1.4 Sticky Grenade Range

[NurseDonut]

So, Plastique is dropping to 10 m. Any word on Sticky Grenade?

 

Presuming Sticky stays 30 m, is anyone considering dropping Assault Plastique for a 0/13/28 or something?

[DacRycar]

I'm sure a few folks are, but that's not the issue.

 

The issue is Incendiary Round dropping to 10 meters, which puts a stop on the "gap closing" rotation of Assault Plastique -> Incendiary Round -> High Impact Bolt -> 10 meter abilities.

 

The "burst" is timing the Assault Plastique and the High Impact Bolt to fire at the same time (or close to it). High Impact Bolt refreshes from the 10 meter Ion Pulse or 4 meter Stockstrike proc. While the Trooper is setting up these 30 meter abilities to go off at the same time they are closing the gap to their target. In the curent PTS build, their only gap closing DPS is to spam Hammer Shot and hope for a Plasma Cell DoT to apply for High Impact Bolt.

 

This is why a true gap closer is needed, like Storm as a base ability for all Vanguards.

[CJNJ]

Harpoon.

 

It may be affected by resolve, but you definitely can't pretend it doesn't close gaps in a sterile environment.

 

Great, now you can reach 1 guy every 45 sec before running into the same problem

[DacRycar]

As stated in other threads, Harpoon is not viable. It cannot be used in PvE against bosses.

 

In addition, it stacks a high amount of Resolve, so further CC of the target is reduced. It also removes them from others attempting to damage the target. All of which makes a team very angry.

 

Harpoon is NOT an effective gap closer.

Edited September 13, 2012 by DacRycar

[-Holmes]

Great, now you can reach 1 guy every 45 sec before running into the same problem

 

Then by all means, jedi classes should not be able to leap you while your resolve is full, to even the field.

[DacRycar]

Then by all means, jedi classes should not be able to leap you while your resolve is full, to even the field.

 

I like this guy's thinking!

[Grogget]

After all that, the original question remains unanswered. So I'll state it again: Does Sticky Grenade retain its 30m range as a Vanguard? Yes/No?

[Altheran]

After all that, the original question remains unanswered. So I'll state it again: Does Sticky Grenade retain its 30m range as a Vanguard? Yes/No?

 

They didn't say the range will be reduced, so logic says it will still be 30m.

[Gyronamics]

Meh, logic, wait til someone confirms 30m sticky from test.

 

Sticky isn't really that bad damage-wise compared to plastique.

 

Aoe effect has its ups and downs but it's still a timed grenade you can stack with other attacks.

[Evuo]

Assuming these abilities are still working correctly as mirrors of each other:

 

On my PTS powertech, I can confirm explosive dart (sticky grenade mirror) has retained its 30m range. In addition, explosive dart and thermal detonator (assault plastique mirror) no longer share a cooldown.

[Haggardbr]

I wonder what's going on, "nobody asked me" (just a manner of speaking) if I wanted to have the distances of my abilities nerfed.

 

For cryo grenade I won't complain much because I only use it like 85% of the times in close range, but the Assault Plastique!!!!!!! WTH BIOWARE!!!!!

 

I don't want to be a close quarters fighter vanguard... I want to deal damage from medium / long range, that's why I chose the freaking Assault Specialist tree to work with.

 

Assault Plastique, in my opinion, is to be use from long range while you get close and keep yourself away from melee attacks from mobs that the tank is "kiteing".

 

If i wanted to fight in close quarters I would've chosen to be a Shield Specialist.

 

I don't know about the rest of you vanguards out there, but I am completely against this range nerf and to me this is because of the PvP cry babies that can't bring a vanguard down because they say we're too much OP.

 

BIOWARE, IF YOU WANT TO NERF AN OVERPOWERED CLASS, NERF THE FREAKING MARAUDERS!

 

This game is not only about PvP, there are people (like me) that prefer to stick to PvE a lot more and these changes will affect us in a huge way!

[Kitru]

I don't want to be a close quarters fighter vanguard... I want to deal damage from medium / long range, that's why I chose the freaking Assault Specialist tree to work with.

 

To paraphrase the basic response you'd likely get from a developer, "if you wanted to DPS at medium/long range, you chose the wrong AC".

