes to the AP tree that would be required. Then if you want to pull people into the fire, you just have to spec as an aim/willpower tank.

[CharterMonkKent]

Belive me they wont - the problem was a 50% snare mixed with a large set of ranged abilities made it hard for people to put down DPS on you.

 

And for all intents and purposes they will be melee classes from 1.4. The question is if they will be a broken one or not.

 

AP damage has always been within 10m and it's been just fine. Pyro players will finally join the rest of the AC as a mid range class. It's not melee, it's not ranged. It's not a combination of the two. It's mid ranged. If PT was melee then they'd take away ranged spam attack and make all other attacks within 4m.

 

This begging for a game changing skill reminds me of people complaining about jedi/sith classes not having a free ranged attack to spam.

[CharterMonkKent]

I've said it before, but I want to say it this thread as well:

 

Swapping jet charge with grapple would mean yet another nerf for the DPS trees. This is a horrendously poorly thought out proposal. The opinion to make this change is absolutely not representative of the superb powertechs I am fortunate enough to play with on a daily basis.

 

Pyro will be fine in 1.4. AP will viable finally. The tank tree needs tweaking, but at least we'll have 2 out of 3 specs that are worth playing in PVP.

 

Don't eff things up by requesting poorly thought out changes.

 

I agree. I did find one idea entertaining, even if complicated. Grapple pulls an enemy to you unless they have full resolve. Then it would pull you to them.

[Wilsu_Addar]

I've said it before, but I want to say it this thread as well:

 

Swapping jet charge with grapple would mean yet another nerf for the DPS trees. This is a horrendously poorly thought out proposal. The opinion to make this change is absolutely not representative of the superb powertechs I am fortunate enough to play with on a daily basis.

 

Pyro will be fine in 1.4. AP will viable finally. The tank tree needs tweaking, but at least we'll have 2 out of 3 specs that are worth playing in PVP.

 

Don't eff things up by requesting poorly thought out changes.

 

I like the part where you criticize ideas but offer absolutely no reasoning as to why you are criticizing it.

 

Bottom line is PT's need a gap closer. I am one of the top powertechs on my server, and have the fortune to also play with the other top PT's on the server...it is universally agreed that swapping jet charge and grapple would be a proper balancing move for PT's.

 

If you have a separate idea, let's hear it.

[ZeroPlus]

I've said it before, but I want to say it this thread as well:

 

Swapping jet charge with grapple would mean yet another nerf for the DPS trees. This is a horrendously poorly thought out proposal. The opinion to make this change is absolutely not representative of the superb powertechs I am fortunate enough to play with on a daily basis.

 

Pyro will be fine in 1.4. AP will viable finally. The tank tree needs tweaking, but at least we'll have 2 out of 3 specs that are worth playing in PVP.

 

Don't eff things up by requesting poorly thought out changes.

 

Ummm.. I'm confused... just what do you mean by "Swapping jet charge with grapple would mean yet another nerf for the DPS trees"???????

 

It will be a nerf in what way? How will swapping Jet Charge/Storm with Grapple/Harpoon affect DPS negatively?

 

Explain yourself and have "the superb powertechs" you know come here and explain "why" you (and they) think that "This is a horrendously poorly thought out proposal".

[Evuo]

Everyone has their own opinion, however we must remember we (as a playerbase) aren't entitled to any changes. We can discuss proposed changes til we are blue in the face and not everyone would agree; more importantly the development team might not even consider adding a gap closer for some Powertech specs an issue. While I admire the fact that players in this thread are willing to perform tradeoffs to address what they feel is a dire need, I do not agree with the proposed approach by the OP.

 

Personally, I would not trade grapple for an enemy leap. Grapple is an iconic ability across the advanced class. Waking up and suddenly finding this ability disappeared from my Powertech's skill book would leave with the feeling of playing a completely different class.

 

Being in that 4m range a leap would allow you, isn't always as ideal as it seems. I would rarely use a leap to close the gap to a lightsaber wielder. Why would I want to get in the face of a marauder?

