Why Bioware should shift most of their focus to PvP

[Andryah]

Eh. The majority of the threads on the PvP forum are mainly complaints and nerf threads. While I do wish and hope they will give more content for PvP like giving intensives for open world PvP I know this is a PvE game and that is never going to change.

 

Exactly.

[anstalt]

I understand lots of people love pvp. But SWTOR was never about pvp.

 

Incorrect. Go back and watch, specifically, Gabe's pre-release youtube vids. He, as lead PvP and Operations developer, told us on repeated occasions that PvP would have an equal place at endgame alongside pve. Equal development, equal status in the communtiy, equal gear progression etc.

 

As he and other designers stated many times, in many interviews during development, this game is called Star Wars. They always intended to have large scale pvp in this game because that is at the very core of the IP.

 

So, whilst this game was never a pvp focused game, it was always stated as having large amounts of pvp in it.

 

We all knew that when we got the game.

 

Perhaps this is selective reading on your part and the part of the pve-only community. There were numerous blogs, interviews etc during development that stated SW:TOR would have a large PvP component, equal to that of the PvE component. Thats what they told us. Not what we imagined.

 

Realy developers should fokus on their strong sides and not try to make their worse sides better. They just end up making their strong side weaker, and their weak sides (expvp) will still not be as strong as the games fokusing on that.

 

Make your strong points even stronger. Develop your strenghts and market those strenghts. Accept that your not going to be best at everything, if you try that you just end up beeing mediocre at everything. And nobody wants to play a mediocre game.

 

This is where I agree with you. You were wrong about Bioware's focus on the game at launch regarding pve vs pvp, but you are right in the fact that now the game has launched, they should focus on pleasing the players that are left as well as focusing on attracting new players by utilising their strengths.

 

Basically, Bioware screwed the pooch with PvP. They also screwed the pooch with raiding. In my experience, the hardcore raiders left TOR well before the PvPers left.

 

However, whatever the case, Bioware need to do some serious metrics on what people are currently spending time doing in game, do some serious market research and then aim to develop two or three parts of this game in order to maximise retention of players as well as attraction of new players. If the in game metrics show that more people are spending time pvping than raiding then imo they should spend more time developing pvp. If the market research shows that actually, there is a massive gap in the market for a AAA MMO with amazing world pvp, then they should develop that. Similarly, if the market research and metrics says pander to the casual crowd, then I do believe they should do that and focus on casual content.

 

 

It is my personal belief that pvp in this game is probably second only to leveling alts in terms of time spent doing activities in game, and that Bioware should capitolise on this. There also doesn't seem to be a AAA MMO on the market atm which offers persistant world pvp with real meaning (read: objectives, owning bases, building bases, planetary rewards etc) and that SW:TOR could, if they wanted to, fill this gap and attract a long standing loyal fan base. However, it's a risky choice to make and given EA's history, it is one they are unlikely to make.

[Elyx]

It is a well know statistic OP. only about 5-10% of a games population actually posts on the forums regularly.

 

also, most people only post when they are dissatisfied, or looking for info

 

and PvP players tend to be dissatisfied allot....and they area always looking for more info. This skews the numbers drastically...especially in a game that is set up to be PvE friendly (a.k.a. you don't need to be a whiz to get through the game).

 

Your using a number without representing it in a realistic light as a way to manipulate the Dev's into doing more stuff for the aspect of the game you like (that others may not)

 

The good news is the Dev's actually really know how many people are playing PvP, and how often...and how many are not. So we will continue to get PvE content for the most part, with smaller (but still regular) PvP additions as well, because thats what really represents the population of this game....not a bunch of whiners in the forums.

 

Edit: this is not to Dis PvP, and i Hope others understand that. I've played PvP in many MMO's, my first being DAoC (which really was RvR...and a fun one at that). I've done BG's and Arena in WoW, I've done PvMP in LotRO, and I played Aion pretty seriously during it's first 1.5 years. But I've been around long enough to understand how games work, and I am not a fan of games that try to cater to more then one aspect of play (such as PvE and PvP at the same time). It never works. and this thread is a perfect example of why.