 

The range nerf wasn't simply to address PvP concerns. One of the major concerns given by the developers was actually PvE Assault VGs who were tough as nails, highly mobile, and still did excellent damage from a distance. In essence, they got to have their cake, pie, cheesecake, and various other delicious desserts while eating them as well. The range nerf was applied specifically to force all VGs to operate within the melee/short range, where incoming damage is more common and mobility and visibility are often restricted due to positioning, because that was what the developers intended VGs to operate at the entire time and what they balanced them around. Having the level of survivability that they could while maintaining the same mobility and damage made them more powerful than intended (since they were sturdier and never had to hard cast anything like they would have if they were a "true" ranged class).

 

If you wanted to be a ranged Trooper, you should have played a Commando. If you're finally surprised that the developers finally got around to making the melee Trooper AC actually operate in melee with all specs, you went into it with rather unrealistic expectations (either that or you're one of the people that refused to read the AC selection window when you were level 10 and chose the AC without really understanding it, which means that it's still your fault for having unrealistic expectations).

[Haggardbr]

To paraphrase the basic response you'd likely get from a developer, "if you wanted to DPS at medium/long range, you chose the wrong AC".

 

The range nerf wasn't simply to address PvP concerns. One of the major concerns given by the developers was actually PvE Assault VGs who were tough as nails, highly mobile, and still did excellent damage from a distance. In essence, they got to have their cake, pie, cheesecake, and various other delicious desserts while eating them as well. The range nerf was applied specifically to force all VGs to operate within the melee/short range, where incoming damage is more common and mobility and visibility are often restricted due to positioning, because that was what the developers intended VGs to operate at the entire time and what they balanced them around. Having the level of survivability that they could while maintaining the same mobility and damage made them more powerful than intended (since they were sturdier and never had to hard cast anything like they would have if they were a "true" ranged class).

 

If you wanted to be a ranged Trooper, you should have played a Commando. If you're finally surprised that the developers finally got around to making the melee Trooper AC actually operate in melee with all specs, you went into it with rather unrealistic expectations (either that or you're one of the people that refused to read the AC selection window when you were level 10 and chose the AC without really understanding it, which means that it's still your fault for having unrealistic expectations).

 

I understood everything that you said, for real, but let's think better...

 

If i wanted to stay in melee range and if assault vanguards were supposed to be in melee range (except the Shield Specialist since their role is pretty clear that they need to stay in such range and withstand damage while others DPS from distance), they should use blades / sabers and not rifles.

 

I know it's something implemented since the beginning but it's kinda nonsense.

 

I already have a Commando, but mine is a Combat Medic and I rerolled a Vanguard because I wanted to do damage from medium range (not longe range as Gunslingers / Snipers) and still use the heavy armor and blaster rifle.

 

As I said above, to me, nerfing the cryo grenade is no big deal since I use the harpoon to bring the stronger mobs close to me, then use it, stock strike / riot and then back off to damage from distance ( ~20 mt) but nerfing the assault plastique to me is nonsense.

 

You may not agree with what I'm saying, but I'm pretty sure that many other assault vanguards out there that read what I just said will agree with me.

 

Yesterday I was having a group convo among the assault vanguards in my guild and they all said that I've got a point with all of this.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Haggardbr

[Altheran]

Assuming these abilities are still working correctly as mirrors of each other:

 

On my PTS powertech, I can confirm explosive dart (sticky grenade mirror) has retained its 30m range. In addition, explosive dart and thermal detonator (assault plastique mirror) no longer share a cooldown.

 

I'm surprised they don't share their cooldown anymore.

[DacRycar]

As I said above, to me, nerfing the cryo grenade is no big deal since I use the harpoon to bring the stronger mobs close to me, then use it, stock strike / riot and then back off to damage from distance ( ~20 mt)...

 

...You may not agree with what I'm saying, but I'm pretty sure that many other assault vanguards out there that read what I just said will agree with me.

 

Meanwhile:

 

Everyone is laughing at you.

 

Vanguards and Powertechs who use Harpoon as a opening "gap closer" are laughed at by those I PvP with. My server's top Sentinel goes into a laughing fit whenever that happens to him. The Sages and Commandos giggle when it happens to them. The Guardians shrug it off and proceed the beat the ever-living poodoo out of them. I feel pity for those who use harpoon and grapple in such a fashion; its such an ineffective means to begin DPS, even in 1.4.

 

In 1.4, the rotation should be Ion Pulse, High Impact Bolt, Stockstrike or Ion Pulse again, Assault Plastique, procced High Impact Bolt.

 

Harpoon to Stockstrike is a sad joke and you should be ashamed of yourself!

