Jugg Vs. Marauder DPS

[AloneJedeye]

Before I begin, I've done some research before I ask this question. I've referenced YouTube videos on Jugg DPS, TORhead, and Noxxic, but none of them seem to give me the answer I am looking for.

 

Question: Why is Marauder DPS better than Jugg? What makes it stand out? What makes them more viable to bring to a (excuse my WoW terminology--still new to this game) raid or heroic?

 

I keep hearing how Jugg is good for PvP, and is better for tanking. Well, I don't care so much for PvP in swtor, but I do like the fact that I can switch from DPS and tanking to help which ever guild I join in any circumstance.

 

Thanks in advance!

[JamieM]

Before I begin, I've done some research before I ask this question. I've referenced YouTube videos on Jugg DPS, TORhead, and Noxxic, but none of them seem to give me the answer I am looking for.

 

Question: Why is Marauder DPS better than Jugg? What makes it stand out? What makes them more viable to bring to a (excuse my WoW terminology--still new to this game) raid or heroic?

 

I keep hearing how Jugg is good for PvP, and is better for tanking. Well, I don't care so much for PvP in swtor, but I do like the fact that I can switch from DPS and tanking to help which ever guild I join in any circumstance.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Essentially it boils down to Marauders having 2 sabers to our 1 - and most of the Marauder's attacks attack with 2 sabers. Plus they have the stat boost from the offhand lightsaber which is waaay better than the stats off our crappy focus/generator. Also they are a pure dps class as opposed to ours which has a split function so its likely it is BW's intention to make them the better damage dealer (potentially).

[i_noface_i]

Essentially it boils down to Marauders having 2 sabers to our 1 - and most of the Marauder's attacks attack with 2 sabers. Plus they have the stat boost from the offhand lightsaber which is waaay better than the stats off our crappy focus/generator. Also they are a pure dps class as opposed to ours which has a split function so its likely it is BW's intention to make them the better damage dealer (potentially).

 

Could not be more right

[wadecounty]

I will add, Juggernaut DPS is actually within 5% of Mara's and a well played Juggernaut can easily do more DPS than a Marauder that isn't played to its full potential.

 

However, Marauders also have superior survivability cooldowns and raid buffs, and that ultimately is the real difference maker.

 

I think the Juggernaut/Guardian should get some sort of a raid buff to compete with Mara/Sentinel personally, I'm fine with where our DPS is at though. Maybe some sort of a defensive cooldown that gives the raid +10% damage reduction or something, only usable in Shien or Shi-Cho to keep from unbalancing tanks and giving Jugg tanks too many defensive cd's.

[Elyx]

Wade is correct. a well played Jugg can be within 5% of a Mara. given optimal environment. a few things come into play that can change the outcome.

 

1) after leveling both, I find that a Mara is simply easier to get the DPS out of. I had to work hard to refine my skill use on my jugg, where with my Mara it just sort of comes out. spam burst, maintain, spam burst....the basic DPS rotaion is simpler on a mara.

 

2) this falls in with #1 a bit. The current popular build for Mara's in Ops heavily emphasizes bleeds...Mara's bleeds are better then a Jugg's, and this is an advantage in fights where there's movement involved...and there's allot of movement in Op fights.

 

3) Player perception. Even if Juggs were 100% the DPS of Mara's, people would still believe Mara's were top DPS...because so-and-so said so, and I know he knows what he's doing. Perception is the biggest killer of Jugg DPS. Add into that the perception of the range bias in Ops (which has solid foundation in truth...just look at the second boss in LI, the robot....people dread having melee DPS in pugs in that place).

 

4) Jugg's can tank, but rarely is an off-tank needed in an Op. they excel in small group situations, where being able to control and survive a mob on you helps (plus all of our other utility), but in an Op, the Mara's group heals + the Maras group DPS boost (on a medium CD), really stand out .

 

When I say stand out, I mean that its visible when they do it...most people don't notice the continual armor reduction Jugg's provide...because it's always there. it's a good debuff too...but people just don't notice it. But when a Mara pops BT....everyone sees the temporary spike in damage. it's like a crit...people always see crits, but they often ignore bleed damage numbers, which is why a DoT class looks like it does less damage then a burst class, even if it doesn't. In the same way, the marauders group buff looks great...and people ignore the armor debuff we provide from beginning to end....because its on the mob, easy to miss, and always there.

 

It's things like that that skew the perception of players in favor of the Mara. Add in the fact that even when optimally played (both classes), Jugg's are still around 5% behind Mara's. Both can put out enough DPS for a group to survive and beat the harshest Ops in the game....but that extra 5% just looks better.

[Bare-Giin]

In the rage tree (the tree they share) juggs do more dmg, at least more burst.. its a pvp tree but i have done EV hm and KP nightmare with it tho, with no problems =)

[dominius]

From a raiding perspective I don't buy into the fact that Marauders are better than Juggernauts. They both have their uses and they both can pull great DPS when played properly. The player behind the class is going to determine DPS far more than the class itself.

[wadecounty]

From a raiding perspective I don't buy into the fact that Marauders are better than Juggernauts. They both have their uses and they both can pull great DPS when played properly. The player behind the class is going to determine DPS far more than the class itself.

 

While this is true, that's not always the sole factor. Sometimes you're put in a situation where Jim the Juggernaut and Bob the Marauder would both like to go, but John the Sniper signed up first this week. Unfortunately, John isn't the best player. As a raid leader, you'd like to take Jim the Juggernaut, because he's a really good player and does plenty of DPS for EC HM, but Bob the Marauder can do just a bit more, and along with his raid buffs, will make it easier for you to compensate for John's subpar DPS.