 

I appreciated Aion for its focus...PvP game, with PvE elements. And I like LotRO for its direct opposite approach...PvE with an Isolated PvMP game that had NO impact on PVE whatsoever. SWtOR is a PvE centric game. pure and simple. the Dev's stated this.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Elyx

[TUXs]

It is a well know statistic OP. only about 5-10% of a games population actually posts on the forums regularly.

 

Where'd you get that statistic from? 1990?

[Skorz]

PvP section of the forum:

37,260 Total Threads, 663,055 Total Posts

 

Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions section of the forum:

6,159 Total Threads, 66,567 Total Posts

 

While not a perfect metric, it should indicate what the majority of the player base has a vested interest in.

 

As an avid PvPer it would not take much to make me happy. New maps is all it would take. They don't even have to be AWESOME new maps, they just have to be NEW maps. Look at Call of Duty; they sell a game for $60 and then charge $15 every quarter for 4-5 new maps. It seems like this would fit in very well with the new F2P model.

 

That is because 90% of those PvP related posts are "buff this and nerf that".

[Elyx]

Where'd you get that statistic from? 1990?

 

I've never seen data contrary to this. Although on the flip side, there are many games that are purely PvP games. These games would obviously have a higher percentage of PvP players.

 

But if you have other information, by all means provide it. I'm willing to change my opinion on that if its out there. But It doesn't make my point an less factual. This is a PvE game. The larger percentage of players in the Game do PvE. Even the PvP players do PvE. They have stated multiple times that this is a PvE game and they will not make change based on PvP only that would impact the PvE game.

 

And im not responsible for any player opinions about whether they make change for PvP only or not. And I also don't want to get sidetracked into an argument about said changes. this thread was about the Op convincing the general populace about something that isn't correct, and using misleading numbers to prove it.

 

Edit: now that you think about it...the last time I heard about numbers seriously was from a dev post here. previous to that, it was Dev's on the WOW forums during the wraith expansion iirc. And that's late 2000...not 1990. and they indicated that only aprox 5% of their player base regularly posted. Nice try making my data sound...dated. but I doubt the player base could change that drastically in a few years.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Elyx

[Elyx]

That is because 90% of those PvP related posts are "buff this and nerf that".

 

Not to mention they are usually the same people pretty regularly. you can have an argument about a specific aspect of play between 2-3 people and it can span dozens of pages, making a post look very "relevant" and add to numbers..when in reality it's two players who can't agree to disagree.

[TUXs]

Edit: now that you think about it...the last time I heard about numbers seriously was from a dev post here. previous to that, it was Dev's on the WOW forums during the wraith expansion iirc. And that's late 2000...not 1990. and they indicated that only aprox 5% of their player base regularly posted. Nice try making my data sound...dated. but I doubt the player base could change that drastically in a few years.

 

Your data is dated and wrong. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it right.

[bobmcbo]

Also remember what people use the forums for- many people use the pvp forum to discuss builds. People only seem to post on the pve forum when they're having trouble with something.

[Tickdoff-Tank]

If you are going to tell him that his data is wrong then you need to provide the data that you have found. Just saying he is wrong does not prove anything.

 

He has already stated that he is willing to revise his view if additional information was provided, but you have not done that, you just told him that he was wrong.

[Elyx]

Your data is dated and wrong. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it right.

 

Glad you feel that way. show me the evidence and I'll agree. Until then we'll agree to disagree. And my point that the OP is wrong still stand, no matter how much you want to isolate one aspect of my thread and argue against it

[Hessen]

So say there are about 500,000 current subscribers, 5% of that is 25,000 regular posters.

 

Got to say, that seem high if anything. I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption.