 

If I was given the choice of a type of gap closer I would take a movement speed increase. These aren't dependant on there being an enemy target, so they can be used in any direction excluding the z-axis and in more ways than just to reduce space between you and an opponent.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Ummm.. I'm confused... just what do you mean by "Swapping jet charge with grapple would mean yet another nerf for the DPS trees"???????

 

It will be a nerf in what way? How will swapping Jet Charge/Storm with Grapple/Harpoon affect DPS negatively?

 

Explain yourself and have "the superb powertechs" you know come here and explain "why" you (and they) think that "This is a horrendously poorly thought out proposal".

 

They think it's horrible because it will affect one, I repeat, ONE war zone. How that logic works? I have no clue because there are more things to consider in this game when it comes to this proposal than ONE war zone. And I'm sorry. If Grappling/Harpooning a person into the fire pit is the only way they feel they can contribute to Huttball, then they have bigger issues that they need to address in themselves than worrying about this proposal.

[FeralPug]

Ummm.. I'm confused... just what do you mean by "Swapping jet charge with grapple would mean yet another nerf for the DPS trees"???????

 

It will be a nerf in what way? How will swapping Jet Charge/Storm with Grapple/Harpoon affect DPS negatively?

 

Explain yourself and have "the superb powertechs" you know come here and explain "why" you (and they) think that "This is a horrendously poorly thought out proposal".

 

Jet charge is perfect for tanks and true melee classes. Tanks need to be where the action is. It makes perfect sense to allow them to zip right into a group and tank the brunt of the damage.

 

It also makes perfect sense for a marauder or juggy. They have to be on top of an enemy to engage with 90% of their abilities. The also have extremely good defensive cooldowns. Mara's can take a lot of AOE damage. They are designed to survive in the middle of a battle.

 

Pyro is a 10 meter class. This is actually a very generous distance. Take the time to see how far away you can hit a target with flame burst. It's far. Sure you need melee range for rocket punch, but you can duck into range and back out very quickly. Pyro is also one of the most fragile specs in the game with one of the poorest defensive cooldowns. We are not meant to be in the thick of it.

 

I want to fight an enemy on my terms. Grapple is perfect for this. It will be even more essential with the changes to our snare. In AP grapple is important because it allows you to pull an additional enemy into your flame thrower. You can also use grapple to pull opponents into coordinately AOEs.

 

Grapple is one of the single most powerful and complained about abilities in the game and you guys want to trade it with a dramatically lesser ability? It's one of the craziest things I've read on the forums.

 

Who whines about jet charge? That's right. No one. Have you seen all the QQ about grapple since beta?? That's because it's an insanely powerful ability that is perfectly matched to the class.

[BobaFaceroll]

I'd love to fight people on my terms. Sometimes Grapple is good for letting that happen. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes who I want to fight on my terms has full resolve, so Grapple is useless. Sometimes who I want to fight on my terms is pillar humping or up/down the Z axis. By the time Grapple animates and the server decides where we both really are (not where we appear to be at the time) I wind up pulling someone in to an obstruction and the go essentially no where. Sometimes my Grappled target gets sucked right back away as both my team and the enemy have their own pulls. Sometimes I even want to fight someone more than once every 45 seconds. When this happens I become sad that Grapple can't (maybe) help me dictate terms.

 

Sometimes I even want to *GASP* do PvE content with my PT. Jet Charge would be far more useful there than Grapple. Every boss mob that ignores my Grapple would be more than happy to let me jump on their face. Every turret or pylon or mind entrapping object that's bolted to the ground and not moving anywhere can be happily jumped upon with Jet Charge.

[CharterMonkKent]

I'd love to fight people on my terms. Sometimes Grapple is good for letting that happen. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes who I want to fight on my terms has full resolve, so Grapple is useless. Sometimes who I want to fight on my terms is pillar humping or up/down the Z axis. By the time Grapple animates and the server decides where we both really are (not where we appear to be at the time) I wind up pulling someone in to an obstruction and the go essentially no where. Sometimes my Grappled target gets sucked right back away as both my team and the enemy have their own pulls. Sometimes I even want to fight someone more than once every 45 seconds. When this happens I become sad that Grapple can't (maybe) help me dictate terms.