[dominius]

While this is true, that's not always the sole factor. Sometimes you're put in a situation where Jim the Juggernaut and Bob the Marauder would both like to go, but John the Sniper signed up first this week. Unfortunately, John isn't the best player. As a raid leader, you'd like to take Jim the Juggernaut, because he's a really good player and does plenty of DPS for EC HM, but Bob the Marauder can do just a bit more, and along with his raid buffs, will make it easier for you to compensate for John's subpar DPS.

 

I should have clarified I was coming at it from a progression raiding perspective where you don't use sign-ups and you don't carry bad people through content.

 

Still, the point is the same that I was making, they both have their uses. In your example you need extra DPS. There are also situations where you would want a DPS with a taunt to make things easier, in which case you might be better off taking a Juggernaut over a Marauder.

[Terro_Fett]

As a main spec Vengeance Jugg in PVE, our biggest problem is not our numbers, but rather the lack of utility we bring to encounters. Mauraders bring Bloodthirst which is an amazing buff. While we bring an armor debuff, this can be gained elsewhere (such as with a Jugger Tank).

 

In my raid group I am sort of lucky that our tanks are a Powertech and Assassin, so my utility is actually very useful.

 

Now as far as actual DPS numbers go, we are more than fine. I am consistently 2nd highest raid DPS, just under our Maurader, who does outgear me a bit. Sometimes I'll beat him, but not very often. I am always very close behind him however, pulling approx. 1300-1400 DPS (depending on how Melee friendly the fight is) and my gear has A LOT of room for improvement.

 

All we really need are some tweaks to make us more attractive for raid groups.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Terro_Fett

[Griad]

Group buffs is the marauders force, their damage is great but my vengence jugger is very much on par with our similiar geared marauder. Sometimes i will pull more damage and sometimes the marauder will do more damage.

 

Its just as much a question of luck, to be honest if my ravage cd resets when it can i will come out on top and if one person hits alot of crits they will deal more damage.

[bliapis]

Im a full Black Hoke Sentinel.

 

My gear has been farmed extensivelly for mods and enchancements to the point ever bit of armor has been thought out and hunt out to be complete.

 

My biggest drawback is while my sabers are also tailored with mods and enchancements L61, my hilts are still L58.

 

And a big junk of damage comes directly out of the hilt.

 

 

My dps on the OPS dummy, fully buffed + might stim is at 1730+. I can keep that indefinitelly even when the ability lag and server various asynchs, in the long term my dps will stabilize a little over 1730.

 

I cant imagine there is a Jug with the same quality of equip (or even better, with L61 hilts) that can come close to my level of DPS.

[jasonthelamb]

Mara's do a lot more DPS because their rotation is extremely simply, whereas a Jugg rotation you build rage, ravage, hope for proc, ravage, etc... all while moving around, usually.

 

That's the big killer for Juggs, I pull my fair share of DPS as a Jugg DPS, actually I'm usually only out-DPSed by one person in our group, and I always out DPS our Mara...

 

But big thing as I said, is rotation, Juggernaut is probably the most gear-depending AC you will play, so gear, and rotation are key, but a maximized Mara vs. a maximized Jugg, the Mara will almost always win, mainly because of what they bring to the raid in terms of bloodthirst... and what does a Jugg bring? Nothing other than DPS....

 

Sunder Armor doesn't stack anymore, so that was the big thing for Juggs... and we don't have any raid-wide abilities to help us out.

[bliapis]

Basically Jugs do as much damage as any other DPS except sentinels/marauders and GS/Snipers. There is nothing extraordinary there except the odd taunt here and then (which act as a bonus and not a requirement).

 

I was always of the mind that all DPS should be up to par, whether hybrids or pures, it doesnt matter. Once they are into a role should have the same potential as any other.

[Teioh_White]

I do Jugger dps, and what everyone's said is basically the case. Our damage isn't really that much worse than anyone else, it's just outside our Sunder (Which you can get with Jugger tank/Merc dps/Sniper) we don't bring anything to the team.

 

We have no CC, we're melee, so we have that drawback on some fights. Our AoE isn't shabby for clearing the trash out in an Op, I suppose, but the only boss fight that's really a factor in is Kephess. Taunt is somewhat useful, as i've been able to flip to soresu, taunt, and saberward when the tank goes down, just giving the real tank the 12 seconds or so he needs to get rezzed and back in the action.

 

As for my damage, on a Dummy I generally average around 1590, as I generally just do few 3 min parses, and that's small enough time for Ravage procs to mess things up. Of course, our damage gets a boost under 30%, with every 4 GCD being a 1 rage, 100% Crit V.Throw. Can't parse that on the dummy though, and no fight really is a perfect 100% up time solo fight, so I can't tell ya how that factors in there. Until Orange offhands come out, there isn't anywhere left for my gear to go, so I think that's my Juggs limit.

[Elyx]

As for my damage, on a Dummy I generally average around 1590, as I generally just do few 3 min parses, and that's small enough time for Ravage procs to mess things up. Of course, our damage gets a boost under 30%, with every 4 GCD being a 1 rage, 100% Crit V.Throw. Can't parse that on the dummy though, and no fight really is a perfect 100% up time solo fight, so I can't tell ya how that factors in there. Until Orange offhands come out, there isn't anywhere left for my gear to go, so I think that's my Juggs limit.

 

anything above 1400 is good enough for 98% of the current content. Proof in the pudding that juggs can do it. the damage numbers are all still close enough to each other that skill > class. Anyone who picks a player just because they are "X" class are shorting themselves and the players involved.