[Scorpienne]

TL;DR: Bioware should NOT shift most of their focus to PvP. The people on the PvP servers are less than 25% of the total population of players AND they are already leaving.

 

Hi there! I'm *that* person. The one with all the numbers. (LINK).

 

We have had some population declines, but look more closely at the numbers as of 8/27/2012. Who did we lose?

 

LINK HERE, go to the "SUMMARY STATS" tab and look to the right for the math.

 

PvE logins are at 99.7% of their original number (as of 6/27/2012).

RP-PvP logins are at 100.0% of their original number.

RP-PvE logins are at 120.0% of their original number, so that's a lot of growth.

PvP logins are at 81.4% of their original number, so that's a pretty big loss.

 

So yeah, we've lost some folks that have left for greener PvP pastures.

 

We've gained a *LOT* of RPers - Yay! In fact the biggest server these days is Beg Colony (US PST RP-PvE).

 

The PvE crowd is as big as it ever was (and it's 48% of the total pop).

The RP-PvE and PvP populations are each 24% of the total pop.

RP-PvE numbers have gone up 20% in the last two months.

PvP numbers have gone down 20% in the last two months.

RP-PvP is small (3.8% of the total pop) and they're not going anywhere (almost no change).

 

It makes much more business sense to focus on your PvE crowd because those are your most numerous subscribers and your RP-PvE crowd because that's your fastest growing population segment.

 

Paige

[nellosmomishot]

Look guys, I stated right in the first post that it wasn't a perfect metric. However, it is a fact that those are the number of posts in their respective forums. So please, stop making up statistics like only such and such percentage of players play that aspect of the game. It makes you look ignorant if you don't back it up with facts.

 

That being said, I don't see how you can say this game is largely focused on PvE at this point in time. There are currently only 3 operations. There are currently only 4 warzones. I know that there is a little more depth to the operations than the warzones, but that looks like pretty even development to me. I'm saying that in the FUTURE they should focus on PvP, instead of the nice split that they are doing now.

 

Before anyone says we have normal, hard and nightmare operations that makes 9. That's just a feature that improves existing content, not new content. Much like rated warzones were a feature to improve warzone quality, not additional content.

[Gruug]

PvP section of the forum:

37,260 Total Threads, 663,055 Total Posts

 

Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions section of the forum:

6,159 Total Threads, 66,567 Total Posts

 

While not a perfect metric, it should indicate what the majority of the player base has a vested interest in.

 

Edit: Please stop posting numbers like only 5-10% of the playerbase does such and such unless you have a link to where you got your statistics from. The only numbers I will be posting are above and those can be validated by going to http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=3

 

As an avid PvPer it would not take much to make me happy. New maps is all it would take. They don't even have to be AWESOME new maps, they just have to be NEW maps. Look at Call of Duty; they sell a game for $60 and then charge $15 every quarter for 4-5 new maps. It seems like this would fit in very well with the new F2P model.

 

I think the reason that people do not post in the Operation, Flashpoint sections is because they know how to play that particular aspect of the game and are doing so. They are not posting to complain that such and such a class is OP or that such and such a class should be nerfed or that their pet class is useless. PvP does not require co-ordination nor brains. And yes, I am serious about that.

[nellosmomishot]

TL;DR: Bioware should NOT shift most of their focus to PvP. The people on the PvP servers are less than 25% of the total population of players AND they are already leaving.

 

Hi there! I'm *that* person. The one with all the numbers. (LINK).

 

We have had some population declines, but look more closely at the numbers as of 8/27/2012. Who did we lose?

 

LINK HERE, go to the "SUMMARY STATS" tab and look to the right for the math.

 

PvE logins are at 99.7% of their original number (as of 6/27/2012).

RP-PvP logins are at 100.0% of their original number.

RP-PvE logins are at 120.0% of their original number, so that's a lot of growth.

PvP logins are at 81.4% of their original number, so that's a pretty big loss.