 

Sometimes I even want to *GASP* do PvE content with my PT. Jet Charge would be far more useful there than Grapple. Every boss mob that ignores my Grapple would be more than happy to let me jump on their face. Every turret or pylon or mind entrapping object that's bolted to the ground and not moving anywhere can be happily jumped upon with Jet Charge.

 

sounds like you'd enjoy jugg or a mara. each class and AC has their own flavor in this game. that's the big reason I have 8 toons, to get a taste of any play style I want.

[BobaFaceroll]

sounds like you'd enjoy jugg or a mara. each class and AC has their own flavor in this game. that's the big reason I have 8 toons, to get a taste of any play style I want.

 

I have a Jugg. So what? The flavor of this class is getting changed. That doesn't mean I have to like the new recipe...I can ask for a pinch more of this and a dash less of that if I think it would improve the taste.

[Wilsu_Addar]

Jet charge is perfect for tanks and true melee classes. Tanks need to be where the action is. It makes perfect sense to allow them to zip right into a group and tank the brunt of the damage.

 

It also makes perfect sense for a marauder or juggy. They have to be on top of an enemy to engage with 90% of their abilities. The also have extremely good defensive cooldowns. Mara's can take a lot of AOE damage. They are designed to survive in the middle of a battle.

 

Pyro is a 10 meter class. This is actually a very generous distance. Take the time to see how far away you can hit a target with flame burst. It's far. Sure you need melee range for rocket punch, but you can duck into range and back out very quickly. Pyro is also one of the most fragile specs in the game with one of the poorest defensive cooldowns. We are not meant to be in the thick of it.

 

I want to fight an enemy on my terms. Grapple is perfect for this. It will be even more essential with the changes to our snare. In AP grapple is important because it allows you to pull an additional enemy into your flame thrower. You can also use grapple to pull opponents into coordinately AOEs.

 

Grapple is one of the single most powerful and complained about abilities in the game and you guys want to trade it with a dramatically lesser ability? It's one of the craziest things I've read on the forums.

 

Who whines about jet charge? That's right. No one. Have you seen all the QQ about grapple since beta?? That's because it's an insanely powerful ability that is perfectly matched to the class.

 

I can't really tell if you're trying to troll or not. Seems like a lot of effort for a troll, so I'll just resign it to the fact that you don't have much of a clue what you're talking about.

 

Grapple assists you in 1 Warzone, and that is Huttball, because pulling people into a fire is fun. In other Warzones, it has much more limited use. Jet Charge has much more utility in all warzones.

 

And yes, we want to be on top of people, setting them on fire, uppercutting them, and shooting lasers in their face. We can dip in and out of melee range, but more than likely we'll also be snared, we will be in "the thick of things" more often than not.

 

I suggested swapping those two abilities because it made sense. A tank brings control, a DPS brings damage. Allow the tank tree to have control with Grapple (maybe improve it slightly, lower the cooldown a little, something like that)..and let us do DPS by getting into DPS range.

 

To whomever posted that "Grapple defines the class" please do not post again. If you think a grappling hook defines a bounty hunter, I would challenge you to say the jetpack defines them more than anything.

[CharterMonkKent]

I have a Jugg. So what? The flavor of this class is getting changed. That doesn't mean I have to like the new recipe...I can ask for a pinch more of this and a dash less of that if I think it would improve the taste.

 

i understand the desire to beg for a buff after a change

 

but if we are being honest it's only changing for pyro. The other dps tree has always lived in the 10m range (and the other tree has charge). this thread is not about adding charge to PT, it's about adding charge so pyro can negate the (needed) change to the branch of the tree. adding charge as a base PT ability would make advanced proto exceedingly OP, they would have 3 gap closers.

