Urael Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Hey All ... Let's discuss whether or not SWTOR is the first or amongst the first "winnable" MMORPGs. What' I mean by "winnable" is an easily defined "personal" end point that is actually reachable and will prolly be the point at which one may actually move on because well "They beat the game". For me as an avid alt player, I will prolly loose interest after I have hit 50 on the 20 or so toons I play on (which is happening more rapidly in this game than any other I have played in). In general for me, unless I find a reason "in game" to stick with a game, I usually "leave" after I hit Level Cap on all the combinations of classes/races in a game. I still have an active WoW account, not so much because WoW is a great game but because I have family and friends that play WoW and I like to hang out with them. Unless I find guilds on my PvE servers pretty soon I will prolly stop after I hit CAP on all my alts. I will continue to try out the new content as it is released but I will prolly not stay a "regular" player. Will I stay subbed even if my interest wanes? Yes, because I am in a situation were I can roll with 4 to 5 active subs and it's no big deal for me. I realize others may not beable to do the same and have to be more discerning in choosing where to spend thier cash. I toss this out as, I am an outlier when it comes to compiling stats on subs. I tend to remain subbed even if not playing so as to have the option of going back at anytime (especially if the game that has my current attention is down or inaccessable for a time). Given what I have said, "winnable" could apply to every MMORPG I have played as I have defined it but, I have the feeling after reading these forums for some time that there are many of you who have the feeling that SWTOR is as "winnable" as any stand alone RPG for your own reasons. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Mistake #1 of an MMO: making it "winnable". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 Mistake #1 of an MMO: making it "winnable". I wasn't implying a MMORPG should be "winnable". I am of the school of thought that a MMORPG should never be "winnable." The "winnable" conditions, for me, are easier to reach in SWTOR as opposed to any other MMORPG that I have played so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 I wasn't implying a MMORPG should be "winnable". I am of the school of thought that a MMORPG should never be "winnable." The "winnable" conditions, for me, are easier to reach in SWTOR as opposed to any other MMORPG that I have played so far. I was agreeing with you. I was refering to the emphasis on endgame that is prevalent in MMO's today. It seems counterproductive to me when their emphasis should be on keeping the player hooked for as long as possible. It's like going to a movie that is really crappy, but it has awesome end credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 I was agreeing with you. I was refering to the emphasis on endgame that is prevalent in MMO's today. It seems counterproductive to me when their emphasis should be on keeping the player hooked for as long as possible. It's like going to a movie that is really crappy, but it has awesome end credits. Cool. I wasn't sure if I made that clear in my OP. Hmmm sounds like you saw Star Trek 5 in the theaters too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Mistake #1 of an MMO: making it "winnable". I disagree. You should be able to 'win' a lot and in various ways. The sandbox players suggest that you should make your own fun and that the game give you a palette with which to do that. I don't disagree with that assessment, but for a themepark MMO, there's should be plenty of 'attractions' for all different types of players and it should be possible to 'win'. And when folks do 'win' there should be another attraction for them to play next. A themepark can expect you to ride the same attractions multiple times, but it needs to have the variety so that the player doesn't burn out. To take the analogy a bit further, a themepark with one roller coaster would get old very quick. SWTOR's problem in my opinion is that the very good leveling game can be won, but then you run headlong into a pretty boring endgame gear grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalfear Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Personally the first winnable MMORPG was WOW to me Fast easy sloppy design that you could complete RIFT also at launch was beatable (though upcoming expansion suggests they have learned the lesson about this and gone in opposite direction of fast sloppy easy design And yes TOR is as well Not the first beatable but is one of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 I disagree. You should be able to 'win' a lot and in various ways. The sandbox players suggest that you should make your own fun and that the game give you a palette with which to do that. I don't disagree with that assessment, but for a themepark MMO, there's should be plenty of 'attractions' for all different types of players and it should be possible to 'win'. And when folks do 'win' there should be another attraction for them to play next. A themepark can expect you to ride the same attractions multiple times, but it needs to have the variety so that the player doesn't burn out. To take the analogy a bit further, a themepark with one roller coaster would get old very quick. SWTOR's problem in my opinion is that the very good