 

So yeah, we've lost some folks that have left for greener PvP pastures.

 

We've gained a *LOT* of RPers - Yay! In fact the biggest server these days is Beg Colony (US PST RP-PvE).

 

The PvE crowd is as big as it ever was (and it's 48% of the total pop).

The RP-PvE and PvP populations are each 24% of the total pop.

RP-PvE numbers have gone up 20% in the last two months.

PvP numbers have gone down 20% in the last two months.

RP-PvP is small (3.8% of the total pop) and they're not going anywhere (almost no change).

 

It makes much more business sense to focus on your PvE crowd because those are your most numerous subscribers and your RP-PvE crowd because that's your fastest growing population segment.

 

Paige

 

Thank you Paige. I appreciate you taking the time to post a response with legitimate numbers. I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion but I will respond later after I've had some time to think.

 

Edit: This is the only legitimate counter to my argument that I have seen so far. However, I'm not sure if your metric is any better than mine. I play on a PvE server and spend most of my time PvPing. There is little difference in terms of PvP participation with regards to what type of server you play on, especially in this game where the only PvP is instanced PvP.

Edited August 31, 2012 by nellosmomishot

[TUXs]

If you are going to tell him that his data is wrong then you need to provide the data that you have found. Just saying he is wrong does not prove anything.

 

He has already stated that he is willing to revise his view if additional information was provided, but you have not done that, you just told him that he was wrong.

 

No lol, believe him if you like, the burden of proof isn't on me to prove his foolish statement more false than it is.

 

My grandmother still mails me crap, buys stamps, asks me to set her VCR for her and likes to go to the bank. I bought a book of 10 Forever stamps about 2 years ago. I have 8 left. I haven't been to my bank ever, it's all done over the internet and THEY mail the crap I don't want to.

 

If you wanna believe that that statistic from 2000 is accurate, go for it. I have no desire to prove you're wrong, you just are. Times change.

[Tickdoff-Tank]

TL;DR: Bioware should NOT shift most of their focus to PvP. The people on the PvP servers are less than 25% of the total population of players AND they are already leaving.

 

Hi there! I'm *that* person. The one with all the numbers. (LINK).

 

We have had some population declines, but look more closely at the numbers as of 8/27/2012. Who did we lose?

 

LINK HERE, go to the "SUMMARY STATS" tab and look to the right for the math.

 

PvE logins are at 99.7% of their original number (as of 6/27/2012).

RP-PvP logins are at 100.0% of their original number.

RP-PvE logins are at 120.0% of their original number, so that's a lot of growth.

PvP logins are at 81.4% of their original number, so that's a pretty big loss.

 

So yeah, we've lost some folks that have left for greener PvP pastures.

 

We've gained a *LOT* of RPers - Yay! In fact the biggest server these days is Beg Colony (US PST RP-PvE).

 

The PvE crowd is as big as it ever was (and it's 48% of the total pop).

The RP-PvE and PvP populations are each 24% of the total pop.

RP-PvE numbers have gone up 20% in the last two months.

PvP numbers have gone down 20% in the last two months.

RP-PvP is small (3.8% of the total pop) and they're not going anywhere (almost no change).

 

It makes much more business sense to focus on your PvE crowd because those are your most numerous subscribers and your RP-PvE crowd because that's your fastest growing population segment.

 

Paige

 

Very interesting info, but the point others have been making in this thread is not about the number of people subscribing/logging in, it is about the % of people that use the forums. That does not make your data any less interesting, but it does not speak to the point that people were debating.

 

Edit: I agree with your statement that PvE is more important based on the numbers you provided, and I do not dispute them at all. But I maintain that those numbers are not very useful in determining the % of those players that are actively using the forums.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Tickdoff-Tank

[Tickdoff-Tank]

No lol, believe him if you like, the burden of proof isn't on me to prove his foolish statement more false than it is.