 

PT 30m range has been a mistake for a long time, I'm unsure sure why it took so long to address it. i assume it's because of the qqing about pyro damage. a good example of share tree balance is oper lethality vs sniper lethality. oper lethality is 10m, sniper is 30m. they simply balanced PT/BH's shared tree.

[ZeroPlus]

i understand the desire to beg for a buff after a change

 

but if we are being honest it's only changing for pyro. The other dps tree has always lived in the 10m range (and the other tree has charge). this thread is not about adding charge to PT, it's about adding charge so pyro can negate the (needed) change to the branch of the tree. adding charge as a base PT ability would make advanced proto exceedingly OP, they would have 3 gap closers.

 

PT 30m range has been a mistake for a long time, I'm unsure sure why it took so long to address it. i assume it's because of the qqing about pyro damage. a good example of share tree balance is oper lethality vs sniper lethality. oper lethality is 10m, sniper is 30m. they simply balanced PT/BH's shared tree.

 

So you admit that 2 of the 3 trees already had a way to close to melee range and that the 3rd tree didn't, but didn't need it because they could damage/control their target while closing to melee range.

 

However, for some strange reason, you appear to be very happy that the 3rd tree is no longer able to do damage/control their target while closing to melee range.

 

Why is that?

 

But more importantly: what do you propose for this 3rd tree to allow it do the same as the other 2, which is effectively get into melee range?

 

Instead of just showing some apparent glee over the fact that Pyro has lost the ability to damage/control at range, propose something that will mitigate the problem. Discuss your ideas with us. Don't just shoot down this idea saying noone needs it because you don't need it in your spec of preference.

[CharterMonkKent]

So you admit that 2 of the 3 trees already had a way to close to melee range and that the 3rd tree didn't, but didn't need it because they could damage/control their target while closing to melee range.

 

However, for some strange reason, you appear to be very happy that the 3rd tree is no longer able to do damage/control their target while closing to melee range.

 

Why is that?

 

But more importantly: what do you propose for this 3rd tree to allow it do the same as the other 2, which is effectively get into melee range?

 

Instead of just showing some apparent glee over the fact that Pyro has lost the ability to damage/control at range, propose something that will mitigate the problem. Discuss your ideas with us. Don't just shoot down this idea saying noone needs it because you don't need it in your spec of preference.

 

I'm glad that at least you admit it's about pyro, others seem to deny it. Pyro does have a gap closer, grapple. I don't know what to make this this sentence of yours. "So you admit that 2 of the 3 trees already had a way to close to melee range and that the 3rd tree didn't, but didn't need it because they could damage/control their target while closing to melee range." . I think you're comparing completely different skill sets and then saying they all need the same utility? Not sure, but I'll address some things below.

 

I'll try to break it down as I see it, quickly, I'm at work I played pyro in WH for 3 months and AP for 2 months in WH, in both rateds and pugs. I have plenty of experience. I also have a merc, which I've been playing pyro on. Speaking in past tense below, like the change is already made in production. There is a tone of devs reaching for balance in my points.

 

1. PT pyro vs Merc pyro. PT far out-shined merc because the class is 100% mobile. To make this more unbalanced PT was able to bounce in and out of 10m, up to 30m while doing their prime rotation. A major reason for the change was to have two distinct variations of the BH Pyro tree. The ranged, merc and the 10m, PT (it is not melee).

 

2. PT Pyro had the easiest skill to damage ratio in the game. No one argues this. They needed a way to address this (while taking point 1 into consideration), a way to increase the difficultly of this spec without a direct damage reduction. They managed to do so, which is pretty amazing when you think about it. They didn't simply reduce pyro damage by x%.

 

3. Time to kill, you called this controlling while getting in range. This one should explain itself. Bringing PT pyro officially into the PT advanced class with the 10m will balance TTK with classes the pyro usually crushes. It will no longer require a very good madness sorc to beat a PT pyro. Even average players will make this a close fight.