leveling game can be won, but then you run headlong into a pretty boring endgame gear grind. A game is over when you win. A subscription is over when the game is over. This is the mistake they made, in my opinion. The majority of players do not reach the endgame or if they reach the level required, they PvP, roleplay, or they roll and play alts. Concentrating on "endgame content" will only appeal to some players. Others will want an emphasis on roleplaying tools (ie. sandbox features), open world PvP, or alts. TOR fails miserably on the RP features, and the levelling game is overly simple, fast, and overall PvE gameplay is highly repetitive, no matter the class. I don't PvP so I can't comment on that. The emphasis on endgame is what will kill this game much faster than it deserves. People won't play for years like they did other MMO's, and without that, it is doomed to a short life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) Hey All ... Let's discuss whether or not SWTOR is the first or amongst the first "winnable" MMORPGs. What' I mean by "winnable" is an easily defined "personal" end point that is actually reachable and will prolly be the point at which one may actually move on because well "They beat the game". A lot of people have played this MMO precisely as though it was a single player game, and never subscribed as a result. It was a common comment early in the life of the forum. Not much anymore, as these people "beat" the game and discarded it. Part of this was aggravated by the fact that Bioware's product reputation prior to SWTOR release was mostly single player games to be beaten and discarded. But MMOs are never truly winnable IMO, because there is always something else to do, and new content being patched in. But individual player tastes and preferences may make people feel like they won and move on anyway. Since it's an MMO, I think it's more about having "consumed all that is desired" rather then "winning" anything. Edited September 4, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellbrass Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Nah, Star Trek Online deserves that title. People had reached max level and finished all endgame content within their first free 30 days, even me and i'm not exactly a hardcore mmo player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 A lot of people have played this MMO precisely as though it was a single player game, and never subscribed as a result. The game pretty much stears people in the Single Player Direction. Since pretty much every class is selfsufficent with their companions and with practicle and non-reckless combat practicess one need never consume the group content to get to level cap. It was a common comment early in the life of the forum. Not much anymore, as these people "beat" the game and discarded it. Part of this was aggravated by the fact that Bioware's product reputation prior to SWTOR release was mostly single player games to be beaten and discarded. As I said in other threads, I am of the play while you are still having fun camp, as are you. I haven't exhausted my "fun" yet but, can see it's horizon. It's only 9months in and I can see the horizon of my time here. I hope that horizon gets extended with 1.4. So, I guess "some of us" are still here? But MMOs are never truly winnable IMO, because there is always something else to do, and new content being patched in. But individual player tastes and preferences may make people feel like they won and move on anyway. Since it's an MMO, I think it's more about having "consumed all that is desired" rather then "winning" anything. Agreed which is why at the end of my OP I made the carification that I did. For me the "consumed all that is desired" is being reach rapidly in SWTOR compared to other MMORPGs that I have played. I guess its a matter of YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 A game is over when you win. A subscription is over when the game is over. This is the mistake they made, in my opinion. The majority of players do not reach the endgame or if they reach the level required, they PvP, roleplay, or they roll and play alts. Concentrating on "endgame content" will only appeal to some players. Others will want an emphasis on roleplaying tools (ie. sandbox features), open world PvP, or alts. TOR fails miserably on the RP features, and the levelling game is overly simple, fast, and overall PvE gameplay is highly repetitive, no matter the class. I don't PvP so I can't comment on that. The emphasis on endgame is what will kill this game much faster than it deserves. People won't play for years like they did other MMO's, and without that, it is doomed to a short life. Agreed. SWTOR needs more "community building" features. Those features tend to be more "sandbox"-like elements. The emphasis on endgame tends toward a gear grind tredmill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenzali Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Beat Heroic Deathwing months and months ago. So definitely not the "first". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Agreed. SWTOR needs more "community building" features. Those features tend to be more "sandbox"-like elements. The emphasis on endgame tends toward a gear grind tredmill. Agreed!!! - housing/decorating - mini-games (co-op and vs.) - shops for crafters - faction rewards for PvP (temp PvE buffs to XP/damage/healing) - non-combat activities - random events - spread them across planets so 10's see 50's doing stuff Things that draw us together...not like the last event where we all fought for one object, but things that allow us all to work on things together, despite our level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elear Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 And here I thought that only way to win MMO was to uninstall it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 And here I thought that only way to win MMO was to uninstall it. Actually the only way to win is not to play but, many of us have had this jones for so long it may be terminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Agreed. SWTOR needs more "community building" features. Those features tend to be more "sandbox"-like elements. The emphasis on endgame tends toward a gear grind tredmill. While I agree that endgame gear grinds are not the way, you don't need to have sandbox features to have good community features. City of Heroes is a theme park all the way, but its community is very strong as can be seen from the outpouring of support after its cancellation notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sippix Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 I think for people that engage in PVE content, this game is easily "winnable." The HM Flashpoints and Operations in this game are laughably easy compared to most any other game. In WoW, clearing an entire Raid instance in one evening on normal mode was a huge feat for the average guild (before normal mode bosses are ritualistically nerfed in subsequent patches, mind you), especially if not all the raid members were 'geared'. Hell, it was a HUGE deal for most guilds to make it half-way through a normal mode raid in one night, let alone completely clear it. In TOR, an entire HM Operation can be cleared in a matter of two to three hours. You don't even need a full guild run! You can just pug most of your Op group and you're gtg. This is Hardmode end-game content we're talking about here. This isn't a Hardmode Flashpoint - this is a hardmode RAID that can be cleared in one single night by a PUG. And if you don't get your construction kit (which is dang near impossible to not pick up at least ONE for your class), that's okay!, because you've picked up enough tokens (of whatever type) to just go BUY a piece of gear after every Operation. This game's PVE content is simply far too easy and even the mouth breathers are getting bored with the end-game pve content because it's just so dang easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laris_Rai Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 The first winnable MMO was WoW. Some guy in Taiwan got EVERY acheivement in the whole game. After taking screenshots for proof he deleated his account so he can go back to real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreePrometheus Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 In short: No. Yes, the in game storyline provides a sort of goal. But, the game carries on pass that. If you're like me, you have RP to do. There are still PVP and warzones etc... There are still goals to meet. What needs to be remembered is most MMO's have some sort of "end" which is why you fill your time with the smaller things rather than just rush through so you can say "I'm level (Insert number)" Or what have you. I have been playing a little while now, and i dont have a character that is past chapter 1 of their stories. Mainly because i Roleplay and explore. I'm fine with not having progressed much as i am enjoying the other things i get up to. Plus, (And lets not start the new content discussion) , the level caps will be increased, there are new things that come out. new warzones, and possibly new or extended storylines. So, let me slightly change what i said: Yes, it is a "winnable" MMO if you are only talking of storylines. Otherwise, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hessen Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) City of Heroes had literally no endgame for a couple of years apart from a single 100 man raid boss. As soon as you were 50 that was it. Either spend your time showing off your costume to the lowbies in the starter zone, or repeat old content. No mini-games, no faction grind, no gear grind, no point in having money. Edited September 4, 2012 by Hessen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreePrometheus Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 City of Heroes had literally no endgame for a couple of years apart from a single 100 man raid boss. As soon as you were 50 that was it. Either spend your time showing off your costume to the lowbies in the starter zone, or repeat old content. No mini-games, no faction grind, no gear grind, no point in having money. Agreed, there are one or two games like that. I am in hope that this will not be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hessen Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 To be fair, TOR already has more than nothing. In fact, out of all of the MMOs I've played, TOR has more endgame content after 9 months than any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreePrometheus Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 To be fair, TOR already has more than nothing. In fact, out of all of the MMOs I've played, TOR has more endgame content after 9 months than any of them. Hence my hope I'm taking that as a good omen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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