 

My grandmother still mails me crap, buys stamps, asks me to set her VCR for her and likes to go to the bank. I bought a book of 10 Forever stamps about 2 years ago. I have 8 left. I haven't been to my bank ever, it's all done over the internet and THEY mail the crap I don't want to.

 

If you wanna believe that that statistic from 2000 is accurate, go for it. I have no desire to prove you're wrong, you just are. Times change.

 

If you are refuting his data then the burden of proof IS on you. You can say "He is wrong" all you like, but without any evidence to back it up the you are spitting in the rain. His original claim of "Between 5 and 10 % of game players use the forums" is a statement that has been around a long time. That does not mean it is accurate, but it is used by many, many people and therefore is the starting point for his belief. I do not know if it is accurate or not, but I think that it is probably closer to the truth than a statement that "65% of players use the forums" (No, no one said that, I use it as an example).

 

And the number of people using the forums is at the heart of this discussion. You are pulling numbers from sections of the forums and comparing them to each other. That is a good way to draw a conclusion, but it is only PART of the info you need to make an ACCURATE statement.

 

With the info that you have listed (number of posts in each section), all you can really say is "Based on the number of posts in these areas of the forums; More people are interested in talking about PvP related issues than they are in OP/FP/Mission related issues. But you went 1 step further and made the conclusion that "This means that people care more about PvP than PvE."

 

But, if the actual number of people using the forums is 5% of the playerbase, then the 25,000 people on the forums (estimate based on 500,000 subs) are NOT a valid % of the playerbase to base policy decisions on. That (IMO) is the core of the disagreement to the OP. If the % of the playerbase using the forums is, in fact, near or above 50% then your original statement holds a lot more weight.

[Elyx]

Look guys, I stated right in the first post that it wasn't a perfect metric. However, it is a fact that those are the number of posts in their respective forums. So please, stop making up statistics like only such and such percentage of players play that aspect of the game. It makes you look ignorant if you don't back it up with facts.

 

That being said, I don't see how you can say this game is largely focused on PvE at this point in time. There are currently only 3 operations. There are currently only 4 warzones. I know that there is a little more depth to the operations than the warzones, but that looks like pretty even development to me. I'm saying that in the FUTURE they should focus on PvP, instead of the nice split that they are doing now.

 

Before anyone says we have normal, hard and nightmare operations that makes 9. That's just a feature that improves existing content, not new content. Much like rated warzones were a feature to improve warzone quality, not additional content.

 

So wait. You're saying that you can throw up numbers of posts and you're OK, but I put out a percentage number that has been a standard in the MMO industry for years, and has been verified by Dev's with major MMO's (roughly 5-10%), and I'm Ignorant?

 

Look...if you like PvP and you'd like the dev's to spend more time on PvP development, then I can appreciate that. like I said, I don't dislike PvP. But when you put up an arbitrary number that has no proven correlation to the facts whatsoever, and then state it as you're reason for telling the Dev's they should just drop PvE and do PvP full time....man, I certainly hope you understand how that makes you look.

[nellosmomishot]

Very interesting info, but the point others have been making in this thread is not about the number of people subscribing/logging in, it is about the % of people that use the forums. That does not make your data any less interesting, but it does not speak to the point that people were debating.

 

I think it is relevant. I didn't make the thread to debate the amount of people posting. I made the thread to debate what aspect of the game is worth developing. I just used the amount of people posting as evidence that more people are PvPing. He is using the number of logins as evidence that more people are PvEing.

 

However, my biggest issue with the data that he posted is that people on PvE and RP servers also PvP. I personally play on a PvE server, and would say that I PvP more than PvE on a 10:1 ratio. The only real difference between the different server types is that you can PvP in the black hole on a PvP server. However, as others have posted the PvP community is typically more vocal. So again, I dunno what to believe on this issue and that's why I made this thread.