 

4. This has to do with points 2 & 3. Each tree in this game has it's own utility, some hybrid specs dip into two. I'll compare to jugg since you have one (as do I). PT Pyro is burst and has a simple high rate proc (similar to one trick pony rage jugg). AP has sustained damage and some anti CC utility (veng). ST is mobile mid range tank (obvious here). The developers feel the burst of PT Pyro is enough of a utility to not give it more tankiness (but it has a lot) nor give it more mobility (instant in range rotation option, charge).

 

5. Last thing since I have to get back to work. Tunnel vision PTs may finally start to use taunts instead of hitting their railshot keybind over and over until it's off cool down.

 

We will not agree on this and I don't argue over video games But. In this case as in all with changes in game, there are those who think there is a problem (you) and those who think there is none (me). So all I typed is probably worthless. Either way I tried to explain how I see this change. It wasn't just about pyro's themselves, it was a move for balance that effects a number of classes and strategies. Adding in a charge ability would introduce another gap in that balance. yes that was a pun

 

-Lastly if they want to introduce a PvE only charge ability I couldn't care less.

[ZeroPlus]

OK CharterMonkKent. Got it. I see where you are coming from and why you feel that Pyro doesn't need anything else. Fair enough. Opinions will vary.

 

If I may though, let me just respond to this "Pyro does have a gap closer, grapple." by saying that so does ST and AP. However, ST and AP also have other ways to close. Pyro doesn't. This proposed change would even out the field across all 3 trees.

 

That's what I and others have been saying all along.

[CharterMonkKent]

OK CharterMonkKent. Got it. I see where you are coming from and why you feel that Pyro doesn't need anything else. Fair enough. Opinions will vary.

 

If I may though, let me just respond to this "Pyro does have a gap closer, grapple." by saying that so does ST and AP. However, ST and AP also have other ways to close. Pyro doesn't. This proposed change would even out the field across all 3 trees.

 

That's what I and others have been saying all along.

 

I think that's where we disagree in the whole thing. I don't think Pyro needs another one. I think their easy proc / high burst is enough. Time will tell!

[FeralPug]

I can't really tell if you're trying to troll or not. Seems like a lot of effort for a troll, so I'll just resign it to the fact that you don't have much of a clue what you're talking about.

 

 

Nope. Not a troll.

 

I'm confident that in 1.4 my damage numbers won't go down by much. I actually fully expect that people will still complain about the crazy burst of the pyro spec. After all, this burst damage is not being changed at all. It's ok, chicken little. The sky isn't actually falling. If you end up unable to put up the numbers you used to, I'm guessing you got too used to this faceroll spec.

 

Jump gets you to a target. Grapple changes the target's position on the field. Pealing, using hazards to instantly bring down durable targets, bringing targets into stacks of AOE is much better than a jump to a target. Throw in a new War Zone that will make grapple even more of a necessity for a competitive team, and you have one of the most iconic abilities in the game.

 

Ask yourself one question: which ability has been consistently complained about since the launch of the game as being insanely powerful, and game affecting? Jet charge or grapple?

 

I'm amused to no end that people actually want to strip grapple out of our dps trees while simultaneously complaining so bitterly about the much needed nerf to our spec. You guys are arguing for a nerf. I could only imagine the week after this change would go live. All those PT's who argued for it would suddenly realize that jet charge was terrible in comparison to grapple and there'd be no going back.

 

This argument actually doesn't matter. If they swap jet charge with grapple I'll eat my hat. It'll never happen....thank god!

Edited September 17, 2012 by FeralPug

[DacRycar]

5. Last thing since I have to get back to work. Tunnel vision PTs may finally start to use taunts instead of hitting their railshot keybind over and over until it's off cool down.

 

"Finally start"? How do any of these changes affect whether a Powertech player uses taunts or not? If they're not taunting now, like they should be, they won't taunt in 1.4. Non sequitur point there, CharterMonk.