Edited September 17, 2012 by DacRycar

[Kitru]

they should use blades / sabers and not rifles.

 

Because Scoundrels aren't a melee class that uses a gun and Sages aren't a ranged class that uses a blade? How you think a weapon should be used has less to do with how a class should and/or will be used and more to do with how the class that uses the weapon is intended to use it. Most games already have painfully inaccurate depictions of how weapons are used (I'm still trying to figure out how a Scoundrel does more damage by punching someone bare fisted than s/he does by letting loose with 7 shots of blaster fire or nailing them with a shotgun to the back of the head). It's a game. As such, you sacrifice assumptions of realism to account for necessary requirements for balance. If your assumptions about a class are different than the developer intent and implementation for a class even when you've been warned about from *when you first selected your AC*, it's not really something you should be all that surprised about. Using a gun doesn't give you any more right to be ranged than it does to expect to be melee when using a lightsaber.

 

I already have a Commando, but mine is a Combat Medic and I rerolled a Vanguard because I wanted to do damage from medium range (not longe range as Gunslingers / Snipers) and still use the heavy armor and blaster rifle.

 

So you pretty much chose to play a VG because you didn't like having to use the assault cannon to DPS? That's not an especially good reason, especially since you have to make sacrifices when operating within the class-based game system TOR uses. Your claim is as "legitimate" as those of the Shadows that complain about having to use a DBLS rather than a single saber, the Sages that complain about never *using* their sabers whatsoever, and the multitude of other players that have complaints about weapons and combat options not being viable or possible when there is a lore- or reality-based reason that it should be in game. Just because you want it does not necessarily mean that it should be in game, especially when it's contradictory to the intended role and balance of a class.

 

Also, all of the ranged DPS ACs (Sages, Commandos, as well as GS) are long range. Gunslingers get the extra 5m range to offset the fact that they operate behind cover, preferably natural cover which restricts their positional options; they get the extra range to give them some wiggle room with cover selection. The only real ranges in game a melee (4m), short (10m), and long (30m). The only "medium" range delineation existed within the minds of Assault VG players that didn't want to admit that they were running around at long ranges with minor incursions into short range to refresh HiB.

 

Yesterday I was having a group convo among the assault vanguards in my guild and they all said that I've got a point with all of this.

 

Just because the people you socialize with agree with you doesn't mean you're right. Most of the time, people tend to spend time with people that don't like to point out the glaring errors of their logic or try to make them realize that they're wrong. Rather than simply screaming about how terrible these changes are and screaming that they should be undone and that they're completely unjust and unwarranted, try actually considering that the changes might actually be appropriate because you're using the class in a completely unintended and undesirable way that, honestly, is stronger than the spec was intended to be.

 

Your argument can pretty much be summed up as "I picked Assault VG as my class/spec because I gave me everything I wanted even though it's, honestly, too strong". If you're really stuck on using a Blaster Rifle at range, use one on your Commando; your damage will be lower, but that's the price you sometimes gotta pay to have the range you want, with the armor you want, with the weapon you want and it doesn't mesh with the class balance designs of the developers.

[Haggardbr]

Ok then, I'm "Mr. Wrong" here because I think differently than you.

 

If the range of the toon I play the most is going to be nerfed, then I also want Marauders to be nerfed and the leap from force users and the harpoon from vanguards to be removed from the game.

 

There... now it's fair for everyone... they will need to run for their targets instead of jumping in or bringing them close to you.

 

According to your thoughts I'm going to be wrong with what I'm about to say too, but I never saw a trooper doing melee attacks or being in melee range in the movies.

 

Whatever...

[DacRycar]

...but I never saw a trooper doing melee attacks or being in melee range in the movies.

 

Whatever...

 

In the movies, they also stood up about as well as a paper doll in a hurricane.

 

However, when I think of a Vanguard punching someone with the butt of their blaster, I think of another supersoldier who was known to

Edited September 17, 2012 by DacRycar

[Gyronamics]

On my PTS powertech, I can confirm explosive dart (sticky grenade mirror) has retained its 30m range. In addition, explosive dart and thermal detonator (assault plastique mirror) no longer share a cooldown.

 

How odd.

 

That would actually be a buff of sorts.

 

Two timed grenades to use.

[DacRycar]

How odd.

 

That would actually be a buff of sorts.

 

Two timed grenades to use.

 

Well you know that's going to get fixed right quick.