Edited August 31, 2012 by nellosmomishot

[nellosmomishot]

So wait. You're saying that you can throw up numbers of posts and you're OK, but I put out a percentage number that has been a standard in the MMO industry for years, and has been verified by Dev's with major MMO's (roughly 5-10%), and I'm Ignorant?

 

Look...if you like PvP and you'd like the dev's to spend more time on PvP development, then I can appreciate that. like I said, I don't dislike PvP. But when you put up an arbitrary number that has no proven correlation to the facts whatsoever, and then state it as you're reason for telling the Dev's they should just drop PvE and do PvP full time....man, I certainly hope you understand how that makes you look.

 

Without evidence it means nothing. The metric I used may be flawed (which I admit in the first post), but at least it is backed up by irrefutable evidence. You have provided none. You stated your opinion (until you post a link to a major MMO dev stating that it is 5-10% it is ONLY your opinion and nothing more).

[TUXs]

If you are refuting his data then the burden of proof IS on you. You can say "He is wrong" all you like, but without any evidence to back it up the you are spitting in the rain. His original claim of "Between 5 and 10 % of game players use the forums" is a statement that has been around a long time. That does not mean it is accurate, but it is used by many, many people and therefore is the starting point for his belief. I do not know if it is accurate or not, but I think that it is probably closer to the truth than a statement that "65% of players use the forums" (No, no one said that, I use it as an example).

 

And the number of people using the forums is at the heart of this discussion. You are pulling numbers from sections of the forums and comparing them to each other. That is a good way to draw a conclusion, but it is only PART of the info you need to make an ACCURATE statement.

 

With the info that you have listed (number of posts in each section), all you can really say is "Based on the number of posts in these areas of the forums; More people are interested in talking about PvP related issues than they are in OP/FP/Mission related issues. But you went 1 step further and made the conclusion that "This means that people care more about PvP than PvE."

 

But, if the actual number of people using the forums is 5% of the playerbase, then the 25,000 people on the forums (estimate based on 500,000 subs) are NOT a valid % of the playerbase to base policy decisions on. That (IMO) is the core of the disagreement to the OP. If the % of the playerbase using the forums is, in fact, near or above 50% then your original statement holds a lot more weight.

 

In just 2009, SOE reported that 65% of all SWG players used their forums.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/post/3197726#3197726

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2114515

[veyl]

Very interesting info, but the point others have been making in this thread is not about the number of people subscribing/logging in, it is about the % of people that use the forums. That does not make your data any less interesting, but it does not speak to the point that people were debating.

 

Pvp whining happens a hell of a lot more.. which leads into arguments... which leads into troll flame wars... which leads into even more immaturity. Lets also not forget that most of these posts are not long, well informed//educated reasoning for why their pvp class is better than the others. It's one to two sentences of "NERF MARAUDERS // PTS NEW FOTM WAH, NOOBS" etc...etc. That's why you see so much more.

 

the PVE whining...is usually being annoyed with a bug that is still occurring in the game // flashpoint // operation. Or major issues in any of the above that they DEMAND to be fixed IMMEDIATELY by Bioware. These folks are far in the minority of who comes to post here because once they've seen something posted about the bug, what else is there to say? It's the same bug, there's no reason to post. You'll also see threads about class imbalances and how they're not performing where they should be, however, that's also usually PVP fueled.

 

@the OP. This game was never designed with PVP first in line. Hell, they didn't even bring up PVP until 7 months before release. (And pvp in beta was in extremely bad shape on Ilum ). The story .. PVE... always was higher on the priority list and should stay there. Hardcore PvP'ers will -always- complain and whine until they move to the next game to "own some noobs" because this game's pvp is 'dead // boring'.

[Hessen]

Without evidence it means nothing. The metric I used may be flawed (which I admit in the first post), but at least it is backed up by irrefutable evidence. You have provided none. You stated your opinion (until you post a link to a major MMO dev stating that it is 5-10% it is ONLY your opinion and nothing more).

 

Wrong metrics are not better than opinions, simply because they contain numbers.