 

Ask yourself one question: which ability has been consistently complained about since the launch of the game as being insanely powerful, and game affecting? Jet charge or grapple?

 

Despite my petition to have both Grapple and Jet Charge, even if we don't get both, I still plan to roll Assault... I mean "Pyro" despite the haters. FeralPug is correct, the main reason people complain is for the Grapple and the insane burst –*but its that burst that keeps us alive. We don't have very many defensive cooldowns to boast about nor do we have an execute.

Edited September 17, 2012 by DacRycar

[CharterMonkKent]

"Finally start"? How do any of these changes affect whether a Powertech player uses taunts or not? If they're not taunting now, like they should be, they won't taunt in 1.4. Non sequitur point there, CharterMonk.

 

 

 

Despite my petition to have both Grapple and Jet Charge, even if we don't get both, I still plan to roll Assault... I mean "Pyro" despite the haters. FeralPug is correct, the main reason people complain is for the Grapple and the insane burst –*but its that burst that keeps us alive. We don't have very many defensive cooldowns to boast about.

 

that was tongue in cheek. the forums don't always have to be serious

 

the joke was that if everything is blacked out on their bars they'd be forced to use taunts

[DacRycar]

that was tongue in cheek. the forums don't always have to be serious

 

the joke was that if everything is blacked out on their bars they'd be forced to use taunts

 

Comedy should have a beginning, a middle and an end.

[FeralPug]

"Finally start"? How do any of these changes affect whether a Powertech player uses taunts or not? If they're not taunting now, like they should be, they won't taunt in 1.4. Non sequitur point there, CharterMonk.

 

.

 

Taunts are great. Sometimes in unranked games I focus on how much damage I can taunt, vs. how much damage I can deal. Just fer funs.

 

Just know that taunts can be a liability in a rated game against skilled players. Many times I taunt to help relieve some damage on a buddy only to find out that the taunt really works! A smart player will focus the taunter until the debuff is gone/taunter is dead. Whichever comes first.

 

I used to believe taunts should always be on cooldown. Now I think it really depends on the match.

Edited September 17, 2012 by FeralPug

[DacRycar]

...only to find out that the taunt really works!

 

/sunglasses

 

Mother of God...

[Wilsu_Addar]

Nope. Not a troll.

 

I'm confident that in 1.4 my damage numbers won't go down by much. I actually fully expect that people will still complain about the crazy burst of the pyro spec. After all, this burst damage is not being changed at all. It's ok, chicken little. The sky isn't actually falling. If you end up unable to put up the numbers you used to, I'm guessing you got too used to this faceroll spec.

 

Jump gets you to a target. Grapple changes the target's position on the field. Pealing, using hazards to instantly bring down durable targets, bringing targets into stacks of AOE is much better than a jump to a target. Throw in a new War Zone that will make grapple even more of a necessity for a competitive team, and you have one of the most iconic abilities in the game.

 

Ask yourself one question: which ability has been consistently complained about since the launch of the game as being insanely powerful, and game affecting? Jet charge or grapple?

 

I'm amused to no end that people actually want to strip grapple out of our dps trees while simultaneously complaining so bitterly about the much needed nerf to our spec. You guys are arguing for a nerf. I could only imagine the week after this change would go live. All those PT's who argued for it would suddenly realize that jet charge was terrible in comparison to grapple and there'd be no going back.

 

This argument actually doesn't matter. If they swap jet charge with grapple I'll eat my hat. It'll never happen....thank god!

 

Let's compare:

 

Grapple: 45 second cooldown, fills resolve, limited to server lag and possible obstacles, impossible to use on a full resolve target, interrupts target only when resolve isn't full

 

Jet Charge: 15 second cooldown, does not fill resolve, not limited by server lag and obstacles, usable on any target regardless of resolve, roots target and interrupts target regardless of resolve

 

Pretty obvious which one is the better gap closer. You obviously think pulling a player into fire is more important, which is fine...you obviously don't play the class much which is ok, too. Further comments by you will be regarded with amusement with a healthy dose of apathy.